101 réponses à ce sujet

[Jeremy Winston]

It shouldn't have been based on loyalty, but on their own personalities. Zaeed should have been happy to keep the base. Grunt possibly would as well.



Jack, Tali, Jacob and Garrus would be against it. Miranda could go either way depending on her personal development.



Mordin would be mixed. Thane, I think would be against it, as it wouldn't fit into his philosophy. Samara would be against it, while I think Morinth would be for saving it.

[nelander30]

There is no right or wrong decision, bioware made the context such that the decision depends not in logical argument but one that it depends on your paragon/renegade point of view.

From a paragon point of view, it really is an easy decision, the ends dont justify the means, so giving the base to Cerberus ,so they can do whaterver it takes, to garantee human supremance is not really an option.

As Jeremy Winston, pointed out, In the paragon hero's mind, there is no question he can stop the reapers without the base, Shepard tell this to TIM, he says he will find a way to stop the reapers without sacrifcing its soul.

From a renegade point of view it is also an easy decision, ends justify the means, and pragmatism is the rule. If you have a weapon  you use it, if you have advanced tech you use it. if a million people need to die for billions to live, it is an easy call. also in ME universe, renegade also means human centered view. So if all the other races have to take one for humanity well thats even better.

Now for circular nitpicking: about the reapers not planning on you taking the base. Well as people have already said, they didnt plan on you using a 30 million year old reaper carcass, and they still managed to kill all the science team and almost got the normandy in the process. I think they can do better with the base.

[nelander30]

Jeremy Winston wrote...


Mordin would be mixed. Thane, I think would be against it, as it wouldn't fit into his philosophy. Samara would be against it, while I think Morinth would be for saving it.

I disagree, after the experience with the krogans, Mordin position should be similar to =Legion; ie using tech from more advanced races always end badly.

[Jeremy Winston]

On a completely side topic... I'm a little concerned in that one of the quoted somethings by one of BioWare's people (is that vague enough for you), Casey something... seemed to directly link Paragon/Renegade to Good/Evil. I very much did not like reading that.

[Jeremy Winston]

nelander30 wrote...

Jeremy Winston wrote...


Mordin would be mixed. Thane, I think would be against it, as it wouldn't fit into his philosophy. Samara would be against it, while I think Morinth would be for saving it.

I disagree, after the experience with the krogans, Mordin position should be similar to =Legion; ie using tech from more advanced races always end badly.

I picked mixed because he's kinda renegade.. he believes the end justifies the means.  And, while he's apparently in conflict about it, I'm not positive he's changed his views.

[jasonontko]

nelander30 wrote...

There is no right or wrong decision, bioware made the context such that the decision depends not in logical argument but one that it depends on your paragon/renegade point of view.

From a paragon point of view, it really is an easy decision, the ends dont justify the means, so giving the base to Cerberus ,so they can do whaterver it takes, to garantee human supremance is not really an option.

As Jeremy Winston, pointed out, In the paragon hero's mind, there is no question he can stop the reapers without the base, Shepard tell this to TIM, he says he will find a way to stop the reapers without sacrifcing its soul.

From a renegade point of view it is also an easy decision, ends justify the means, and pragmatism is the rule. If you have a weapon  you use it, if you have advanced tech you use it. if a million people need to die for billions to live, it is an easy call. also in ME universe, renegade also means human centered view. So if all the other races have to take one for humanity well thats even better.

Now for circular nitpicking: about the reapers not planning on you taking the base. Well as people have already said, they didnt plan on you using a 30 million year old reaper carcass, and they still managed to kill all the science team and almost got the normandy in the process. I think they can do better with the base.

If you cant learn to manage a dead reaper then you cant learn to beat thousands of live reapers and we might as well open the Citdel gate and get this over with.   I think you can mangae a dead reaper and the base but there will be alot of trail and error.  But better to sacrfice now where the risks are small then wait for a reaper fleet to arrive and then jump out our ass to find a solution when we could have studing a solution all this time. 

[Asheer_Khan]

Let me use a comparision to Star wars Universe where many once powerfull Jedi turned to Dark Side (Exar Kun, Ulic Quel Droma or Revan) because they tought that they were strong in off to counter Dark Side influence but in the end they all fail deep in darkness.



