101 réponses à ce sujet

[phimseto]

My friend Tom made the choice to keep the collectors base last night and was dismayed to see that his crew was angry at him for it.  I received this post today in regards to his further deliberations on the matter.

My productivity for the day has been utter crap because I keep
thinking about my decision, which I guess means that ME2 is one great
game.
 
And I keep coming to the conclusion that I was right.  The Reapers
came within a hair's breadth of coming through the Conduit and
exterminating all sentient life in the galaxy.  I continued my fight
against the Reapers and paid for it by spending two years on an
operating table.  Once I came back, not only do I find out that
absolutely *nothing* has been done to prepare for the Reapers over the
last two years, the Citadel Council actually continues to deny that the
Reapers exist.

 
Eight Systems Alliance frigates and their crews sacrificed
themselves to save the Destiny Ascension and the Council from that
Reaper.  They deserve better than that.  To add insult to injury, once
the Systems Alliance's colonies start getting attacked, what support do
they get from the Council?  None.  Cerberus, a private entity, has to
step in.

 
That brings us to the Illusive Man.  Aside from my teammates, my
crew and Anderson, he's the only one who recognizes the threat.  Does
he have a hankerin' for galactic domination?  Of course!  Will he
misuse that Reaper technology?  Absolutely!

 
But keeping that base was still the right decision.
 
ARGUMENT 1:  The Collector Base is proof that the Reapers exist.
 
At the very least, we needed to keep the Collector Base intact as
something tangible, to prove that the Reapers are real.  Not enough of
Sovereign survived its destruction to prove the point, so I will lead
the Council on a guided tour of the Collector Base if that's what I
have to do to get them to wake up.  If that motivates them, they're
free to join the fight (but for reasons stated below, they will not
lead).

 
ARGUMENT 2:  What's good for Cerberus is good for the galaxy (at least for now).
 
One argument for destroying the Collector Base is that giving it
to Cerberus would make Cerberus more powerful.  However, Cerberus is
the only organization willing to do anything about the Reapers.  So how
is Cerberus becoming more powerful a bad thing?  We're all staring down
the barrel of a gun -- if someone is willing to snatch that gun away,
you can't concern yourself with what he might do with it later.  At
least you've bought yourself another breath.

 
ARGUMENT 3:  We've been using Reaper technology all along.
 
To those who say that the Reaper technology is too dangerous to
use, the Reapers built the Mass Relays, right?  The Reapers built the
Citadel too.  The only difference between that technology and the
Collector Base is that the Reapers WANTED us to have the Relays and the
Citadel.  The Reapers did NOT want us to have that Collector Base.  We
need to do the things that the sentient races did not do during the
previous 1,000 or so extinction cycles if we want to survive.  Fire can
be dangerous, but it can also be useful.  The same is true for any
tool.  This is the first tool that the Reapers would prefer us not to
have.

 
ARGUMENT 4:  No course of action is worse than inaction.

Now, here's the bad news for the non-human races. 
This tool belongs to Cerberus.  Tom Shepard gave the Citadel a chance
to lead, and they failed.  There is no indication that they will ever
be convinced.  Now it's Cerberus' chance, and we can't possibly do any
worse than the Citadel did.  The Reapers are coming; we could only
match the Council's failure by also doing nothing.

 
The Illusive Man was dead right when he said that we need each
other, because we're the only ones who understand.  All concerns are
secondary to the Reaper threat.  History shall vindicate me.

--Tom Shepard

[SarEnyaDor]

Although I agree that having proof to wave in the face of the stupid council would be great, I don't think it is worth the risk that the base poses.

edited because I submitted way too soon...

I also don't think staying on the Citadel now that we know about it is that great an idea, I think part of the reason that the Council WON'T believe is because they are being subtly influenced to think it is safe by the station itself. No, I have no real proof of that, but I think that whatever signal tells the Keepers what to do and when might have something to do with it. It just makes no sense for the Council to continue to say "Oh, there is no real problem here" over and over unless they are somehow being influenced.

Maybe I'm wrong about it being the Citadel doing it, maybe it is the Consort, or the Asari race in general, I don't know, but there is no logical reason for them to continue to hold their hands over their ears and scream "I'm not listening" unless they are somehow being influenced, IMHO.

The safest thing to do would be to reject ALL reaper technology and discover something unexpected, do something not based off of thier plans, something they haven't laid the foundations for.

Modifié par SarEnyaDor, 09 février 2010 - 11:27 .

[Internet Kraken]

All arguments that support keeping the base are rendered pointless when you consider the possibility of indoctrination, and how big of a problem that would be. It just doesn't seem like it would be worth the risk.

Modifié par Internet Kraken, 09 février 2010 - 11:24 .

[Malanek]

Keeping the base is the only sensible option IMO. You are about to face a largely unknown foe of greatly advanced technology. The collector base help you understand that technology a little bit better. The risk in keeping it is a lot less than the risk of facing the reapers without taking every advantage possible.

