345 réponses à ce sujet

[darkdruid117]

Scire The Warden wrote...



Technically, a potato is a tuber, which is  a vegetable. 

Thanks for that bit of knowledge, I always wondered why a potato was considered a vegatable...:happy:

[darkdruid117]

Tleining wrote...

my two cents: I thought it was weird, that the protheans would build that many statues of themselves in so many places. It's not one group of statues, but the whole place (illos) is full of them. Kinda struck me as odd, would make more sense if those statues were gods or something like that.
...

Actually we do build statues of ourselves and more often than not they are status of famus people that did something grand, like invent a car, a better light bulb, etc.

[loudent3]

I've been out of this thread for a while, so want to respond to an earlier part of the coversation



Specifically regarding the prothean beacon showing what prothean's look like. The response is that the prothean beacons were actually displaying a "collector" and they may be rigth, but that doesn't change the facts. Collector's were repurposed over the course of centuries. I daresay any collector that was around when a prothean was alive to make the beacon, was less a collector and more likelu just indoctrinated. I suspect that collector's, at that point, look like protheans as much as husks look like humans.

[binaryemperor]

DuffyMJ wrote...

SelphieSK wrote...

They do look like that. You get a vision on an N7 mission where you see them.

That was a Prothean beacon warning about the Collectors... The image in the beacon comes in substitution for the final sequence of the original mass effect vision which was a reaper attacking.  Instead of a reaper attacking we see the collectors: the end results of all that machine churning and grinding and tinkering wtih flesh.  It was likely sent by protheans towards the end of the long 300 year extermination process when collectors probably started kidnapping the remaining protheans to attempt to build the failed prothean reaper.

I thought since the beacon transmitted to a person's memory, I figured Shepard just replaced his old idea of what the Protheans looked like with the Collectors, so seeing the vision again with a beacon, he saw collectors instead of Protheans due to his memory of them changing.

[Malastare-]

Okay, guys, some basic biology knowledge would be helpful here:

Melisenta wrote...

And I have a question for you... Do you actually listen to what NPCs tell you ingame? Because EDI clearly states, that Protheans were altered to the point where ONLY ONE STRAND of DNA remained Prothean. ONE STRAND.

No.

EDI says that the Collectors have three less chromosomes.

Collectors and Protheans use a quad-strand DNA system.  You can see a diagram of it on the console in the Collector ship.  The number of strands in their DNA system has no bearing on the number of chromosomes.  Humans (and all life on our planet, save a number of families of viruses) use double-stranded DNA.  All eukaryotes (protists, fungi, plants, animals) use this double-stranded DNA, but have differing numbers of chromosomes.  Some have only one, some over a hundred.  Quad-stranded DNA does not mean four chromosomes.

Furthermore, even suggesting that an organism's genome uses only single-stranded DNA suggests very little knowledge about how DNA even works.  A ssDNA genome would be horribly fragile and no complex organism could even hopeto multiply.  The reason we have a double-helix of DNA is because it stabilizes the DNA and provides a "backup" for repairing damage (among other things).

WarmachineX0 wrote...

Quite frankly, yes. Humans have 12
strands of DNA

Not quite.  Humans have twenty-six contiguous strands of DNA in their genome (well, twenty-seven if you count the mitochondria, which you should).  These are the chromosomes mentioned.  Chimpanzees have two more chromosomes (since chromosomes 2A and 2B in chimps are fused into chromosome 2 in humans).   This simple change is enough to separate the two species.  A very small number of changes (taken in context) is all that separates humans and chimps, yet the two are quite easy to identify, even if we consider the viewpoint of an alien who knows nothing of earth.

The thought of removing two whole chromosomes and drastically changing those which remain would have obvious, dramatic effects in our DNA system.  I can't imagine that a quad-strand system is any different.  Dropping two chromosomes and adding multiple changes would put you on the same order of difference between a human and a raccoon.