Now you come here and say "Hey let's keep that base in order to save galaxy"...

There is more as sure that even collector ships and bases HAVE INDOCTRINATION protocols in order to keep "redesigned" Proteans loyal to Reapers... and you want to keep that "thing" intact?



If 38 million year old dead Reaper still have active indoctrination protocols then imagine how strong this could be on fully functional base so it wont take long before any team working inside that base will be indoctrinated.

Furthermore if even such powerfull Asari as Benezia fail a prey of indoctrination then imagine how quick weak in compare to Asari human mind could be indoctrinated.



And one more thing, remember Tali's loyalty mission and what killed her father.

Quarians created Geth so they should have absolute knowledge how to avoid any danger from thier side and still whole ship crew got wiped out by thier own creation.

It's true that you can copy reapers technology BUT there is a catch which made this whole situation more dangerous as smoking cigaret near gas pipeline.



What i mean there is NO guarantee that reapers did not left some sort of "Kinder Surprise" "eggs" hidden in schematics which can turn deadly for anybody who will attempt to recreate any reaper based technology, and they are old in off to take under consideration that fact.



And to conclude.



For any Mengsk followers i have suggestion... you want Human Empire?

Simply get rid of the Council in ME 1 but i seriously doubt that lonely humanity will survived longer as Protean did having against thier "empire" not only Reapers and Collectors but rest of the furious at humanity Galaxy as well.

Heck base ME 2 gameplay (without ME 1 imports) show pretty good what will happened if Council will be killed in ME 1 and Udina become new Council Chariman... and this was not pretty nice picture.

[nelander30]

Jeremy Winston wrote...

I picked mixed because he's kinda renegade.. he believes the end justifies the means.  And, while he's apparently in conflict about it, I'm not positive he's changed his views.

It might vary depending on personal development, but on my paragon run, in one of the talks he makes it clear that he blames the salarian uplifting of the krogan as the root cause of the krogan rebellions. If the krograns would have developed at their own speed, by the time they were capable to explore/colonize other planets, their culture would have evolved to the point that it would not have made war inevitable

[Missouri Tigers]

Here was my thought process at the end of the game my first time through:

Wait, the Illusive Man just led me in this war as a genius.  He played a mind game and now we've come out on top.  He's right, we are going to need everything we can get in order to defeat the Reapers and he knows that the Reapers wouldn't help humanity by working with them, they would just turn us into things like the Collectors.  He wants what is best for humanity and what is best for humanity is defeating the Reapers.  I was a Paragon character, but I saved the base for tIM and then was nice to him in the final confrontation.

[Jeremy Winston]

jasonontko wrote...
If you cant learn to manage a dead reaper then you cant learn to beat thousands of live reapers and we might as well open the Citdel gate and get this over with.   I think you can mangae a dead reaper and the base but there will be alot of trail and error.  But better to sacrfice now where the risks are small then wait for a reaper fleet to arrive and then jump out our ass to find a solution when we could have studing a solution all this time. 

And this bothers me quite a bit.  Why the hell wasn't there something keeping track of all that?  If it had been me, I would have had the place loaded up with sensors to pick up any attempts at indoctrination so if it did happen, I'd know damn well how it worked.

But no.  Even after indoctrination was known factor, the survey team never flinched that the head of the team was 'listening' to certain elements.

Trial and error is one thing.  Stupidity, though?

[adam_grif]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Let me use a comparision to Star wars Universe where many once powerfull Jedi turned to Dark Side (Exar Kun, Ulic Quel Droma or Revan) because they tought that they were strong in off to counter Dark Side influence but in the end they all fail deep in darkness.

Now you come here and say "Hey let's keep that base in order to save galaxy"...
There is more as sure that even collector ships and bases HAVE INDOCTRINATION protocols in order to keep "redesigned" Proteans loyal to Reapers... and you want to keep that "thing" intact?

If 38 million year old dead Reaper still have active indoctrination protocols then imagine how strong this could be on fully functional base so it wont take long before any team working inside that base will be indoctrinated.
Furthermore if even such powerfull Asari as Benezia fail a prey of indoctrination then imagine how quick weak in compare to Asari human mind could be indoctrinated.

