101 réponses à ce sujet

[ColJones]

The paragon choices added together from the first and second game will lead to an ending where power is equally distributed through the galaxy. All races on the council, humans well respected, even geth might come to help you (legion loyalty mission)



Renegade choices lead to power being centered solely on humanity.Sure paragons might not have the same technologies available to them but they will have much more support.



Either way you will have friends and enemies if you did your job right.

[jasonontko]

nelander30 wrote...

cruisers not frigates

Argument 1)
If a reaper was not enough proof that the reapers exists I don't think the base will do either, They are in denial so they prefer to believe that the geth built sovereign rather than the possibility reapers are real. Also TIM is not going to let the council near his new toy.

Argument 2)
what is good for Cerberus is good for Cerberus vision of humanity, they are willing to work with aliens as long as the bigger threat exists, after that, they are back to their original vision of human superiority. to quote Magan Kai Lee (Multireal by David louis, a good read) "that is a short term solutions for a long term problem"


Argument 3)
yes all tech has a danger level attached it to it, the question is if its acceptable, look at what happened with a dead reaper, you can bet the base is going to be even worse. Also you are correct they about the mass relays, but look what it meant to the protheans when the reapers got hold of the citadel, as legion and sovereign mention by using reaper tech the sapient races develop in a way that favors the reapers. I see this as a stronger reason not to use the base.

Argument 4)
it depends on you moral compass, for a paragon Shepard the statement is not true, there are actions that are worse than no actions, ie using Cerberus methods is inherently wrong, also destroying the base is not inaction, you are disrupting the enemies plans and denying them of a very valuable asset (not only the base but the use of collectors)

For me it really boils down to two issues, Shepard morality and his view/trust on TIM, also you have to remember Shepard is the definition of confidence, there is no doubt in his mind that he will find an alternative way to stop the reapers.

Argument 1) The council never had a chance to examine sovereign, so they had alot more room for denial then had it been captured which would be a more appropriate analogy.

Argument 2) Hey who said that saving the universe was not going to cost something and if there was a viable long term solution then we would no NEED a short term solution.

Argument 3) Reaper never meant for that base to fall in our hands, this is decidely outside there plans.  In fact I would say this the best opportunity to develope something they did not expect.  Also they were expect us to be several million years behind in technology, we just not going to catch up  to them in 10 years work on our own, (assuming they arrive while shep is still alive and reasonably young).

Augment 4)  Yes its a human juicer but its a high tech juicer.  TIM does not need it for juicing so he can build a sentient reaper, he just needs it to build a non-sentiant reaper ship or find a weakness which as far as I can tell  does not require human sacrfices to create, the base just needs them to create reaper contiousness which TIM does not need.  And if you argue that it is morally tainted, them poeple are dead and nothing you can do will bring them back, let not the dead rule the living.  And destorying the base is in action, basically means your rolling dice in hopes their is a more moral way to solve the problem.      

[Skilled Seeker]

Those who destroy it are either cowards or let their emotions get the better of them. Organic life won't get another chance to study Reaper tech, this is the only piece of tech that they were NOT meant to find (unlike the mass relays, citadel etc.) And thus I don't see how it would indocrinate since there in no danger of revolt there (the collecters are almost husks in that they don't have free will).

[Jeremy Winston]

You're all blowin' smoke.



Base.. no base.... Me. One thermal clip. Hand Cannon.



Start partying.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Sidney wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...
Cerebrus couldn't possibly understand the Reapers or the Collector technology.

That collector weapon I'm firing at the end of the game says otherwise.

You can copy plenty of things and still not understand all of its effects or necessary why it works.

Especially seeing how Cerebrus never did their own true modifications and just kept the same technology and design. They didn't know how else to incorporate it.

Just like how all Mass Effect engines are just a copy of the Reapers design and no one really has done anything new with them.

[Shock35]

keeping the base would seem like a logistics challenge for Cerberus. considering the only way into the base is through the same system as Omega...

[Undeath87]

Sidney wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...
Cerebrus couldn't possibly understand the Reapers or the Collector technology.

That collector weapon I'm firing at the end of the game says otherwise.

