101 réponses à ce sujet

[Abirn]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

Cerebrus can't be trusted, simple as that.

You can only want to keep the base if you think Cerebrus can be trusted and/or want human racial superiority.

Survival from extinction is far more important than any political issue. 

[Jeremy Winston]

He's hoping to have a Reaper under his control.



Besides, people keep betting the farm on "TIM is too smart to ..."



The rest of us simply feel the opposite.



But, I'll say this... if this one decision leaves ME3 where saving/destroying puts the game in an unbeatable position, there's gonna be some incredible crowing going on.

[Internet Kraken]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Those who destroy it are either cowards or let their emotions get the better of them. Organic life won't get another chance to study Reaper tech, this is the only piece of tech that they were NOT meant to find (unlike the mass relays, citadel etc.) And thus I don't see how it would indocrinate since there in no danger of revolt there (the collecters are almost husks in that they don't have free will).

And we were supposed to go marching around inside a Reapers ancient corpse? That still led to indoctrination. I doubt the Reapers planned on that happening. What's to say that the Collector base isn't the same way? The Reapers might just design all of their tech to cause indoctrination to eliminate the chance that it could be used against them.

I think one the Reapers greatest weapons is over-confidence. They rely on organics being to confident in their own powers to realize the true dangers. They rely on organics not considering that the Citadel is a trap. They rely on organics using Reaper technology. They rely on organics subjecting themselves to indoctrination. Confidence has always led to the downfall of many people in Mass Effect. TIM does not look like he will be an exception from the rule.

So far he has only studied the methods of one reaper; Sovereign. He avoided the mistakes Saren made by exploiting his research. But Harbinger differs greatly from Sovereign. Two Reapers that appear to function very differently. He doesn't know Harbingers tricks. He is walking in the lair of the beast blindfolded. It is not going to turn out well.

Modifié par Internet Kraken, 10 février 2010 - 12:41 .

[Jeremy Winston]

Abirn wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

Cerebrus can't be trusted, simple as that.

You can only want to keep the base if you think Cerebrus can be trusted and/or want human racial superiority.

Survival from extinction is far more important than any political issue. 

Political?  Perhaps you mean moral/ethical.

And to the pure paragon view, that's not true at all.  Live free or die.  Never compromise.

[jasonontko]

Jeremy Winston wrote...

He's hoping to have a Reaper under his control.

Besides, people keep betting the farm on "TIM is too smart to ..."

The rest of us simply feel the opposite.

But, I'll say this... if this one decision leaves ME3 where saving/destroying puts the game in an unbeatable position, there's gonna be some incredible crowing going on.

Inteligence is a realtive thing.  Compared to the council, TIM is a freaking genius. 

[Abirn]

Jeremy Winston wrote...

Abirn wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

Cerebrus can't be trusted, simple as that.

You can only want to keep the base if you think Cerebrus can be trusted and/or want human racial superiority.

Survival from extinction is far more important than any political issue. 

Political?  Perhaps you mean moral/ethical.

And to the pure paragon view, that's not true at all.  Live free or die.  Never compromise.

But wouldn't the paragon view also claim that each sentient life has the right to fight for its own life?  By destroying the base you take away the opportunity for individuals across the galaxy to fight for survival.

[Sidney]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...
Then why didn't you make a proper response?

Argument 1: Cerebrus can't possibly fully understand this technology
Argument 2: They imitated this technology, I say they can.
Argument 3: You can imitate something but still not understand how it works or why it works that way.
Argument 4: So I use toasters and I don't know how they work.

You didn't continue to argue that Cerebrus can understand their technology, you just instead chose to attack another argument that I didn't make in order to make it easier for yourself. Thus a strawman, maybe people bring that up because you like to use logical fallacies?

I did, you aren't following the logic.

It does not matter if they can "understand" it. There's nothing to indicate they can't, that is just your assertion but I'll even grant your spurrious comment and counter that it does not matter if you understand it if you can use it. That is proven in game. That ability to use, if if not understand, gives you an edge that you woulnd't have if you blow the station.

[Jeremy Winston]

Don't try to twist paragon ideals. The paragon will not become that which he fights.

The assumption that the paragon player makes is that EDI has what data can be obtained. If they wanted to make it more murky, EDI would have said something like "I scanned it, but some systems were not accessible" or "I was only able to access 87.54% of the base systems."

Modifié par Jeremy Winston, 10 février 2010 - 12:47 .

[RequiemValorum]

Who is not to say that finding the collector base isn't part of the reapers plans? it may have happened before.



Buy sending the collectors to capture human colonies they were inviting an investigation. And there is a possibility that eventually someone would find their way successfully to the reaper base. There are hundreds of destroyed ships around the base that suggests that at least some made it through the omega relay without slamming into the black hole (the theorized reason for the IFF's existence).