It's not unbelieveable at all that the two species (because its obvious that Collectors and Protheans are separate species) would have such dramatic differences in appearance given the data we're told by EDI and Mordin and what we know about genetics on our world.

Modifié par Malastare-, 12 février 2010 - 08:34 .

[Malastare-]

lltoon wrote...

The collectors only share a SINGLE strand of DNA with the Protheans. That doesn't make them Prothean.

Could someone please point me to the source of this fact?  For someone who actually understands what DNA is, it's pretty nonsensical.

[Garuda One]

Malastare- wrote...

lltoon wrote...

The collectors only share a SINGLE strand of DNA with the Protheans. That doesn't make them Prothean.

Could someone please point me to the source of this fact?  For someone who actually understands what DNA is, it's pretty nonsensical.

Check out the Sticky on this forum, its on the list titled EDI and Mordin talk about Collectors

[Malastare-]

Garuda One wrote...

Malastare- wrote...

lltoon wrote...

The collectors only share a SINGLE strand of DNA with the Protheans. That doesn't make them Prothean.

Could someone please point me to the source of this fact?  For someone who actually understands what DNA is, it's pretty nonsensical.

Check out the Sticky on this forum, its on the list titled EDI and Mordin talk about Collectors

Right.  Except that's not at all what EDI says.  She says that three chromosomes have been removed.  That is in absolutely no way similar to changing three strands of a quad-strand DNA system.

Is there anywhere that says that only one strand of the Prothean DNA was remaining?  If there is a mention of it in the game it is a failure of the writers.  I'm leaning toward the belief that people commenting here just have very little knowledge of common biology.

[Garuda One]

Malastare- wrote...

Garuda One wrote...

Malastare- wrote...

lltoon wrote...

The collectors only share a SINGLE strand of DNA with the Protheans. That doesn't make them Prothean.

Could someone please point me to the source of this fact?  For someone who actually understands what DNA is, it's pretty nonsensical.

Check out the Sticky on this forum, its on the list titled EDI and Mordin talk about Collectors

Right.  Except that's not at all what EDI says.  She says that three chromosomes have been removed.  That is in absolutely no way similar to changing three strands of a quad-strand DNA system.

Is there anywhere that says that only one strand of the Prothean DNA was remaining?  If there is a mention of it in the game it is a failure of the writers.  I'm leaning toward the belief that people commenting here just have very little knowledge of common biology.

Hmm ok, where exactly does she state it, Id be happy to post it and even look for it for you if you can give me level and cutscene or in-game

[Tleining]

darkdruid117 wrote...

Tleining wrote...

my two cents: I thought it was weird, that the protheans would build that many statues of themselves in so many places. It's not one group of statues, but the whole place (illos) is full of them. Kinda struck me as odd, would make more sense if those statues were gods or something like that.
...

Actually we do build statues of ourselves and more often than not they are status of famus people that did something grand, like invent a car, a better light bulb, etc.

yeah, so? How does that contradict my statement? I specifically pointed out "many". If someone would pay money to have ten statues of Michael Jackson (or some other famous person) build and put in the same place, would you find that normal? Or would it be odd? How about 50 Statues, placed in groups or at random points in L.A. (or so). Normal or odd?

[Yukon Jake]

I find it hard to believe that Protheans and Collectors share physical characteristics.



The vision from the N7 mission beacon was showing that there was a connection between the Protheans and Collectors--not that they look the same. Even your Salarian crew member confirms this by saying that there is very little Prothean left in a Collector since they, much like the Keepers, had be tailored genetically and modified with tech to carry out the Reapers whims.



Of course there is a chance they do look the same, but I believe that chance is very small.

[Kit-Kat-Kun]

Tleining wrote...

darkdruid117 wrote...

Tleining wrote...

my two cents: I thought it was weird, that the protheans would build that many statues of themselves in so many places. It's not one group of statues, but the whole place (illos) is full of them. Kinda struck me as odd, would make more sense if those statues were gods or something like that.
...