[cdtrk65]

Hmm...I thought the study of indoctrination would be an important part of defeating the reapers.



Shepard is going to have to figure out away to counter act it (or at least should), or else fight the people he has to save. That base seemed like the best way to go about it...to bad my shep blows it up...



Yeah critic the story any way you want Bioware certianly has me wondering if I made the right choice.. I couldn't trust Cerebrus's leadership enough to give them that kind of power...

[pelhikano]

Good argumentation, I felt the same way and I also kept thinking about it all day. Good job of summing it up.

[Scire The Warden]

Here's the thing.



A billion year old dead reaper could still indoctrinate people sent inside it, who knows what kind of defensive mechanisms the reapers put in the collector base?



Cerberus is an extremely militant faction, while they will be using the technology against the reapers, who's to say they won't also turn it against aliens?



If you wave it in the face of the Alliance as proof of existance, the Alliance will just storm the thing to prevent Cerberus from getting stronger, and that helps no one.



Back to the defensive mechanisms, i'm pretty sure that if we start using the technology on that ship the reapers will just turn it against us somehow.

[aksoileau]

I think there valuable data in that datapad Shep looks at in the final cutscene. It has a diagram of a reaper. Probably all sorts of tech. Keeping the base intact is like keeping a concentration camp open.

[this isnt my name]

I destroyed it, no point stopping the reapers just to get stabbed in the back.

[nelander30]

cruisers not frigates



Argument 1)

If a reaper was not enough proof that the reapers exists I don't think the base will do either, They are in denial so they prefer to believe that the geth built sovereign rather than the possibility reapers are real. Also TIM is not going to let the council near his new toy.



Argument 2)

what is good for Cerberus is good for Cerberus vision of humanity, they are willing to work with aliens as long as the bigger threat exists, after that, they are back to their original vision of human superiority. to quote Magan Kai Lee (Multireal by David louis, a good read) "that is a short term solutions for a long term problem"





Argument 3)

yes all tech has a danger level attached it to it, the question is if its acceptable, look at what happened with a dead reaper, you can bet the base is going to be even worse. Also you are correct they about the mass relays, but look what it meant to the protheans when the reapers got hold of the citadel, as legion and sovereign mention by using reaper tech the sapient races develop in a way that favors the reapers. I see this as a stronger reason not to use the base.



Argument 4)

it depends on you moral compass, for a paragon Shepard the statement is not true, there are actions that are worse than no actions, ie using Cerberus methods is inherently wrong, also destroying the base is not inaction, you are disrupting the enemies plans and denying them of a very valuable asset (not only the base but the use of collectors)



For me it really boils down to two issues, Shepard morality and his view/trust on TIM, also you have to remember Shepard is the definition of confidence, there is no doubt in his mind that he will find an alternative way to stop the reapers.

[nelander30]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

I think part of the reason that the Council WON'T believe is because they are being subtly influenced to think it is safe by the station itself.

Interesting theory, I agree it would explain a lot and it would fit reaper tech. In the other hand "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by
stupidity"

[Frotality]

Malanek999 wrote...

Keeping the base is the only sensible option IMO. You are about to face a largely unknown foe of greatly advanced technology. The collector base help you understand that technology a little bit better. The risk in keeping it is a lot less than the risk of facing the reapers without taking every advantage possible.

exactly. we would be lucky to come out with more than the dozen survivors the protheans had without every possible advantage, let alone survive at all. the possibilities are

1) keep base, risk living under cerberus empire, or have the tech blow up in our face at some point, but ultimately use it to survive the reapers

2) destroy it, come out with no new means to combat the reapers, a new enemy in cerberus further fragmenting your potential allies, reapers come and you die.

obvious choice to me logically

[Aynslie]

I figured the base's main function was to build a reaper. And when asked about cerberus "using the tech." (which I took to mean make another reaper since it's pretty obvious that is what the base was for) TIM just says hes willing to do WHATEVER it takes to protect humanity. Which I can see, which makes the decision hard, but I wasn't willing to destroy what it means to be human in the process of saving it. So bye bye Collector base in my game.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Cerebrus can't be trusted, simple as that.



You can only want to keep the base if you think Cerebrus can be trusted and/or want human racial superiority.

[jasonontko]

Internet Kraken wrote...

All arguments that support keeping the base are rendered pointless when you consider the possibility of indoctrination, and how big of a problem that would be. It just doesn't seem like it would be worth the risk.

Would you really rather wait until the reapers come to develope a counter measure to indoctriantion?  I say TIM is not stupid enough to get indoctrinated and will be smart enough to develope counter measures.  I sse this risk as an opportunity.

[Jeremy Winston]

I don't have the problem with the Council not believing it.



Seriously. Occam's Razor and all that. Having a sentient machine species that comes along every 50K years and wipes everything out? How space opera is that? Of course I wouldn't believe it. Unless someone can show me that Sovereign is too complex for the Geth, the most likely cause is that the Geth built it and this is just business as usual.