Who's to say that the protheans didn't capture the base in their extinction cycle and thats how they ended up as the collectors? The tech they use looks neither prothean or Reaper so where'd it come from?

[Internet Kraken]

Sidney wrote...



It does not matter if they can "understand" it. There's nothing to indicate they can't, that is just your assertion but I'll even grant your spurrious comment and counter that it does not matter if you understand it if you can use it. That is proven in game. That ability to use, if if not understand, gives you an edge that you woulnd't have if you blow the station.

Except you're forgetting that Reaper technology has a tendency to blow up in the face of whoever is using it. This technology could easily be turned against you.

We used the Reaper IFF. We didn't understand it, but we used it anyways. And the crew was turned into goo because of it.

[jasonontko]

Jeremy Winston wrote...

Don't try to twist paragon ideals. The paragon will not become that which he fights.

The assumption that the paragon player makes is that EDI has what data can be obtained. If they wanted to make it more murky, EDI would have said something like "I scanned it, but some systems were not accessible" or "I was only able to access 87.54% of the base systems."

If I give you a scematic of a M-16, you would not know how it works.  Give you an M-16, you will understand how it works.  Give you both, you will have even a better understanding how it works.  You need more than a schematic to understand the base and the reapers.

[Series5Ranger]

Jeremy Winston wrote...

He's hoping to have a Reaper under his control.

Besides, people keep betting the farm on "TIM is too smart to ..."

The rest of us simply feel the opposite.

But, I'll say this... if this one decision leaves ME3 where saving/destroying puts the game in an unbeatable position, there's gonna be some incredible crowing going on.

I think you'll be able to achieve "Victory" over the Reapers either way, but be prepared to deal with the Aftermath....

[mcsupersport]

Undeath87 wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

it. TIM is ruthless, but he wouldnt start a interstellar war just to secure human dominance.

You're right he wouldn't, instead he'd just fill in the vacuum made by all of the alien races losing their forces.

Cerberus works through manipulation... not brute force. Just having the edge on other species would most likely be enough.

Are you trying to convince us or yourself?

And if they cross the line? Hell... its one race against the galaxy. TIM would just have to take the example of the Krogan. You start enough trouble, the other races will ruin your entire species.

So your answer is "If he does he'll just lose anyways! LOL"

1. Possible, but that would only be temporary... one race cannot rule an entire galaxy. Supremacy is one thing, but moving into dictatorship will just end with humanity being overthrown and cast down. Its a pattern that repeats itself through history...

2. I'm convinced. From what we have seen of Cerberus, they live in the shadows... never drawing attention to themselves. If they stepped out to declare themselves head of humanity... hell... the REST of humanity would be against them, along with the Council races.

3. Yes, he will. Its obvious. The Rachni invaded, were beaten to extinction. The Krogan invaded, then were beaten to near-extinction. Now the Reapers are invading... and we plan to eradicate them, yes? If TIM is too dense to see this pattern I will be immensely dissapointed in him. You CANNOT rule something so vast as a galaxy. You will have the combined force of billions and billions of enemies against you. It cannot be done. Hell, no one has even been able to conquer the entirety of Earth at one time in the history of man. What chance does Cerberus have against the galaxy?

1)  With Reaper tech, and a head start, he may actually be able to win.  This is a very distinct possibility, and add into the fact he may not save much of the other races from the Reapers, let them cull the other races and then defeat them.

2)  You assume with Reaper tech and indocternation, TIM would be able to defeat the Reapers but still be able to be taken down by other races or even humans.  If TIM is better than Reapers, and humans/all aliens are better than TIM, then all races and humans are better than Reapers and TIM and his base are not needed.

3)  Protheans ruled the entire Galaxy by all reports.  Reapers ruled and destroyed the entire Galaxy many times, and you are handing Reapers(their tech anyway) over to TIM. 



EDI should have been able to Datamine the base, and get most of the revelant technology from their computers.  This seems to be what is handed to Shepard at the end on the datapad.  The only real reason for the base survival is working technology of creating Reapers, and the Reaper embroyo corpse.  Neither of these two items should be considered safe for TIM, or even a good idea to keep in general.  Creating Reapers is NOT a good idea, and we saw what happens in a Dead Reaper already, when you try to study it.  

[RubiconI7]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

Cerebrus can't be trusted, simple as that.

You can only want to keep the base if you think Cerebrus can be trusted and/or want human racial superiority.

The argument is not if Cerberus can be trusted, it is if we can afford not to use Cerberus.

After so many overwhelming evidence of the Reapers' existence, still no one is willing to do anything. Cerberus is willing to do something to help. If they do abuse the Reaper tech AFTER the Reapers are repelled and destoyed....then we get a ME4....