1. You have no idea whether or not the collector ship has indoctrination tech or not. The collecters were originally indoctrinated, but are now just another slave species of the Reapers. Remember, the keepers are also in the same boat, but the Citadel doesn't have indoctrination gear on it either.

2. Cerberus had no idea the reaper would still indoctrinate, so they presumably didn't take measures to prevent it. Now they can. They can use telepresense to collect tech and study it remotely with no chance of getting indoctrinated. Either that or they can wear sealed hardsuits that prevent the infrasound + subliminals from reaching them, and study the tech from inside these sealed suits.

[Jeremy Winston]

nelander30 wrote...

Jeremy Winston wrote...

I picked mixed because he's kinda renegade.. he believes the end justifies the means.  And, while he's apparently in conflict about it, I'm not positive he's changed his views.

It might vary depending on personal development, but on my paragon run, in one of the talks he makes it clear that he blames the salarian uplifting of the krogan as the root cause of the krogan rebellions. If the krograns would have developed at their own speed, by the time they were capable to explore/colonize other planets, their culture would have evolved to the point that it would not have made war inevitable

Yes.  I saw that too.  And he said he would not have made that decision.  However, once it was done, he had no problem releasing the genophage.  This act is protrayed as renegade by the game.  A paragon Shepard is apauled by it.  (And I, a very paragon type player, disagreed.  I was very mixed on it.)

So, having free tech available against the reapers might have appealed to him.  Or he might think it's too dangerous.  I just can't tell.

[jasonontko]

Jeremy Winston wrote...

jasonontko wrote...
If you cant learn to manage a dead reaper then you cant learn to beat thousands of live reapers and we might as well open the Citdel gate and get this over with.   I think you can mangae a dead reaper and the base but there will be alot of trail and error.  But better to sacrfice now where the risks are small then wait for a reaper fleet to arrive and then jump out our ass to find a solution when we could have studing a solution all this time. 

And this bothers me quite a bit.  Why the hell wasn't there something keeping track of all that?  If it had been me, I would have had the place loaded up with sensors to pick up any attempts at indoctrination so if it did happen, I'd know damn well how it worked.

But no.  Even after indoctrination was known factor, the survey team never flinched that the head of the team was 'listening' to certain elements.

Trial and error is one thing.  Stupidity, though?

ME1 indoctrination is subtle and take a long time.  In ME2 we learn in the codex that indoctrination can occur at varing speeds not just varying strengh.  The faster the indoctrination, the faster the mental degredation.  This is not known until ME2 and we are in a rush to get the IFF and Reaper is supposly dead  and hell maybe TIM used it as an experiment like how he did not tell us about the collector ship.  However, yea I would have wanted to ask TIM about this to get an answer.

[Internet Kraken]

adam_grif wrote...



1. You have no idea whether or not the collector ship has indoctrination tech or not. The collecters were originally indoctrinated, but are now just another slave species of the Reapers. Remember, the keepers are also in the same boat, but the Citadel doesn't have indoctrination gear on it either.

Or so we are told. Some people have suggested that the Citadel may have incredibly subtle indoctrination that has caused the Council to turn a blind eye to the Reaper threat. This would explain their blatant stupidity in the second game.

adam_grif wrote...
2. Cerberus had no idea the reaper would still indoctrinate, so they presumably didn't take measures to prevent it. Now they can. They can use telepresense to collect tech and study it remotely with no chance of getting indoctrinated. Either that or they can wear sealed hardsuits that prevent the infrasound + subliminals from reaching them, and study the tech from inside these sealed suits.

You're assuming that Cerberus knows exactly how indoctrinaton works. We don't. Harbingers indoctrination may be completley different from Soveriegn's. And what's to say the base doesn't have other traps? What's to stop Harbinger from "assuming direct control" again?

[nelander30]

Missouri Tigers wrote...

Wait, the Illusive Man just led me in this war as a genius.