Blowing the statsion gets you zippo, zilch, zero, nada. Keeping gives you the chance of finding something useful. That means that something > nothing and something wins.

Exactly... the Thanix is reaper technology. I'm not saying we melt down people to make human-allied reapers... but havig the base to study reaper technology would teach us how to kill them.

As for Cerberus being more dangerous than Reapers... I dont buy it. TIM is ruthless, but he wouldnt start a interstellar war just to secure human dominance. That would just cost more human lives. Cerberus works through manipulation... not brute force. Just having the edge on other species would most likely be enough.

And if they cross the line? Hell... its one race against the galaxy. TIM would just have to take the example of the Krogan. You start enough trouble, the other races will ruin your entire species.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Those who destroy it are either cowards or let their emotions get the better of them.

Funny, one could say the same about the base keepers.

 Organic life won't get another chance to study Reaper tech, this is the only piece of tech that they were NOT meant to find (unlike the mass relays, citadel etc.)

I'm sure Harbringer considered the possibility of the Collectors base being discovered and them losing, we're talking about beings with infinite knowledge. 

A backup for the backup, by keeping the base they know what kind of technology you're going to depend on, theirs. You're just falling further into their net, but now with arrogance and hubris.

[jasonontko]

Internet Kraken wrote...

jasonontko wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

All arguments that support keeping the base are rendered pointless when you consider the possibility of indoctrination, and how big of a problem that would be. It just doesn't seem like it would be worth the risk.

Would you really rather wait until the reapers come to develope a counter measure to indoctriantion?  I say TIM is not stupid enough to get indoctrinated and will be smart enough to develope counter measures.  I sse this risk as an opportunity.

Wait, why would the Reapers develop a counter-measure to indoctrination?

Indoctrination has nothing to do with stupidity. Everyone can be a victim of it. Saren was smart. He tried to study indoctrination as well, and look at what happened to him. I can easily see the same thing happening to TIM. He has to much confidence. He claims Shepard is an idealist, yet he himself is being idealistic if he thinks he can manipulate and control Reaper technology.

TIM is smart enough not to put himself in postion to get indoctrinated, IE go to the base.  Saren was not aware of indoctrination unitl it was too late for him.  I am sure if in Specter school if there was a course of squid like ships indoctrnated people, he would have never set foot on Sovereign, he did not know.  He was ignorant not studpid.  TIM is not stupid or ignorant at this point.   

[Sidney]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

You can copy plenty of things and still not understand all of its effects or necessary why it works.

Who....cares? If it works, I don't care how it works. I know how to use my toaster, I don't care how it works but it still toasts bread.

If we can strip mine the base of useful technology and then send it to those fine factories in China where they copy everything that's still a win for the organic lifeforms.

Again, you can minimize the gain all you want but even if the gain is just a .000000000000000000001% better chance of taking down the Reapers that is .000000000000000000001% better than blowing it up.

[Forsakerr]

i too think that TIM would sacrifice millions of humans to make his own reaper(s) , when Shepard confronts him about using the tech he says that he s willing to do everything for humanity for the crisis and beyond it would be like giving thousands of nukes to a mad man so no i would not trust him with it, maybe he could make good use of it but the risk is too high



In my game the Geth are friendly to me since i rewrote the heretics, the Rachni wants revenge on the Reapers, maybe the Quarians would eventually join in the war and they have the biggest fleet in the galaxy ,also since Wrex leads the Krogans they could join too ,as other people said the Reapers tech could back fire in our faces so i also destroyed the base

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

it. TIM is ruthless, but he wouldnt start a interstellar war just to secure human dominance.

You're right he wouldn't, instead he'd just fill in the vacuum made by all of the alien races losing their forces.

Cerberus works through manipulation... not brute force. Just having the edge on other species would most likely be enough.

Are you trying to convince us or yourself?

And if they cross the line? Hell... its one race against the galaxy. TIM would just have to take the example of the Krogan. You start enough trouble, the other races will ruin your entire species.

So your answer is "If he does he'll just lose anyways! LOL"

[Jeremy Winston]

TIM most certainly would sacrifice humans so assure human supremacy. Look at all the 'experiments' he did in ME1?



