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Something Not Quite Right with the Mass Effect Universe.


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#101
Andorfiend

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dan107 wrote...

Alright, for arguement's sake, let's assume that there will still be a need for an army-like structure to impose order as opposed to destroy outright. (Although then it's more of a police force, but that's where modern armies seem to be going anyway). The question is then how efficient are human beings (or similar creatures) in terms of combat effectiveness? A soldier's primary purpose is to deliver a weapon into a position from which it can effectively neutralize the enemy, and to fire that weapon. In the most advanced technologies, the human being is rapidly becoming the limiting factor.

Case in point - fighter jets. We are more or less seeing the last manned fighters being produced right now. Practically all research funding is going into UAVs. There is virtually nothing that a UAV controlled by a technician on the other side of the world can't do that a manned figher plane can. But UAVs are much cheaper and have the potential to be much more maneuverable and effective, since their design doesn't have to take into account not killing the pilot. How long before this is true for naval ships? Tanks? Trucks? How long before it's possible to build a remotely controlled robot that's capable of physically carrying out all the primary functions of a foot soldier? How long before it's cheaper to build and deploy such robots than it is to train and deploy live soldiers?

Now apply that to space, where supporting a living breathing human being is several orders of magnitude more expensive than it is on earth. The most that you're looking at in terms future space armies are robots that are remotely controlled by engineers from a nearby location. Certainly not crewed combat ships and space marines. (And that's leaving aside the implications of AIs and VIs. If we get to the point where a robot can not only carry out physical functions in battle, but can make better combat decisions than human beings, that changes the dynamic even further.)


You greatly underestimate what a soldier's job is. A soldier does not merely carry a gun into position so that it can do its job. He needs to be able to asses the situation in real time and accurately determine what is a friendly unit, a neutral one, and a hostile one. He needs to be able to tell the difference, at a glance, between an armed hostile wearing a turban and a bandana and a helpless civillian wearing a burka. No robot we are even close to developing can do that job. Nor are we close to producing a robot that has anything even close to the in the field endurance of a human. He also needs to be able to dig a trench, help build a school, guard a post, rescue a dog, etc etc etc.

Theoretically we could have tele-operated combat waldos, but any remote operation technology is subject to jamming, interference and hacking, none of which is a problem for the human soldier. In an age of high speed information warfare a human presence in the loop becomes more critical, not less.

UAV combat aircraft are practical because air combat is so much simpler that ground combat is several important ways that all relate to the type of decision making that humans are good at and robots suck at.. Ground combatants do not have predicatble outlines and IFF transponders.

As far as AI autonomous robotic ground troops, they exist in the ME universe. They are called Geth. 

Amazingly, everyone else is sticking to organic ground troops. Image IPB

Modifié par Andorfiend, 10 février 2010 - 10:24 .


#102
Jzadek72

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FlashedMyDrive wrote...

Shinigami013 wrote...

Lukertin wrote...

Maybe it's the whole biotics thing which is basically space magic?

The technology in Halo (except for slipspace) is based on current technology only fast-forwarded 200 years so the developments are 'believable'. (edit: ME does a good job at this as well, not denigrating the tech aspect of ME, but the whole biotics thing requires some suspension of disbelief)

The Human brain uses 10% of its potiental. With the full 100% who knows what it could do?


Oh my god, people need to stop perpetuating this myth. Humans use 100% of their brain.

http://en.wikipedia....%_of_brain_myth


I mean damn, there is an entire wikipedia article dedicated to it...


Exactly. Evolution or God, however you look at it, it is still a total waste of energy to sustain a brain that uses so little of it's power. It's like buying a supercomputer to play pong.

#103
sergio71785

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The Asari are also another issue. On the one hand, they're there to appeal to the teenage-to-middle aged male demographic, as the exotic and somewhat promiscuous aliens; like the twi'leks from Star Wars.

But on the other hand, they're also a major player in the galaxy's politics, they live to become these supposed ancient and wise people, and they're one of the most advanced aliens in the game's universe.

