46 réponses à ce sujet

[Sabresandiego]

Dont get me wrong, I think this is a great game. The only problem is that gameplay is very poor. The game is mainly just an interactive movie that you watch. The graphics, storytelling, artwork, sound, voices, are phenomenol. Unfortunately the gameplay is poor. There is very little skill involved in this game, and combat is mundane. Sustained abilities are especially stupid and take away even more of the little interactivity there is with combat in this game.

Combat is also not fluid, and there are alot of bugs and quirks that can be annoying. Combat decisions at the highest level simply amount to positioning and minor spell and ability choices. Although I am no longer a fan of WOW due to it being a teenager cartoon fantasy world, alot can be learned from the gameplay elements of Blizzard games. Look how WOW plays, how skills work, and how the game is balanced. It is leaps and bounds above what this game offers in gameplay. This is a great game, but gameplay needs alot of work.

[Jarrydian]

So not only are you comparing this game to an mmorpg, but you also state how you think the combat mechanics (which are already more involving thanks to spell combinations and party grouping tactics) should try to mimic a game that is vastly overrated as it is? And also how you believe said mmorpg is "balanced"?

Enjoy the game for what it is. Yes, there is some issues with difficulty if you play long enough or if you indulge in overpowered group setups, but honestly every game out there has some issues...I just believe DA:O has less than most.

[Sabresandiego]

Jarrydian, I am saying that gameplay sucks in this game. There isnt much skill in this game. Skill in games usually comes from things such as reaction speed, aim, tactical decisions, game knowledge, etc... The only aspect of this game that has any skill is game knowledge and tactical decisions and it is very minor at that. You can completely automate your party with the tactics settings and do 90% as well as you would controlling your party. The main different is that you can position your characters properly whereas the AI cannot position your characters.



Sustained abilities are such a bad gameplay mechanic. You can be running a bunch of sustains and you are basically just an autoattack bot. I might as well watch popcorn pop because thats all you are doing while watching your character autoattack.



This game has little interactivity even if youre not using sustainds. What difference does it make if I use flurry, riposte, or cripple with my dual wield warrior? Not a huge difference which skill I use, it doesnt effect the game enough to be noticeable.



Basically, the game is not very interactive, overly automated, with low skill requirements. Its basically just an interactive movie. This makes it appealing to people without a lot of game savy because its easy to play.

[Realmzmaster]

@Sabresandiego,

Have you completed a playthrough? If not where are you in the game? I find the game play to very engaging. What comparisons are you using? Are you comparing it to other CRPGs or WOW?

You say that you can completely automate your party with the tactics setting and do 90% as well as you would controlling the party and that is a bad thing in what way? It simply means that I have thought thru how I want my companions to react without having to micromanage everything. If you think the sustainables such as dirty figting, cripple or riposte have no effect take your warrior and try to take on a mage without using any of those tactics.

DA:O is a real time CRPG with a pause feature. Try playing the game without using hold or pause. Unless of course you are looking for a turn based game where you can give commands to each character based on initiative

If you are compaing it to WOW, if I am not wrong each character in a party in WOW is controlled by a separate individual. You do not control the entire party.

Skill comes from reaction speed, so you are saying it should be a click fest like action-crpgs? So you are saying you do not have to think about what you are doing in DA:O?

You do not have to think about about how to build your party? I am sure just autoattacking the high dragon, Flemeth or the Ogre in the tower will work just fine

I am missing where the gameplay sucks? I have been playing CRPGs since Ultima 1. I guess your definition of gameplay differs greatly from mine.

[DAO Lemon]

Lots of Good points there, But comparing to MMORPG's like WOW/Runescape is different as they are constantly receiving updates, Game Changes Etc, as this game is receiving DLC, Updates I Believe once or twice a month at max.

[dkjestrup]

The Gameplay in this game isn't that bad, for what it tries to do.



What we need is a) all the bugs fixed the combat to be balanced (Shapeshifting etc) and c) More tactical, difficult encounters. A Solo run should require intense strategies that take ages, and should barely be possible.

[Jarrydian]

What it basically comes down to if you compare this game to an mmorpg is a lack of pvp. As odd as that sounds, it's true. Games such as DA:O and other rpgs usually are never too difficult to master because it lacks competitive player vs. player combat. PvP in mmorpgs forces a game to focus on player skill above all else, which also inevitably carries over into it's PvE aspect of the game. I'm all for more involving gameplay that determines tactical skill in RPGs. I'm just saying that I've yet to see this happen, so I enjoy this game for what it is: The best RPG I've played to date.

[sly like Coyote]

The real problem is the incredible lack of any real involvement on the part of the player in planning or controlling anything other than mages. I agree that the combat and skill systems are thin and incredibly poorly realized, and it's the main reason that as I'm now finishing the game I'd be selling it off instead of planning up another character.

[Monica21]

I'm confused. This is an RPG and not an FPS, right? So why does player skill matter?

[Darkkyn46]

What Sabresandiego is trying to say is that this game is beneath his superior level of skill and caters to the unwashed masses instead (the rest of us). Thank you Sabre, I hope that trip down off the mountain top wasn't too taxing.



To be honest, there isn't any skill involved in WoW either. There is no more skill involved in playing any video game than there is being a fast and accurate typist. It's really just a fun diversion, so try to get over yourself.



In my opinion the game wasn't designed so much for "skill" as it was for storyline. The storyline is magnificent, and the ability to change it each play through depending on your interactions keeps it fresh and fun to play. Perhaps you're just looking for the wrong thing in the wrong place.