To me the extent of the illusive man genius was: lets send Shepard

jasonontko wrote...
If you cant learn to manage a dead reaper then you cant learn to beat
thousands of live reapers and we might as well open the Citdel gate and
get this over with.

I disagree, been able to manage a reaper and being able to kill it, are two diffirent things, after all we managed to kill the base, Sovereign and the dead reaper, but when organics try to study reapers, it seem to always end up with husks.

In anycase I dont think the resolution of the conflict in ME3 will be anything other than a deus ex machina that somehow either kill all reaper (except one shown after the trailers, just in case it sells enough they want a fourth game, no matter what original plans were) or somehow prevents them to come to citadel space.

[Jeremy Winston]

I don't buy that. Getting the IFF was too important to 'experiment.' ME1 was full of side quests that involved people self-indoctrinating because they found/discovered something. OK.. maybe not full, but there were certainly one or two.

Thus, the issue was known.

Besides, the reaper is obviously keeping itself in orbit. Mass fields are operational. I take sensors. Lots of them. SOP.

Modifié par Jeremy Winston, 10 février 2010 - 01:53 .

[jasonontko]

nelander30 wrote...

Missouri Tigers wrote...

Wait, the Illusive Man just led me in this war as a genius.

To me the extent of the illusive man genius was: lets send Shepard

jasonontko wrote...
If you cant learn to manage a dead reaper then you cant learn to beat
thousands of live reapers and we might as well open the Citdel gate and
get this over with.

I disagree, been able to manage a reaper and being able to kill it, are two diffirent things, after all we managed to kill the base, Sovereign and the dead reaper, but when organics try to study reapers, it seem to always end up with husks.

In anycase I dont think the resolution of the conflict in ME3 will be anything other than a deus ex machina that somehow either kill all reaper (except one shown after the trailers, just in case it sells enough they want a fourth game, no matter what original plans were) or somehow prevents them to come to citadel space.

Killing Sovereign was was all luck, if it did not transfer itself to Saren it would still be there blowing **** up. 

And yes the writers can pull something out of their ass, but that defeats the purpose of decesion making in Mass Effects and would cheapen the game. 

[SuperZombieChow]

adam_grif wrote...

2. Cerberus had no idea the reaper would still indoctrinate, so they presumably didn't take measures to prevent it. Now they can. They can use telepresense to collect tech and study it remotely with no chance of getting indoctrinated. Either that or they can wear sealed hardsuits that prevent the infrasound + subliminals from reaching them, and study the tech from inside these sealed suits.

But that's exactly the problem isn't it? TIM sent a survey team into the derilict reaper not knowing what surprises it had in store. Imagine (or in TIM's case, fail to imagine) how much worse the hidden safeguards of the collector base could be. They knew you had the IFF and they knew you were coming through Omega 4. Were I, a puny human without millions of years of knowledge and experience, in the same position as Harbringer I would have filled that base to the brim with really ugly traps non-collectors could set off, all of which would hurt the inevitable war effort against the reapers. Smart viruses that upload to cerberus, disseminate through the extranet and start disseminating false information to turn the Citadel Species against each other. Those collector swarms hiding on any ships that leave the station and replicating to become a galaxy spanning plague. Stuff like that. TIM has a terrible track record with Reaper tech from my point of view, no way he can handle that base.

EDIT:

It shouldn't have been based on loyalty, but on their own
personalities. Zaeed should have been happy to keep the base. Grunt
possibly would as well.



Jack, Tali, Jacob and Garrus would be against it. Miranda could go either way depending on her personal development.



Mordin
would be mixed. Thane, I think would be against it, as it wouldn't fit
into his philosophy. Samara would be against it, while I think Morinth
would be for saving it.

To an extent, but I think loyalty should play a part. Miranda might think it's a good idea to keep it... unless she is loyal and learns to trust Shepard's judgement. Similarly Tali might hate giving it to Cerberus, but she can see the merits of the decision if she is absolutely loyal to Shepard. Disloyal squadmates may similarly point out what was lost by your decision, regardless of whether they agree or not. Loyalists give you a half full perspective, disloyalists give you a half empty one.

Modifié par SuperZombieChow, 10 février 2010 - 02:02 .

[nelander30]

jasonontko wrote...