These two aspects of them just clash and don't work right, if you ask me. The Asari should've been split into two aliens. The ones who are advanced and major players in the galaxy's, and the ones who are there to dance and be eye candy for the game's primary demographic.

Modifié par sergio71785, 10 février 2010 - 10:29 .


#104
blank1

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Space Shot wrote...

blank1 wrote...
Take traveling outside the solar system for example... impossible.


The Voyager probes beg to differ.


blank1 wrote...
 Travel to other solar systems will never happen. Ever.


The eternal cry of the unambitious, the unimaginative, and frankly the ignorant.  The limitations of todays technology or society do not extend to all future possibilities because we do not have any sort of basis from which to judge that which we honestly do not know because our current perspective is so bloody limited.

Regardless, even without FTL travel, full galactic colonization is still within the realm of physical possibility (estimated min of 1.5 million years for monophyletic colonization of every star under known physical limiations), only on a different time scale as what "restrictions" there are move the process of interstellar travel from a few moments to a few decades/centuries.  While a "Mass Effect" or "Halo" type universe would, in this case, be impossible, that isn't to say that our species' existence will continue to be a global one (especially with the possibilities of intra-solar colonization.)   Even then, we probably won't kill ourselves off either as resource limitations (supplemented by technology) naturally control and moderate population growth and decline without the need for exorbitant resource driven conflicts (which are much more economical than military, in any case.)


Don't be so nitpicky, I know Voyager is out of the Solar system -- but in a realistic "We're going to turn the galaxy into the 51st state!" way.

I also enjoy how you disagreed with me by not really saying anything. Do you just like the sight of your own text?

Extra-Solar colonization is flat out impossible given the limitations of technology. The power necessary to bend space-time to the extent that we want, if space-time even works that way (Since we cannot observe gravity, only its symptoms), is a downright impossible number. Flat out acceleration has major issues as well -- your mass proportionally increases as your velocity approaches light speed. At light speed, your mass becomes infinite. Massive. Organ. Failure. Even if we could create a gravitational well strong enough to bend a specific point in space-time to our own front door, there isn't a shortcut we could take to just skip over the bend -- we still travel along the chronological plane of space-time.

FTL = impossible. Extra-solar colonazation, outside of some ridiculous "cryo freeze" and hoping to all that is holy that we end up in a solar system with a habitable planet (Only to be faced with zero immunity to its microbes and even more certain death) = impossible. We're in this solar system for good, basically.

Modifié par blank1, 10 février 2010 - 10:37 .


#105
toezz

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100 years ago we didn't have TV or computers

Now our lives depend on it, and we all take it for granted not even questioning the tech.



What do we know about future tech and discoveries?

a 100-200 years from now people would maybe laugh at our ignorance and denial.



Who are we to say what the future brings? let me tell you that ONE man made a significant change to the coarse of science with one little equation E=cm2

and that was one man(!) Who's to say that won't happen again? We know so insanely little about our capabilities and limits, and almost everything we know is based of theory.



You people who say "It's never gonna happen, it's impossible." how can you be sure? if you take humans evolvement trough the last 1000 years, or heck, the last 100 years?



It's when you think outside the box you get results as a scientist.

#106
blank1

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I think that's a poor argument to justify that there might be some way to colonize extra-solar planets.



Just because we are not aware of what tech advancements there will be in the next few centuries, does not mean that we can't set obvious limits based off of the laws of physics. There isn't going to be some magic device, where you press a button, enter into a different dimension, and get arrive at another planet. Surviving the gravity of a wormhole is impossible, if wormholes even exist. Creating a gravity well powerful enough to be a black hole would spell certain doom for the human race as well.



I enjoy the freedom we have in sci-fi, but I understand that not even the concepts are remotely possible.

#107
DeathsHands5

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That's the point in the 'fi' in sci-fi. It doesn't always have to make sense.

