428 réponses à ce sujet

[Capt. Klef]

They are some kind of sneaky...witch thief!!!!

[Eurypterid]

Abriel, you're really spinning this in the worst possible light you can. I'm not sure why you're choosing to do so though. Did they decide to work on the fix for the XBOX before the PS3? Yes, and it's explained why in the dev posts I linked. Does that mean they're treating PS3 owners as second class citizens or that PS3 owners are getting the shaft? I hardly think so.



But the reason it's taking so long for the PS3 version to come out isn't entirely BioWare's fault. In fact, if they shoulder any blame at all for that, it's minimal. The game has been sent to Sony for certification at least 11 days ago now. Could BioWare have decided to work on the PS3 version first, then send it for certification, then work on the other versions? Possibly, although from the way it was explained, that wouldn't have been the optimal way to go about it. Would that have meant they were treating XBOX and PC owners as second class citizens? Again, hardly. In any business there are decisions to make. Just because the particular decision might be more advantageous for one group over another doesn't mean the latter are being slighted.

[Realmzmaster]

First of all BioWare is a part of EA. Therefore the principals of BioWare get their marching orders from the higher ups in EA. Suppose BioWare wanted to please the PS3 owners first and get RTO out for them. If the executives of EA say no do the XBox and PC users first. Guess what gets done first. No it does not absolve BioWare.

No matter what you do someone is going to be miffed. If they put out RTO for the PS3 first, the PC and Xbox owners will not be happy. If they delay the release again so they can release it at the same time on all platforms everyone will be pissed.

Yes PS3 owners have a right to be pissed. Bioware/EA made a business decision.

[Abriael_CG]

Eurypterid wrote...
But the reason it's taking so long for the PS3 version to come out isn't entirely BioWare's fault.

Nor it's entirely Sony's fault. Thus voiding the point behind the OP that it's "you shouldn't be miffed at bioware! It's all sony's fault!"

It's been sent to sony for certification 11 days ago. The Xbox version has obviously been sent for certification earlier than that. They decided to work on the xbox version first. Whatever the reasons, that decision has been taken by Bioware/EA. It's unreasonable to think that PS3 owners shouldn't feel neglected after the developer took a decision that disadvantages them.
On top of the fact that it's not the first time, European PS3 users got the game itself later than everyone else, so yes, I would say they have plenty reasons to feel treated as lower class customers.
Many other developers manage to release content and games at the same time on all platforms. That, by itself, should tell that Sony's certification isn't as draconic as some would like to paint them.

It's not entirely Bioware's fault, but they're not blameless.

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 10 février 2010 - 10:09 .

[zy1054]

I think people wouldn't be so negative if it was just one thing but
The game came out for PS3 after PC and XBox so we got the game last
We get RtO last
When i scroll down and look at the forms i see a PC tech forum and an XBox one but no PS3 one.
There was a thread created for the XBox release and the PC release of RtO but not the PS3 one so we had to read though the xbox or pc ones to find out anything about the PS3 release, always seemed to be more information about the Xbox Pc release than ps3 (not saying there was but this was my preception)
Where i am at least Awakening will be download only
So while there may be good reasons for this it still dosen't help the feeling that perhaps the PS3 users are less cared for.

Modifié par zy1054, 10 février 2010 - 10:15 .

[Eurypterid]

Abriael_CG wrote...

Eurypterid wrote...
But the reason it's taking so long for the PS3 version to come out isn't entirely BioWare's fault.

Nor it's entirely Sony's fault. Thus voiding the point behind the OP that it's "you shouldn't be miffed at bioware! It's all sony's fault!"

It's been sent to sony for certification 11 days ago. The Xbox version has obviously been sent for certification earlier than that. They decided to work on the xbox version first. Whatever the reasons, that decision has been taken by Bioware/EA. It's unreasonable to think that PS3 owners shouldn't feel neglected after the developer took a decision that disadvantages them.
On top of the fact that it's not the first time, European PS3 users got the game itself later than everyone else, so yes, I would say they have plenty reasons to feel treated as lower class customers.
Many other developers manage to release content and games at the same time on all platforms. That, by itself, should tell that Sony's certification isn't as draconic as some would like to paint them.

It's not entirely Bioware's fault, but they're not blameless.

Actually, re-reading victor's post of 11 days ago, he specifically states the PS3 version was sent to Sony for certifcation at the same time as the XBOX version. So, how is it BioWare's fault?