Actually we do build statues of ourselves and more often than not they are status of famus people that did something grand, like invent a car, a better light bulb, etc.

yeah, so? How does that contradict my statement? I specifically pointed out "many". If someone would pay money to have ten statues of Michael Jackson (or some other famous person) build and put in the same place, would you find that normal? Or would it be odd? How about 50 Statues, placed in groups or at random points in L.A. (or so). Normal or odd?

The Prothean's culture was radicly different from humans. Who knows why they put statues there. It could be a rite of passage for every prothean, it could be one statue for every prothean killed in wars, we simply dont (cant?) know why due to differences in cultures.

Unless a codex or something spells it out for us.

Modifié par Kit-Kat-Kun, 12 février 2010 - 09:07 .

[GnusmasTHX]

loudent3 wrote...

I've been out of this thread for a while, so want to respond to an earlier part of the coversation

Specifically regarding the prothean beacon showing what prothean's look like. The response is that the prothean beacons were actually displaying a "collector" and they may be rigth, but that doesn't change the facts. Collector's were repurposed over the course of centuries. I daresay any collector that was around when a prothean was alive to make the beacon, was less a collector and more likelu just indoctrinated. I suspect that collector's, at that point, look like protheans as much as husks look like humans.

The Prothean extinction took place over a very long span of time, I've heard somewhere up to 1000 years. As far as I remember, Vigil only mentions that the extermination of a race takes a while, implying some many years.

Also, the exterior would've been the most advantageous thing to change first, if they wanted to use Collector's as shock troopers against Protheans. Then the brain for higher function, and then the organs to optimize efficiency.

[Malastare-]

Garuda One wrote...

Malastare- wrote...

Right.  Except that's not at all what EDI says.  She says that three chromosomes have been removed.  That is in absolutely no way similar to changing three strands of a quad-strand DNA system.

Is there anywhere that says that only one strand of the Prothean DNA was remaining?  If there is a mention of it in the game it is a failure of the writers.  I'm leaning toward the belief that people commenting here just have very little knowledge of common biology

Hmm ok, where exactly does she state it, Id be happy to post it and even look for it for you if you can give me level and cutscene or in-game

Its right at the start of the link you gave me from the sticky (Nice sticky, by the way).  The cutscene where you first come across the Collector experiment in the Collector ship.  Looking through the rest of what  Mordin says, I find zero references to any mention of three strands of DNA.  It has to be EDI's mention of the three missing chromosomes that people are getting stuck on.

[Tleining]

@ Kit-Kat-Kun

That was my original point. We just don't know what these statues are. Saying they represent the Protheans, so the Protheans must look like that, is a theory, nothing more. The Codex entries reveal either things that or common knowledge in the galaxy (like how the geth were created) or things you learn first-hand in game. That is why the entry on Sovereign says nothing about him being a reaper. It is not common knowledge. So why is it wrong for people to develop more theories on what the Protheans really looked like? Until one of the devs states that the Protheans looked like that, we don't know for sure.

Something else to think about. If it really was that clear, that the Protheans looked like the statues, why didn't we see the true Form of Vigil? He would have looked like the protheans.

I very much hope that Bioware has a few surprises like that left for ME3.

[Garuda One]

Malastare- wrote...

Garuda One wrote...

Malastare- wrote...

Right.  Except that's not at all what EDI says.  She says that three chromosomes have been removed.  That is in absolutely no way similar to changing three strands of a quad-strand DNA system.

Is there anywhere that says that only one strand of the Prothean DNA was remaining?  If there is a mention of it in the game it is a failure of the writers.  I'm leaning toward the belief that people commenting here just have very little knowledge of common biology

Hmm ok, where exactly does she state it, Id be happy to post it and even look for it for you if you can give me level and cutscene or in-game

Its right at the start of the link you gave me from the sticky (Nice sticky, by the way).  The cutscene where you first come across the Collector experiment in the Collector ship.  Looking through the rest of what  Mordin says, I find zero references to any mention of three strands of DNA.  It has to be EDI's mention of the three missing chromosomes that people are getting stuck on.