Killing Sovereign was was all luck, if it did not transfer itself to Saren it would still be there blowing **** up. 

And yes the writers can pull something out of their ass, but that defeats the purpose of decesion making in Mass Effects and would cheapen the game. 

If he had not transfered then Shepard would have taken his hand cannon, one thermal clip and killed Sovereign himself.

I think the decisions might affect the context of the victory over the reapers. But it will have to be a deux ex machina that kills the reapers, after all, you will somehow defeat the fleet in a mission on foot.

[BattleVisor]

EDI datamined the base pretty hard, Im pretty sure all useful info was taken. What physical use did it have, except for creating a human reaper out of millions of humans,This is evident, when Shepard was given datapad of the reaper.



And dont forget that human reaper could be lurking somewhere and indoctrinate the Cerberus scientist teams



Also TIM is a douchebag, if he got hold of the collector'sd base

[Jeremy Winston]

nelander30 wrote...

jasonontko wrote...

Killing Sovereign was was all luck, if it did not transfer itself to Saren it would still be there blowing **** up. 

And yes the writers can pull something out of their ass, but that defeats the purpose of decesion making in Mass Effects and would cheapen the game. 

If he had not transfered then Shepard would have taken his hand cannon, one thermal clip and killed Sovereign himself.

I think the decisions might affect the context of the victory over the reapers. But it will have to be a deux ex machina that kills the reapers, after all, you will somehow defeat the fleet in a mission on foot.

Hell... HALF a thermal clip!  He's mine!  I own him!

To be honest.. I never really bought this "Sovereign invested all of himself into Saren."  I mean... really.  Operating the cybernetics to make Saren move, attack, fight, etc?  Sovereign could have tacked that onto his self-diagnostic routines and probably never even noticed the processor drain.

[nelander30]

Jeremy Winston wrote...

To be honest.. I never really bought this "Sovereign invested all of himself into Saren."  I mean... really.  Operating the cybernetics to make Saren move, attack, fight, etc?  Sovereign could have tacked that onto his self-diagnostic routines and probably never even noticed the processor drain.

Ah the assumptions of an organic mind, as legion mentioned Sovereign was not one entity but thousands of programs, it was not transfering that killed him but the power of narratium, in this case how do we kill a ship with a mission on foot.

[Jeremy Winston]

Oh.. sure. I invoked the almight narrator? Ok. I can accept that. What do I do to do it again? YXX(L^)BB? Or some other key combination?

[nelander30]

up up down down left right left right a b select start

[Ferocious7]

It was tempting.. but what about that Reaper vessel that drives the crew insane? The collector's base had some other info, but I'm sure plenty of it was hacked by Legion (or Tali, depending who you sent through).... we already figured out what they tubes and humans were for..... there was nothing good that could come out of "keeping" it.



It could easily get overrun by the collector's again or somehow activate something, thus indoctrinating the workers. Not to mention, I don't trust Cerberus. They have a common goal with my Shepard, and that's the only reason I worked with them (not that you have other options in the game, but still it was able to be justified)...



I believe it was a tough decision, but after destroying it and speaking with each and every teammate... especially the extremely intelligent and wise teammates (Legion, Samara, Mordin, etc..) I definitely did the right thing. I may make a back up of a save right before making that decision... just to see how it pans out in ME3, but overall I feel it was for the best. The Illusive Man doesn't realize how blinded he is by his own greed and curiosity... he looks out for the benefit of "mankind" yet Shepard looks out not only for the benefit of humans... but for the benefit of all life. Well a Paragon Shepard does..... and imo that's the type of person this story needs leading the fight against the Reapers. The reapers are in fear, and there's more to The Illusive Man than we know. Only time will reveal what. He seems to know too much even for someone in his position. And while his intentions sound genuine, he reminds me of Al Pacino in the movie "Devil's Advocate"... very smooth talker, intelligent, but something isn't right.



Martin Sheen did an EXCELLENT job with his character and hopefully he stays on board for ME3.... of course so did Seth Green, I like how there was a lot more of his character Joker involved.... always funny to talk to in between missions and watch as his relationship progresses with EDI. haha