[Abriael_CG]

Eurypterid wrote...
Actually, re-reading victor's post of 11 days ago, he specifically states the PS3 version was sent to Sony for certifcation at the same time as the XBOX version. So, how is it BioWare's fault?

Then I guess he'd have to decide which version is the right one since he earlier clearly stated that the xbox version was fixed before the PS3 version.

But again, if Sony's certification is so terrible, why most developers out there manage to do their releases on all platforms at the same time? There must be something amiss somewhere.

[Eurypterid]

I take his posts to indicate that work was started on the XBOX version first, yes, but that they were both sent to certification at the same time.

[ninemil]

Eurypterid wrote...

Actually, re-reading victor's post of 11 days ago, he specifically states the PS3 version was sent to Sony for certifcation at the same time as the XBOX version. So, how is it BioWare's fault?

Given how many bugs and exploits were present in each build of the 360 and PC releases, which weren't present in the corresponding ps3 build, (xp exploits, favour exploits, gold exploits etc etc) then I'm more than happy to see Sony take a little longer with their confirmation process if it means we get a patched up build and our trophy selection actually retain their worth. The amount of people that maxed Dragon Age's achievements on 360 the same week it came out by cheating their way through made me sick.

So really, perhaps it's nothing to do with Sony - perhaps the delay is just a symptom of sodding coding?

(For the record, we have both the red ring device and multiple ps3's in this house, along with copies of Dragon Age on both formats)

[Fexelea]

This could all have been cleared up if we had not gotten contradictory information. The quality and quantity of the information for ps3 users has not been akin to that the 360 or pc users got.

There was an official thread about the delay and release for xbox.

There was an official thread for the PC.

PS3 gets a grand total of 2 posts "lost" inside those threads, and the information is contradictory! If nothing else, the fact that ps3 users feel uncared for IS Bio's fault. They have total control over that aspect.

I am sure there are plenty of reasons why decisions were taken, it doesn't change the results: one platform is receiving content way after all the others with less information and support. Turning around to blame Sony for the fans feeling casted out is ilogical.

Modifié par Fexelea, 10 février 2010 - 11:58 .

[Fexelea]

ninemil wrote...

(For the record, we have both the red ring device and multiple ps3's in this house, along with copies of Dragon Age on both formats)

I lol'd

[Eurypterid]

No one's blaming the fans for feeling that way (I don't think), due to the reasons you've listed. Hell, I agree with your points about that as well as what zy1054 posted. But the issue in this thread is the delay, which IS Sony's 'fault' because the game is in certification, and has been since the XBOX version was sent to certification (according to Victor).

[Fexelea]

@Eurypterid

I have asked Victor to clarify this statement more than 5 times now. To be honest, since the information he gave directly contradicted Fernando Melo's post, I find it hard to believe it. Either Fernando lied, or Victor misunderstood.

Victor Wachter wrote...



It was developed concurrently, and was submitted for testing at the same time as Xbox 360.

What I mean is: If we take that the first part of that sentence is likely completely off (as it contradicts what the developer explained), then the second part cannot be trusted either, as it could be another missinterpretation in Victor's part.



I would want a clear cut answer before I make an assessment as to whether Sony is to "blame" for the delay.

[Eurypterid]

I see what you're saying, but I understood Fernando's post to say they needed to start working on the XBOX version first to figure out what was going on. Once they got a handle on things, they started working on the PS3 version. That work would go faster since they knew what to look for. I just took it to mean that the PS3 version was started after the XBOX, but not necessarily once the XBOX was completely finished. So yes, they were developed concurrently, just not started at the same time. The two versions were then submitted to their respective certification processes when they were both finished.



That's what I took from it, anyway.

[Fexelea]

I did not understand that from Ferhnando's post, because of this:

Once we were able to resolve the issue for 360 and delivered the second title update to MS for final certification then work began in earnest on the short hop to moving this across to PS3 and directing the test focus there

To me, that clearly says that they resolved the issue on the 360, delivered to MS, and then started with PS3. The title update and DLC were released simultaneously on the 360, which would be indicative of receiving both at the same time.

[Eurypterid]

Aye, a fair point there, although doesn't the 'second title update' refer to the patch? Could mean the XBOX version of RtO still hadn't been sent to MS.



But I hesitate to jump to the conclusion that the devs are 'lying'. (What reason would they have to lie?) I think there's definitely a mix-up in communication somewhere. And yes, it would be good to get clarification.