Hmm, ok. Listen if theres anything you need, message me, Ill find it and post it on that sticky.

[darkdruid117]

Tleining wrote...

darkdruid117 wrote...

Tleining wrote...

my two cents: I thought it was weird, that the protheans would build that many statues of themselves in so many places. It's not one group of statues, but the whole place (illos) is full of them. Kinda struck me as odd, would make more sense if those statues were gods or something like that.
...

Actually we do build statues of ourselves and more often than not they are status of famus people that did something grand, like invent a car, a better light bulb, etc.

yeah, so? How does that contradict my statement? I specifically pointed out "many". If someone would pay money to have ten statues of Michael Jackson (or some other famous person) build and put in the same place, would you find that normal? Or would it be odd? How about 50 Statues, placed in groups or at random points in L.A. (or so). Normal or odd?

Someone is a little touchy. If you want examples, check out the war memorials in DC, statues that at first glance look as if they were placed all over the place at random to an outsider, however the context of their placement makes sense to us. The same could be true for their random statues. And the statues were of Michael Jackson, yes, it would be odd if not a bit creepy.

[Tleining]

I'm touchy by replying and asking for clarification?  right.

The War Memorials are a good point, i've never seen them in person, so i didn't think about that.
I still hope, that it isn't that easy. No one knows anything about the Protheans, but statues of them are standing around like that?
either way, i still think it's odd, and i hope we receive some more information about this in ME3. After all, we (Shepard) have the Cipher, so we should understand more about the protheans than anyone else.

[Lord_Metal666]

That ship at 1:50 looks like the Pillar of Autumn. I smell a conspiracy.

[GnusmasTHX]

Here's what the vision shows, a Prothean, and then a Collector stamped over it:

[Zayin]

Wynne wrote...

Thanks for what you said, Zayin; very interesting stuff. I have a lot of faith in the writers for this... I think they've had a lot planned since the beginning and that the third game is going to contain a lot of payoff from the first two. I sorta love the "Gondor Calls of Aid" thing in this context... it feels right after ME2.

That idea about the Sol System Relay being a temporary refuge is very interesting... and I remember that vision on the one planet in ME1 that seemed to imply the Protheans were watching us in ancient times. The idea that they have hidden connections to humanity... I *love* that, I really do.

I doubt the Protheans of today would be anything much like their predecessors... it would be poignant to meet them if it were viable. I do also treasure that feeling of tragedy, but I think it would remain if the Ilos researchers still died never knowing their species survived in some form and the Prothean descendants were from other groups, and especially since the descendants would have probably altered in ways from the original. So we'd still never meet a truly "real Prothean" most likely, but more like a shadow of them. I think that could be interesting. I'm not fully sure whether I'd want it to happen or not, but part of me wants it.

So yeah, I totally get the of two minds bit--I'm right there with ya. I'm sure wherever they're going with this, I'm going to love it. This universe they've created is so brilliant.

While I could have responded to more of the info in your post (and the posts that followed), I'll leave it with this short thought.  (A friend said that my other thought out posts on this situation were TMI for most people to want to read through...)

http://social.biowar...index/1156409/1 

IF any Prothean refugees survived and rebuilt their culture in hiding, they would NOT be the same Sociologically and Culturally speaking.  Not only is there 50,000 year "social drift" in norms, but suriving a cosmic horror near-extincition event would almost overwhelmingly drive these Protheans into an isolationist stance.  Regardless of racial memory, whether it be internal genetics or culturally external, any Neo-Protheans will likely be remarkably different.

Their ancestors saw how the trap was sprung and were likely smart enough to figure out that records in the Citadel were used to track down and harvest worlds.  (This was the race that constructed the Conduit after all.)  Protheans as they were cease to be and you have what I will call "Neo-Protheans." 