#108
Few87

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The mass effect universe seems more real than any other sci fi. Even though it is obviously not how the future would be. I mean all sentient life are basicly humanoid animals that share the current values of western human civilization. yeah right....

Modifié par Few87, 10 février 2010 - 10:56 .


#109
Few87

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Having said that though I do really love these games and the universe they are set in :)

#110
wulf3n

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Everyone used to think Newtons laws were the s**t until Einstein came along and said well they work, but they're not correct. I wonder how long it will be before another scientist comes along and says well Einsteins theory works, but its not correct.



I guess what im trying to say is that any "Theory" based upon other "Theories" is doomed to fail. IMO anyways

#111
blank1

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wulf3n wrote...

Everyone used to think Newtons laws were the s**t until Einstein came along and said well they work, but they're not correct. I wonder how long it will be before another scientist comes along and says well Einsteins theory works, but its not correct.

I guess what im trying to say is that any "Theory" based upon other "Theories" is doomed to fail. IMO anyways


Newton's theories weren't "sh*t," they were just special cases of Einstein's. Perhaps something will happen in the far, far future to prove that Einstein's theories are a special case of someone else's... but the necessary technology to observe that would be technology that is would need to apply the concepts of something it hasn't yet discovered... aka impossible.

This is why we have video games like ME guys... it's never going to really happen, but it's nice to imagine.

Modifié par blank1, 10 février 2010 - 11:03 .


#112
Guest_Luc0s_*

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The mass effect theory from Mass Effect is actually based on the stringtheory, where the theoretical idea of a mass effect field is similar to the Higgs field, that's created by the higgs-boson particle.

The Large Hadron Collider in Switserland is build to study this theory. They hope to create a situation that's kinda similar to Mass Effect's mass effect field. That way the higg-boson particle should reveal itself with a certain mass.

In Mass Effect, they go furter with this idea. In the Mass Effect story, they use mass effect to manipulate the bosons in our universe through the higgsfield, that way they should be able to create a 4rd-dimensional, mass-free path in the space-time, in order to instandly warp from location A to location B through the 4rd-dimensional path.

I'm not an Einstein, but I've studied physics for 2 years and I'm pretty sure this is it.
I know there is a codex in ME1 and ME2 which explains exactly this, but with different words (they talk about element zero which is actually based on the higgs-boson particle) and I think my explanation is an easier-to-understand version of it.

So yeah, don't say that the theories used in Mass Effect are impossible, because if we discover an actual real life sample of a higgs-boson particle, an interstellar future might get closer to reality than you might  think...

Modifié par Luc0s, 10 février 2010 - 11:13 .


#113
wulf3n

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blank1 wrote...

Newton's theories weren't "sh*t,"


I didn't mean they were, i was saying they were great at the time, bad use of english i guess.

It's just that there have been so many instances in the past where humans have thought they know everything, only to be proven that thier entire concept of reality is totally wrong. So to think that we know everything now is foolish.

eg.
     Earth revolved around sun = WRONG
     Earth Flat  = WRONG
im sure there are others just couldnt be bothered thinking of them right now.
    

#114
cache_monet2

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halo stole from so many great SF writers/novels it was laughable. Using the ring-world concept without giving Niven credit always pissed me off. Still a good game... At least the mass effect concept was a reasonably original spin on current sub-atomic theory. As far as believability? No more believable than middle earth..or star wars..but really...who cares...its escapism at its best.

#115
MediumD

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blank1 wrote...

Just because we are not aware of what tech advancements there will be in the next few centuries, does not mean that we can't set obvious limits based off of the laws of physics.


I think you should read some Michio Kaku. We have plausible physics for "impossible" devices such as warp drives and wormholes right now. We just need Kardashev Type II or III energies and engineering techniques (such as materials with negative mass...) to exploit them.

#116
Saurel

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GodWood wrote...

The only thing that I find somewhat ridiculous is the asari, a race of sexy, blue, bisexual, babes.
I simply tend to ignore I feel that way however.


yup asari are probably the problem, OP =]

#117
Sailears

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hubris0 wrote...