Personally, I think there's enough misc. garbage floating around the collector's base to get tons of information. There are probably old ships from ancient, prior cycles. There's probably a wealth of information that can be pieced together.



I'm betting that TIM gets ahold of the dead husk of the human reaper in ME3 whether you destroyed the base or not.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Sidney wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

You can copy plenty of things and still not understand all of its effects or necessary why it works.

Who....cares? If it works, I don't care how it works. I know how to use my toaster, I don't care how it works but it still toasts bread.

Please avoid using strawmen arguments, if you don't understand my counterargument to yours just ask me to explain it.

[Undeath87]

The only problem I can see from keeping it is if we use too much of it. All you have to do is look at the Reaper IFF to see how dangerous raw Reaper tech can be.



But if it is kept to study, useful components being reverse engineered like the Thanix cannon, then it would be a boon without measure.



And I am sure someone as smart as TIM would realize this.

[Series5Ranger]

Ya and in Keeping the Collector base, You run the risk of becoming the Very thing you're trying to stop. How far is to far? I understand all the "Keeping the Base is the right thing to do" Arguments.

ARGUMENT 1: The Collector Base is proof that the Reapers exist.



At the very least, we needed to keep the Collector Base intact as

something tangible, to prove that the Reapers are real. Not enough of

Sovereign survived its destruction to prove the point, so I will lead

the Council on a guided tour of the Collector Base if that's what I

have to do to get them to wake up. If that motivates them, they're

free to join the fight (but for reasons stated below, they will not

lead).

-The Collector Base isn't needed. You have the proof you need when EDI Datamined the Collector Ship & Base during the game. You aren't keeping the Base for yourself, you're giving it to Cerberus, an organization known to be a borderline terrorist group. See If I was keeping the base for me, then maybe I would have considered keeping it, but I'm sure as hell not giving it to TIM.

ARGUMENT 2: What's good for Cerberus is good for the galaxy (at least for now).



One argument for destroying the Collector Base is that giving it

to Cerberus would make Cerberus more powerful. However, Cerberus is

the only organization willing to do anything about the Reapers. So how

is Cerberus becoming more powerful a bad thing? We're all staring down

the barrel of a gun -- if someone is willing to snatch that gun away,

you can't concern yourself with what he might do with it later. At

least you've bought yourself another breath.

See Above, yes Cerberus knows so much about the Reapers that's true, but Cerberus doesn't have enough Control over it's own organization to keep the Scientists from doing inhumane experiments on the Kids with Jack. The whole Scientific team sent to the derelict reaper got indoctrinated, not to mention the whole Cerberus side mission in ME1.

ARGUMENT 3: We've been using Reaper technology all along.



To those who say that the Reaper technology is too dangerous to

use, the Reapers built the Mass Relays, right? The Reapers built the

Citadel too. The only difference between that technology and the

Collector Base is that the Reapers WANTED us to have the Relays and the

Citadel. The Reapers did NOT want us to have that Collector Base. We

need to do the things that the sentient races did not do during the

previous 1,000 or so extinction cycles if we want to survive. Fire can

be dangerous, but it can also be useful. The same is true for any

tool. This is the first tool that the Reapers would prefer us not to

have.

-Sovereign himself said in ME 1 that by using their technology, organic species develop along lines predetermined, meaning that using or even developing "Anti-Reaper" tech using the collector base will keep you along said "Predetermined" path and that the Reapers will be familiar with whatever you will attempt to use against them.

ARGUMENT 4: No course of action is worse than inaction.



Now, here's the bad news for the non-human races.

This tool belongs to Cerberus. Tom Shepard gave the Citadel a chance

to lead, and they failed. There is no indication that they will ever

be convinced. Now it's Cerberus' chance, and we can't possibly do any

worse than the Citadel did. The Reapers are coming; we could only

match the Council's failure by also doing nothing.

"The Road to Hell is paved with Good intentions."



"The most important thing about power is knowing when not to use it"



"Evil only wins when good men do nothing"



Your giving Cerberus the potential ability to create a Reaper and you think this is a good idea? Yes you could maybe develop some Anti-Reaper Tech, If the Cerberus Scientists don't get indoctrinated, or taken over by Harbinger and finish what Harbinger was trying to do in the 1st place. You also have the possibility that Humanity will become the very thing that they will try to stop in ME 3. to quote the loading screen "Choices in ME2 could have dire consequences in ME 3" (my emphasis) This is one of them.