[Victor Wachter]

You know, we can talk about blame, priorities and timelines all we want. But I also want you to understand our intentions. If we set priorities, particularly about developing a bug fix for one console before another, it's not because we have any favor toward one or the other. As it has been explained to me, it made sense within the project to resolve the issue that delayed RtO's final release on the Xbox first, so we would have some experience to refer back to when fixing it for the PS3. It's not bias, it'st just the way our development process worked best for this case.



Even if you do want to look at it from a corporate point of view, the PS3 delay for RtO also delays revenue to our company. And nobody likes that, right? We do want this out as soon as it can be, but we have to wait until we receive certification.

[Fexelea]

I do not believe that Fernando lied. I believe Victor misinterpreted and misrepresented, and since he has not replied to the (really 5!) posts where I have asked for clarification, I am left to think what I can interpret only.

I agree that from that sentence it *could* be that RTO had not been sent out. However, taking this into account:

The issue we saw on 360, which was introduced with the title update, also exists on the PS3 patch that was planned to go out with the Return to Ostagar DLC for PS3

It would seem that the problem was the patch and not RTO itself. So if they fix the patch they fix the issue. So if the patch is fixed and sent for testing that must include RTO. A patch cannot be tested by itself when if it affected content that was not yet delivered.

[awsome_robot]

First Victor said: "Once we were able to resolve the issue for 360 and delivered the second title update to MS for final certification then work began in earnest on the short hop to moving this across to PS3 and directing the test focus there. The nature of the issue was such that it required the same programmers and made more sense for that particular ‘nut’ to be cracked on the 360 first to really understand how to fix it once and for all, so this was not something we could do in parallel for both platforms."

lets put emphasis on the very first sentence, the content was worked on the ps3 ONLY AFTER it was delivered to MS for final cert. also that it COULD NOT be worked on at the same time as the 360. Again, it was worked on the ps3 ONLY AFTER it was worked on the 360.


Then he said: "Actually, to clarify, the PS3 version is in certification with Sony right now. It was developed concurrently, and was submitted for testing at the same time as Xbox 360. However, Sony has a different process than Microsoft, and so their process takes longer. This is not to point a finger and blame someone else, but to make you aware of the fact that we do consider the PS3 right along with other platforms. But that part of the release process is something that we don't have control over."

in other words, he just gave us a contradiction. that it was supposedly "worked" on an submitted to both companies AT THE SAME TIME.

So Eurypteri, you'll have to excuse us if we are less than pleased with bioware. Also, it doesn't hurt to call to check up on their product.

[Fexelea]

Victor Wachter wrote...

You know, we can talk about blame, priorities and timelines all we want. But I also want you to understand our intentions. If we set priorities, particularly about developing a bug fix for one console before another, it's not because we have any favor toward one or the other. As it has been explained to me, it made sense within the project to resolve the issue that delayed RtO's final release on the Xbox first, so we would have some experience to refer back to when fixing it for the PS3. It's not bias, it'st just the way our development process worked best for this case.

Even if you do want to look at it from a corporate point of view, the PS3 delay for RtO also delays revenue to our company. And nobody likes that, right? We do want this out as soon as it can be, but we have to wait until we receive certification.

I understand this and, as I wrote in other posts, I do not think there is malicious intent. I have not challenged anyone's integrity, all I have said is that the OP blaming Sony is not entirely true: if the bug was fixed and sent to 360 first, then Bioware has a share on the "blame" for the delay.

As Abriael stated earlier, business decisions are trade-offs. In this case, the ps3 users got a delay because of a business decision made by Bioware. In order to prevent the users from misinterpreting this as favoritism, communication would be key. Has there been such communication? No.

Please don't take it array.

Modifié par Fexelea, 11 février 2010 - 01:00 .

[zy1054]

i think it goes back to what Fexelea and i were saying about it almost being more than just the delay to RtO but a combination of things that leave PS3 users feeling like the support over all has not been the same for the PS3. At end of the day RtO is only an hour worth of content (i for one barely have time to play at the moment anyway as training for a half marathon) but clearly there is a feeling that there has been less commuication towards PS3 users and release dates for PS3 than for other platforms

[awsome_robot]

Victor Wachter wrote...

You know, we can talk about blame, priorities and timelines all we want. But I also want you to understand our intentions. If we set priorities, particularly about developing a bug fix for one console before another, it's not because we have any favor toward one or the other. As it has been explained to me, it made sense within the project to resolve the issue that delayed RtO's final release on the Xbox first, so we would have some experience to refer back to when fixing it for the PS3. It's not bias, it'st just the way our development process worked best for this case.