Hmm, for me one of the great things that makes ME so wonderful and immersive is that it is so believable. Despite what some posters have said, there's really no fantasy elements at all in the game, unlike nearly all modern SF. Pretty much all the Science Fiction, including FTL travel, FTL communications, biotics, kinetic barriers, artificial gravity, and weaponry all spring from the same source, the namesake of the series, the Mass Effect.

The application of positive or negative electric current to Element Zero increases or decreases mass, allowing the manipulation of items as small as a bullet, as large as a warship, or even of space-time itself. When eezo is manipulated by the nervous system, biotics emerges. Pretty much all the SF in the game is an application of the Mass Effect to existing technology. There are some extreme examples of AI and genetic engineering as well, but for the most part, it's amazing what a rich landscape Bioware has managed to eek out of one Science Fiction innovation.

One might argue that eezo itself is fantasy, but it's at least as feasible as hyperspace, nearly as feasible as warp drive, and far more so than transporters, replicators, telepathy, prescience, handheld energy weapons, and many other SF elements.

As for the society, it's elegant and dirty, civilized and brutal, artistic and violent, loving and murderous, at times extraordinary and at others deeply mundane. While I am infuriated at the gameplay elements used to woo shooter fans and I think the Bypass minigame is an abomination, if I had to pick one complaint with Mass Effect, it would be that the series isn't enough of a sandbox for me to explore to my contentment this amazing universe Bioware has created.


Well said, it does all hinge on eezo and the 'mass effect'.

#118
trigger2kill1

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The powers that be have been prepping us for invasion since well before we were kids. I for one hope that we can all come together as a race before the Martians come to suck out our brains with itsy-bitsy straws.

#119
Skilled Seeker

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wulf3n wrote...

blank1 wrote...

Newton's theories weren't "sh*t,"


I didn't mean they were, i was saying they were great at the time, bad use of english i guess.

It's just that there have been so many instances in the past where humans have thought they know everything, only to be proven that thier entire concept of reality is totally wrong. So to think that we know everything now is foolish.

eg.
     Earth revolved around sun = WRONG
     Earth Flat  = WRONG
im sure there are others just couldnt be bothered thinking of them right now.
    


The Earth doesn't revolve around the sun? Damn back to school for me! Image IPB

#120
vaesapiens

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I can belive quite everything, or close my eyes at some things, but really ...sound....in space? common.

#121
wulf3n

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Skilled Seeker wrote...

wulf3n wrote...

blank1 wrote...

Newton's theories weren't "sh*t,"


I didn't mean they were, i was saying they were great at the time, bad use of english i guess.

It's just that there have been so many instances in the past where humans have thought they know everything, only to be proven that thier entire concept of reality is totally wrong. So to think that we know everything now is foolish.

eg.
     Earth revolved around sun = WRONG
     Earth Flat  = WRONG
im sure there are others just couldnt be bothered thinking of them right now.
    


The Earth doesn't revolve around the sun? Damn back to school for me! Image IPB


lol, well i certainly feel stupid :blush:, probably should read over my posts before submitting them :lol:

#122
Andorfiend

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blank1 wrote...
Don't be so nitpicky, I know Voyager is out of the Solar system -- but in a realistic "We're going to turn the galaxy into the 51st state!" way.

I also enjoy how you disagreed with me by not really saying anything. Do you just like the sight of your own text?

Extra-Solar colonization is flat out impossible given the limitations of technology. The power necessary to bend space-time to the extent that we want, if space-time even works that way (Since we cannot observe gravity, only its symptoms), is a downright impossible number. Flat out acceleration has major issues as well -- your mass proportionally increases as your velocity approaches light speed. At light speed, your mass becomes infinite. Massive. Organ. Failure. Even if we could create a gravitational well strong enough to bend a specific point in space-time to our own front door, there isn't a shortcut we could take to just skip over the bend -- we still travel along the chronological plane of space-time.