[Sidney]

Internet Kraken wrote...

Except you're forgetting that Reaper technology has a tendency to blow up in the face of whoever is using it. This technology could easily be turned against you.

We used the Reaper IFF. We didn't understand it, but we used it anyways. And the crew was turned into goo because of it.

If that's true then the weapons and other tech edges you get from scanning dead Collectors shouldn't work - unless the Reapers are just playing a big rope-a-dope and letting you win this time, oh and the first time, so you'll be way overconfident in ME3.

[Eragondragonrider]

This is the second hardest decision in the game for me, let Cerberus reverse engineer the oldest and most advanced technology in the universe, or destroy it to kingdom com to never be used again. One the one hand I can side with advancing the human species and making use the dominated species, but I'm afraid the TIM will use it for his own gains more so then the human species. I also see destroying the thing because of what it represents and what it has done, the place symbolizes evil because of the Reapers. As human and savior of the galaxy this places should be used because it would defile the memories of the people that died, and if you save it might just turn the whole galaxy against humans. So to me it is the choice of the lesser of two evils. On the one hand you have saving the galaxy and riding it of the last collectors technology, but possible turning Cerberus against you for the 3rd game, and on the other hand we have Cerberus using it to give the galaxy a chance to survive the up coming reaper war, but at what cost.

[Jeremy Winston]

jasonontko wrote...

Jeremy Winston wrote...

Don't try to twist paragon ideals. The paragon will not become that which he fights.

The assumption that the paragon player makes is that EDI has what data can be obtained. If they wanted to make it more murky, EDI would have said something like "I scanned it, but some systems were not accessible" or "I was only able to access 87.54% of the base systems."

If I give you a scematic of a M-16, you would not know how it works.  Give you an M-16, you will understand how it works.  Give you both, you will have even a better understanding how it works.  You need more than a schematic to understand the base and the reapers.

See... now this is where we get really murky in how hard we can push the game universe.  And this is why we can never really answer this question.  Even when the official answer is out, we'll just argue that BioWare got it right or wrong.

The game can never fully explain enough of the universes workings for the player to make this sort of decision and be right based on information available.

When the game (and, yes, this is meta gaming) says that EDI has datamined the based, it's assumed the data is all understandable and can be used after some research.  Consider.. how in the world was she able to break into the Collector's ship, understand the testing they were doing on themselves and the humans, understand their data formats and results, and be able to work out what the collector systems had sequenced as their DNA?

It's not possible.  But it was.  So, if EDI could do that there, then handling the systems on the collector base shouldn't be any more of a problem.

[jasonontko]

RequiemValorum wrote...

Who is not to say that finding the collector base isn't part of the reapers plans? it may have happened before.

Buy sending the collectors to capture human colonies they were inviting an investigation. And there is a possibility that eventually someone would find their way successfully to the reaper base. There are hundreds of destroyed ships around the base that suggests that at least some made it through the omega relay without slamming into the black hole (the theorized reason for the IFF's existence).

Who's to say that the protheans didn't capture the base in their extinction cycle and thats how they ended up as the collectors? The tech they use looks neither prothean or Reaper so where'd it come from?

Who says protheans didnt capture base, Vigil  says.  Protheans were very surprised when CItdel gate opened and reapers came out. 

If they really wanted people to go there they could have made the gate passible by all.  But no, it was a reaper VIP room where they were building a reaper to replace sovereign. Destoying it meant going from the Citdal gate plan A to an unkown plan B.   

[Internet Kraken]

Sidney wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

Except you're forgetting that Reaper technology has a tendency to blow up in the face of whoever is using it. This technology could easily be turned against you.

We used the Reaper IFF. We didn't understand it, but we used it anyways. And the crew was turned into goo because of it.

If that's true then the weapons and other tech edges you get from scanning dead Collectors shouldn't work - unless the Reapers are just playing a big rope-a-dope and letting you win this time, oh and the first time, so you'll be way overconfident in ME3.

Yes, because a Collector particle beam is certainly on the same level as a Collector base.

I'm not saying we should throw away every piece of tech we get just because it came from the Reapers. But when we see something that could very easily be a trap, we shouldn't be taking any chances. The only reason any race is alive is becuase the Protheans messed with the Keepers, heavily reducing the danger of the Citadel. The Collector base is comparable to the Citadel in terms of Reaper tech. I'm sure Harbinger has some nasty surprised planned for anyone foolish enough to try and use it.

Modifié par Internet Kraken, 10 février 2010 - 01:02 .

[jasonontko]

Jeremy Winston wrote...

jasonontko wrote...

Jeremy Winston wrote...

Don't try to twist paragon ideals. The paragon will not become that which he fights.