Even if you do want to look at it from a corporate point of view, the PS3 delay for RtO also delays revenue to our company. And nobody likes that, right? We do want this out as soon as it can be, but we have to wait until we receive certification.

i want to believe you but even before RtO was delayed countless of times, it was clear, that even before the bugs were found, that the ps3 version of RtO was catalogued as available "later on ps3" and it was NOT going to see the light of day with the pc/360. Blaming it on sony cert, yet at launch, there was day one dlc on all platforms.

Another EA game (Rock Band) gets the same new dlc the same week for both the 360 and ps3 (ps3 gets it 2 dayslater because of sony's thursdays new releases), so IF submitted "properly" there shouldn't a 2 week delay for RtO and that is assuming it releases this week, if what you said is true and indeed it was submitted for cert at the same time.

[rogue1983]

Eurypterid wrote...

Abriael_CG wrote...

Eurypterid wrote...
But the reason it's taking so long for the PS3 version to come out isn't entirely BioWare's fault.

Nor it's entirely Sony's fault. Thus voiding the point behind the OP that it's "you shouldn't be miffed at bioware! It's all sony's fault!"

It's been sent to sony for certification 11 days ago. The Xbox version has obviously been sent for certification earlier than that. They decided to work on the xbox version first. Whatever the reasons, that decision has been taken by Bioware/EA. It's unreasonable to think that PS3 owners shouldn't feel neglected after the developer took a decision that disadvantages them.
On top of the fact that it's not the first time, European PS3 users got the game itself later than everyone else, so yes, I would say they have plenty reasons to feel treated as lower class customers.
Many other developers manage to release content and games at the same time on all platforms. That, by itself, should tell that Sony's certification isn't as draconic as some would like to paint them.

It's not entirely Bioware's fault, but they're not blameless.

Actually, re-reading victor's post of 11 days ago, he specifically states the PS3 version was sent to Sony for certifcation at the same time as the XBOX version. So, how is it BioWare's fault?

then it would be out already fernando or victor has stated ps3 takes two weeks cert. so unless they pulled it and re-cert. them releasing it the same time as the xbox is false.

[Eurypterid]

awsome_robot wrote...

First Victor said: "Once we were able to resolve the issue for 360 and delivered the second title update to MS for final certification then work began in earnest on the short hop to moving this across to PS3 and directing the test focus there. The nature of the issue was such that it required the same programmers and made more sense for that particular ‘nut’ to be cracked on the 360 first to really understand how to fix it once and for all, so this was not something we could do in parallel for both platforms."

lets put emphasis on the very first sentence, the content was worked on the ps3 ONLY AFTER it was delivered to MS for final cert. also that it COULD NOT be worked on at the same time as the 360. Again, it was worked on the ps3 ONLY AFTER it was worked on the 360.


Then he said: "Actually, to clarify, the PS3 version is in certification with Sony right now. It was developed concurrently, and was submitted for testing at the same time as Xbox 360. However, Sony has a different process than Microsoft, and so their process takes longer. This is not to point a finger and blame someone else, but to make you aware of the fact that we do consider the PS3 right along with other platforms. But that part of the release process is something that we don't have control over."

in other words, he just gave us a contradiction. that it was supposedly "worked" on an submitted to both companies AT THE SAME TIME.

So Eurypteri, you'll have to excuse us if we are less than pleased with bioware. Also, it doesn't hurt to call to check up on their product.

You'll note in the second quote he said "To clarify", which generally means there was something awry about the earlier statement, which he was attempting to correct.

Anyway, Victor has posted here, so I'm out.

[awsome_robot]

zy1054 wrote...

i think it goes back to what Fexelea and i were saying about it almost being more than just the delay to RtO but a combination of things that leave PS3 users feeling like the support over all has not been the same for the PS3. At end of the day RtO is only an hour worth of content (i for one barely have time to play at the moment anyway as training for a half marathon) but clearly there is a feeling that there has been less commuication towards PS3 users and release dates for PS3 than for other platforms

not to mention that there hasn't been a RtO for ps3 thread, leaving us ps3 owners to check on the 360 and pc forums on the announcement threads. also to access the ps3 technical support page is only accessible if you're signed it to the site. nothing major, but small issues adding up on the list.