FTL = impossible. Extra-solar colonazation, outside of some ridiculous "cryo freeze" and hoping to all that is holy that we end up in a solar system with a habitable planet (Only to be faced with zero immunity to its microbes and even more certain death) = impossible. We're in this solar system for good, basically.


I don't recall anyone claiming the galaxy will be the 51st state. Strawman arguement. Another poster cited 1,5 million years colonize the galaxy. Without FTL. Communication times of 100,000 years from one end of the galaxy to another preclude practical contact with your 'colonies' at the other end of the galaxy but that doesn't mean that opposite ends of the same galaxy can't or won't end up colonized by the same species. Or at least by species that share a common ancestor with some naked monkies who came from the 3rd rock out from a non-descript sun.

If you have infinite mass, organ failure is the least of your worries. But that's a garbage arguement too. You don't need FTL for interstellar colonization, just convenient communting. Let's suppose we have a space craft with a drive efficient enought to boost up to .5c and slow back down. Let's further suppose your fuel is something noce an easy to come by like hydrogen. Voila! You can now send out manned spacecraft capable of scouting local systems and returning within a single lifetime. That's not how you would do it of course. You'd send out robotic probes on one way outbound search courses designed to hit as many exo-systems as practical. They gather data and either tight-beam it back towards earth or drop off messenger rockets to bring back the data depending on which approach is more practical. Within 40 years you have scouted over 200 systems. The colony ships only need to survive a trip of 8 to 40 years. Most of the original crew will survive the trip. Not need for multi-generational ships.

This kind of tech is... what? 20 years away? I think a practical self-sustained fusion reactor would do it.

#123
HelterSkelter89

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Kosmiker wrote...

I love the ME universe, but I can understand that for some the lack of some "realistic" elements might give you that feeling, examples:

*NPCs don't walk, they are static in the same place everytime, everyday.

*All aliens speak english.

*There's not enough lore.

*Day/Night cycle doesn't occur in the same location.

*You can't go to the bathroom without bringing your squadmates with you, females included. If you want to take a dump, do it in the Normandy.


english speaking aliens is explained in game.

#124
sedrikhcain

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binaryemperor wrote...

It's more plausible than Star Wars.


Star Wars was never meant to be science fiction. It's actually fantasy, it's just set in space. Notice, there is never any attempt in any of the movies to explain how a lightsaber works, how the repulsor lift on luke's landspeeder works (heck, the term repulsor lift isn't even in the movies). A science fiction saga would've attempted explanations of all these things.

#125
sedrikhcain

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[

blank1 wrote...
Don't be so nitpicky, I know Voyager is out of the Solar system -- but in a realistic "We're going to turn the galaxy into the 51st state!" way.

I also enjoy how you disagreed with me by not really saying anything. Do you just like the sight of your own text?

Extra-Solar colonization is flat out impossible given the limitations of technology. The power necessary to bend space-time to the extent that we want, if space-time even works that way (Since we cannot observe gravity, only its symptoms), is a downright impossible number. Flat out acceleration has major issues as well -- your mass proportionally increases as your velocity approaches light speed. At light speed, your mass becomes infinite. Massive. Organ. Failure. Even if we could create a gravitational well strong enough to bend a specific point in space-time to our own front door, there isn't a shortcut we could take to just skip over the bend -- we still travel along the chronological plane of space-time.

FTL = impossible. Extra-solar colonazation, outside of some ridiculous "cryo freeze" and hoping to all that is holy that we end up in a solar system with a habitable planet (Only to be faced with zero immunity to its microbes and even more certain death) = impossible. We're in this solar system for good, basically.


"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". My all-time favorite quote. If you had told scholars just 300 years ago that we'd be able to talk to people on the other side of the earth, they would've laughed at you and produced all kinds of "indisputable facts" to prove that what you claimed was impossible. Yet here we are Skyping w/relatives like it's the Jetsons.

Today's impossible is tomorrow's old hat.