The assumption that the paragon player makes is that EDI has what data can be obtained. If they wanted to make it more murky, EDI would have said something like "I scanned it, but some systems were not accessible" or "I was only able to access 87.54% of the base systems."

If I give you a scematic of a M-16, you would not know how it works.  Give you an M-16, you will understand how it works.  Give you both, you will have even a better understanding how it works.  You need more than a schematic to understand the base and the reapers.

See... now this is where we get really murky in how hard we can push the game universe.  And this is why we can never really answer this question.  Even when the official answer is out, we'll just argue that BioWare got it right or wrong.

The game can never fully explain enough of the universes workings for the player to make this sort of decision and be right based on information available.

When the game (and, yes, this is meta gaming) says that EDI has datamined the based, it's assumed the data is all understandable and can be used after some research.  Consider.. how in the world was she able to break into the Collector's ship, understand the testing they were doing on themselves and the humans, understand their data formats and results, and be able to work out what the collector systems had sequenced as their DNA?

It's not possible.  But it was.  So, if EDI could do that there, then handling the systems on the collector base shouldn't be any more of a problem.

 I agree with you I am pushing the limits of the game universe, but its fun to argue anway.

[jasonontko]

Jeremy Winston wrote...

jasonontko wrote...

Jeremy Winston wrote...

Don't try to twist paragon ideals. The paragon will not become that which he fights.

The assumption that the paragon player makes is that EDI has what data can be obtained. If they wanted to make it more murky, EDI would have said something like "I scanned it, but some systems were not accessible" or "I was only able to access 87.54% of the base systems."

If I give you a scematic of a M-16, you would not know how it works.  Give you an M-16, you will understand how it works.  Give you both, you will have even a better understanding how it works.  You need more than a schematic to understand the base and the reapers.

See... now this is where we get really murky in how hard we can push the game universe.  And this is why we can never really answer this question.  Even when the official answer is out, we'll just argue that BioWare got it right or wrong.

The game can never fully explain enough of the universes workings for the player to make this sort of decision and be right based on information available.

When the game (and, yes, this is meta gaming) says that EDI has datamined the based, it's assumed the data is all understandable and can be used after some research.  Consider.. how in the world was she able to break into the Collector's ship, understand the testing they were doing on themselves and the humans, understand their data formats and results, and be able to work out what the collector systems had sequenced as their DNA?

It's not possible.  But it was.  So, if EDI could do that there, then handling the systems on the collector base shouldn't be any more of a problem.

 I agree with you I am pushing the limits of the game universe, but its fun to argue anway.

[Abirn]

They even said the base had no security systems because they probably didn't expect anybody to find it.

[Internet Kraken]

Abirn wrote...

They even said the base had no security systems because they probably didn't expect anybody to find it.

Then what was the purpose of all of those drones flying outside the base? And just becuase the Reapers didn't plan on you finding something does not mean it is safe. The Reaper did not plan on us finding one of their corpses trapped inside a brown dwarf, and look at how "safe" that turned out to be.

[SuperZombieChow]

Excellent arguments for keeping the base, and that's likely going to be the less popular option, so it makes the thread even more interesting.



In the end, I chose to destroy the base. Why? Because Cerberus never manages to show that it can control reaper tech. They lose a full team of researchers to the derelict reaper, your entire crew to installing the reaper IFF... If TIM had managed to prove to me once in the game that he can harness Reaper tech (Note: Not the stuff the Reapers WANT us to use) without it blowing up in his (my) face then I might have left the base intact.



Still, sad to hear that the crew gets upset with you. Loyal crewmembers should agree with your choice, regardless of which one you make, and disloyal squadmates should disagree with you. Making them get angry at you feels like the game is punishing you for making the "wrong" choice.

[jasonontko]

SuperZombieChow wrote...

Excellent arguments for keeping the base, and that's likely going to be the less popular option, so it makes the thread even more interesting.

In the end, I chose to destroy the base. Why? Because Cerberus never manages to show that it can control reaper tech. They lose a full team of researchers to the derelict reaper, your entire crew to installing the reaper IFF... If TIM had managed to prove to me once in the game that he can harness Reaper tech (Note: Not the stuff the Reapers WANT us to use) without it blowing up in his (my) face then I might have left the base intact.

Still, sad to hear that the crew gets upset with you. Loyal crewmembers should agree with your choice, regardless of which one you make, and disloyal squadmates should disagree with you. Making them get angry at you feels like the game is punishing you for making the "wrong" choice.

I agree with you Cerberus record is seems poor.  TIM may have sent his team knowing it would get indocttinated, to study it.  Also they were indoctrinated very quickly which TIM may not have anticipated and now will be aware of in the futrue.  If I could have asked any question to TIm while making the decesion it would be why his team failed on the Derlict Reaper, but that was not an option.