Indoctrination on the Citadel is unlikely, because it would have been so much simpler to indoctinate them to welcome Sovereign and his kind. The reapers are arrogant. They see no need to be subtle to their food.



However, I'm not convinced the physical Collector Base is any more convincing that EDI's data as well as personal, first-hand experiences of the entire Normandy crew.

[SarEnyaDor]

Besides, TIM would do WHATEVER it takes to win ... including killing millions of humans to have his own Reaper to fight the others.....

[Internet Kraken]

jasonontko wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

All arguments that support keeping the base are rendered pointless when you consider the possibility of indoctrination, and how big of a problem that would be. It just doesn't seem like it would be worth the risk.

Would you really rather wait until the reapers come to develope a counter measure to indoctriantion?  I say TIM is not stupid enough to get indoctrinated and will be smart enough to develope counter measures.  I sse this risk as an opportunity.

Wait, why would the Reapers develop a counter-measure to indoctrination?

Indoctrination has nothing to do with stupidity. Everyone can be a victim of it. Saren was smart. He tried to study indoctrination as well, and look at what happened to him. I can easily see the same thing happening to TIM. He has to much confidence. He claims Shepard is an idealist, yet he himself is being idealistic if he thinks he can manipulate and control Reaper technology.

Modifié par Internet Kraken, 10 février 2010 - 12:03 .

[blueTrance]

I can understand the reasoning of the Illusive Man to keep the collector base. Humanity still has it's back against the wall, and they need every advantage against the Reapers. However, Legion's argument made even more sense. Following the path the Reapers laid out for organics is less likely to lead to a favorable outcome. Humanity should evolve itself rather than scavenge the corpses of galactic civilizations the Reapers easily wiped out. 

Modifié par blueTrance, 10 février 2010 - 12:00 .

[nelander30]

jasonontko wrote...


I say TIM is not stupid enough to get indoctrinated and will be smart enough to develope counter measures.  I sse this risk as an opportunity.

Thats what Saren thought, as several people have already mentioned, it boils down into if shepard trust/share TIM vision of humanity. if he does, saving the base make sense, if not it is too dangerous to give it to TIM so destroying it is a better course of action

[Jeremy Winston]

Hey, I understand TIM as well... but, you know what? This is a space opera, and I'm the damn hero. That means I take the high road.



All I need to beat the reapers is a couple of thermal clips and my trusty gun.



I ain't worried.

[Undeath87]

Here is the question that tears me apart... noble intentions are all well and good, but we have systematically destroyed EVERYTHING that can help us understand and combat the Reapers. Sovereign, the derelict reaper, and now the base?



Add to it that we are but one more race in a galactic extinction cycle that has lasted MILLIONS of years... think on that. MILLIONS. The combined technology and innovation of millions of cultures could not stop the reapers. And we are next on the chopping block.



Principles are all well and good... but... they wont save us if the reapers come through and we are unprepared. Are you truly willing to risk the survival of an entire galaxy full of life just on principle? You are truly willing to risk dooming the galaxy to the fate of the Protheans? Being all but wiped from the pages of history, having our bones picked clean by the next species to evolve to complexity?



I'm sorry... but I cant choose personal principles over the survival of the entire galexy. Cerberus may be evil, they will most definetly misuse that power, but they will be less of a problem to deal with than the Reapers. The Reapers want to kill everything... Cerberus just wants to put humanity on top.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

It doesn't matter how intelligent you are, the Reapers are smarter, older, and will indoctrinate you when given the chance.



Cerebrus couldn't possibly understand the Reapers or the Collector technology.



Legion put it best when he said that the Old Machines control us by setting the path of our development, using Reaper technology is just asinine. They already understand their technology, uniting the galaxy is the smarter route. It is unpredictable and the Reapers already fear a united galaxy of sapient races.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Add to it that we are but one more race in a galactic extinction cycle that has lasted MILLIONS of years... think on that. MILLIONS. The combined technology and innovation of millions of cultures could not stop the reapers. And we are next on the chopping block.

All because they relied on the Mass Effect relays, we were only lucky that the Protheans had changed the Reapers, we were very lucky.

Principles are all well and good... but... they wont save us if the reapers come through and we are unprepared

I'd rather die following principles then surviving but also failing to see the horrendous long term result that would be a Human Empire on the galaxy.

'cuz I'm not a coward who whines "We're all gonna die!"

but they will be less of a problem to deal with than the Reapers.

Not really, already Shepard can't defeat Cerebrus. You're worried you can't beat Reaper tech? Well what makes you think you can defeat Cerebrus's Reaper tech that was apparently able to defeat the actual Reapers?

Modifié par Mikazukinoyaiba2, 10 février 2010 - 12:12 .

[Sidney]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...
Cerebrus couldn't possibly understand the Reapers or the Collector technology.

That collector weapon I'm firing at the end of the game says otherwise.

Blowing the statsion gets you zippo, zilch, zero, nada. Keeping gives you the chance of finding something useful. That means that something > nothing and something wins.