[Ghurshog]

In the end, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[Sidney]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...
Please avoid using strawmen arguments, if you don't understand my counterargument to yours just ask me to explain it.

Why is this always the lame reply of those with bad arguments or badly phrased arguments.

I understand your point, it is just wrong.

[ProdigalKnight]

Tell yourself what you might, but when The Illusive man and Cerberus betrays you and you see all the hard work you've done, UNDONE, you'll see why that place was meant to be destroyed.



"It may take being evil, to defeat evil."



Are you willing to be evil?

[Zomg_A_Chicken]

Ghurshog wrote...

In the end, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

We have a philisopher in the house

[Worbot]

I agree with everything the OP said.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Sidney wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...
Please avoid using strawmen arguments, if you don't understand my counterargument to yours just ask me to explain it.

Why is this always the lame reply of those with bad arguments or badly phrased arguments.

I understand your point, it is just wrong.

Then why didn't you make a proper response?

Argument 1: Cerebrus can't possibly fully understand this technology
Argument 2: They imitated this technology, I say they can.
Argument 3: You can imitate something but still not understand how it works or why it works that way.
Argument 4: So I use toasters and I don't know how they work.

You didn't continue to argue that Cerebrus can understand their technology, you just instead chose to attack another argument that I didn't make in order to make it easier for yourself. Thus a strawman, maybe people bring that up because you like to use logical fallacies?

[jasonontko]

Prodical95 wrote...

Tell yourself what you might, but when The Illusive man and Cerberus betrays you and you see all the hard work you've done, UNDONE, you'll see why that place was meant to be destroyed.

"It may take being evil, to defeat evil."

Are you willing to be evil?

Actually  yes.  If you cant do a little evil, you will never do alot of good.   Killing someone is evil, killing an evil person using a little evil does alot of good.

[Undeath87]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

it. TIM is ruthless, but he wouldnt start a interstellar war just to secure human dominance.

You're right he wouldn't, instead he'd just fill in the vacuum made by all of the alien races losing their forces.

Cerberus works through manipulation... not brute force. Just having the edge on other species would most likely be enough.

Are you trying to convince us or yourself?

And if they cross the line? Hell... its one race against the galaxy. TIM would just have to take the example of the Krogan. You start enough trouble, the other races will ruin your entire species.

So your answer is "If he does he'll just lose anyways! LOL"

1. Possible, but that would only be temporary... one race cannot rule an entire galaxy. Supremacy is one thing, but moving into dictatorship will just end with humanity being overthrown and cast down. Its a pattern that repeats itself through history...

2. I'm convinced. From what we have seen of Cerberus, they live in the shadows... never drawing attention to themselves. If they stepped out to declare themselves head of humanity... hell... the REST of humanity would be against them, along with the Council races.

3. Yes, he will. Its obvious. The Rachni invaded, were beaten to extinction. The Krogan invaded, then were beaten to near-extinction. Now the Reapers are invading... and we plan to eradicate them, yes? If TIM is too dense to see this pattern I will be immensely dissapointed in him. You CANNOT rule something so vast as a galaxy. You will have the combined force of billions and billions of enemies against you. It cannot be done. Hell, no one has even been able to conquer the entirety of Earth at one time in the history of man. What chance does Cerberus have against the galaxy?

[Series5Ranger]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Those who destroy it are either cowards or let their emotions get the better of them.

Funny, one could say the same about the base keepers.

 Organic life won't get another chance to study Reaper tech, this is the only piece of tech that they were NOT meant to find (unlike the mass relays, citadel etc.)

I'm sure Harbringer considered the possibility of the Collectors base being discovered and them losing, we're talking about beings with infinite knowledge. 

A backup for the backup, by keeping the base they know what kind of technology you're going to depend on, theirs. You're just falling further into their net, but now with arrogance and hubris.

Remember the Briefing for The Collectors in the beginning of the game, where it's stated that they trade their Technology for specific items / beings etc.