Best chance of survival?  Total isolationist perspective.  Stay off the radar and records.  Best chance for that?  Stay isolated in whatever uncharted system they found.  Sadly, this would mean a highly militant territorial stance on anything encroaching in their space.  This option means that finding/meeting these Neo-Protheans ends in either forced imprisonment within their sector(s) or being attacked by them so you can't tell anyone about them.  The latter option is probably the most plausible condition to expect.

What about a Militant stance for revenge or to ensure survival in a combat?  These Neo-Protheans would have to build up armaments and technology to the point of being able to fight back and win.  Anything less is extinction and wastes their miracle surival of the last cycle.  Upside, they would have a "free ride" to research and test through Reaping cycles as long as they stayed hidden.  Downside to this, eventually you'd have to come out to test weapons, stealth technology or whatever else they devised which is a very risky task. 

Depending on how memory worked with the Protheans, a more militant stance could arise over the millenia.  IF the Prothean race had some measure of genetic memory as evidenced by the Rachni, then it's probably a toss-up over whether or not a more militant stance could arise.  In a nutshell, if Shepard meets Neo-Protheans in ME3, they will likely NOT be happy to see him or Shepard will quickly regret meeting them.

Edit:  The Cipher within Shepard's mind is the only chance he'd have at any sort of peaceful situation ... and that is assuming that the Neo-Prothean culture hadn't changed so much in the last 50,000 years that the information on language would still work.  Basic simplistic example:  Look at how the English language has changed from the tale of Beowulf to Shakespeare to UnitedStates/England in the 21st Century. 

Edit 2:  Ok, so it's not that short a thought. 

Modifié par Zayin, 13 février 2010 - 01:06 .

[Bazak]

ok first of all im not insulting anyone not once did i call anyone stupid if you took that away from the fact that i dont agree with you well im sorry and insulting me saying i have a poor knowledge of the in game world , realy? every forum i look at there are people like this getting frustrated and resorting to insults, i refuse to do this and will leave with one last statement

there are many small minor differences in what you say was said in the game and what happened but there are enough of them to make you have a reasonable chance of being wrong, (see im not saying you are wrong im saying you have about as much chance of being right as me and the fact that people are forceing their idea of what a prothean looks like on everybody else is part of why i posted here in the first place).

second EDI never said they tried and failed at a prothean reaper when i played through it. if she did for you well ok, but i have yet to hear it and everything i have seen leads me to believe the collectors look exactly like the protheans did.

i will not post in this thread again but i will continue to read it and hope people stop fighting about it. 

[newcomplex]

Garuda One wrote...

Hmm, ok. Listen if theres
anything you need, message me, Ill find it and post it on that sticky.

Taken right from your thread, you yourself posted.   lol.

Differences are, and I quote

"But their are signs of extreme alteration. Three fewer chromosomes, removed heterochromatin structure, elimination of superfluous junk DNA"

(Heterochromatin are mainly responsible for regulating the intergrity of the information contained in dna and chromosomes, which would be superflous because the collectors no longer reproduce through natural means, and no longer undergo natural mutations)

Later, mordin elaborates on consequences "No digestive system, replaced by tech, no glands, replaced by tech", "no soul, replaced by tech" (probably referring to consciousness and higher order though processes).

Absolutely nothing about "only a single strand of DNA remains" (which is completely nonsensical anyway, unless 4 strand DNA is completely alien and no analogues to our owne binary helix, as our other strand acts as a chemical mirror of our first strand to facilitate reproduction and writing tRNA.    It would be impossible to change on strand, and not the other).


The effects of having 4 strands of DNA would probably be that the DNA would be that mutations occur in a much more limited and controllable fashion, possibly why construction of a Prothean reaper, according to EDI, failed.   Of course, thats just applying logic, I'm nobiology major.

edit:   Actually, I think it would drastically increase the effect of mutations, as now the transcriptor polymerase has to read doulbe the amount of information, and produce a result, doubling the margin of error.

No clue.    Go ask a actual scientist or proffesor lol.    

Modifié par newcomplex, 13 février 2010 - 06:43 .

[Tooneyman]

I