[Britanus]

This is like comparing Dragon Age to a game like Oblivion. It just isn't right and shouldn't be done.



They are two separate entities, both of which play differently, both successful in what they attempted to do. Dragon Age isn't meant to be played as a first person game, because it wouldn't fit the group-style play of the game.

[Realmzmaster]

dkjestrup wrote...

The Gameplay in this game isn't that bad, for what it tries to do.

What we need is a) all the bugs fixed the combat to be balanced (Shapeshifting etc) and c) More tactical, difficult encounters. A Solo run should require intense strategies that take ages, and should barely be possible.

Solo runs do require intense strategies and most people do not attempt them. A few of the people on this forum are the exception not the rule. Many gamers on the forum already complain that even on easy parts of the game are too difficult. BioWare even issued a patch to make easy easier.
The problem is that once you learn the mechanics of the game and have played through it more than once the battles become easier because you know what to expect and what works. A balance has to be maintain between making the game to difficult for noobs (thereby killing any future audience)  and not difficult enough for more seasoned gamers (losing your established base).
Too many tough tactical battles and frustration will start to set in. The next thing you know is that the gamer is telling his friends the game is a waste of time because it is too difficult and impossible to win. I have not seen any real imbalance in the game and I have used Morrigan's shapeshifting ability along with my Ranger PC's pet. But, YMMV.

[Realmzmaster]

sly like Coyote wrote...

The real problem is the incredible lack of any real involvement on the part of the player in planning or controlling anything other than mages. I agree that the combat and skill systems are thin and incredibly poorly realized, and it's the main reason that as I'm now finishing the game I'd be selling it off instead of planning up another character.

Really? Play the game without mages and come tell me that. Is the skill system system like the overblown one in D & D or WOW? No. Is it simple enough for anyone to grasp and works within the storyline? Yes.
But different strokes for different folks

[Sabresandiego]

@realmzmaster

Yes I have completed the game. I enjoyed the game tremendously, it is one of the best single player rpg I have ever played. Probably the best. The things that made it great were everything but the gameplay. It was basically an interactive movie that lasted almost 100 hours. The gameplay is weak and doesn't take much skill once you figure it out. There is little to no game balance, and the AI is poor. Combat is full of bugs also. RPG's with good gameplay use multiple reactive abilities, timing based abilities, critical decisions which must be made quickly, tactical choices, etc. Very few "skill" elements are in this game.



@Darkkyn46

Thanks for agreeing with me in a humorous way. But the truth is, a game like WOW does have skill magnitude far greater than typing. The skill is based on making difficult decisions in a very short timeframe, using reaction based abilities, skill use choice, positioning choice, etc. WOW does not require aiming, which is one factor which makes FPS games very skill based, but its PVP elements have morphed it into a game where there is definitely a skill factor and the game is played competetively for a reason. The gameplay for WOW is very deep and well thought out although the cartoon childish world doesnt appeal to me. The gameplay for DA:origins is extremely shallow, and has little to no skill component. The rest of the game is fantastic however.

[dkjestrup]

Realmzmaster.



There's nothing wrong with the difficulty of easy. Just because I want the game harder on Nightmare, doesn't mean I want the other difficulties harder too.



And Easy mode wouldn't need changing. For example, the battle against the Shrieks on the bridge in Bownammar. Really really really really really easy battle. It's a great moment, and would be great tactically, but they just aren't strong enough, or in enough numbers. There's like what, 5-6 from each end? That's fine on easy, but on Nightmare, perhaps continuous waves of 10-15 per end would be better. I solo'ed one end with my mage. Paralysis Explosion + Cone of cold + Virulent Walking Bomb + Stonefist. Done.



It shouldn't be so easy.

[Monica21]

Sabresandiego wrote...
Thanks for agreeing with me in a humorous way. But the truth is, a game like WOW does have skill magnitude far greater than typing. The skill is based on making difficult decisions in a very short timeframe, using reaction based abilities, skill use choice, positioning choice, etc. WOW does not require aiming, which is one factor which makes FPS games very skill based, but its PVP elements have morphed it into a game where there is definitely a skill factor and the game is played competetively for a reason. The gameplay for WOW is very deep and well thought out although the cartoon childish world doesnt appeal to me. The gameplay for DA:origins is extremely shallow, and has little to no skill component. The rest of the game is fantastic however.

I know this was directed at someone else, but I still have to comment because I just shake my head when I read stuff like this. Dragon Age is not "reaction based" because the data you have is what your character knows, not what you, the player knows. This isn't Duck Hunt. The only player skill components should be what choices you make on level up and how you set your tactics options. The rest is up to the character, and the dialogue choices for how the player chooses to develop the character.

If you want a game based on player skill, then this isn't for you. Clearly.

[Sabresandiego]

Monica, you are essentially agreeing with my assessment of the gameplay, but instead of saying it sucks you are saying it is "working as intended". I guess thats fine if you like playing interactive movies. Perhaps thats what the developers intended with this game. Blizzard has a motto with their games which I really like "Easy to play, difficult to master". Thats how I like my games to be. Easy for someone to jump in, but a large skill gap differentiating players. This game has no skill gap. I can give a bufoon my character and his equipment, spend 2 minutes showing him how to play, and give him a strategy for a boss fight and he will do just as well as me. You cannot give someone a character in WOW or in a first person shooter and have them jump in and do as well as you in those games.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 10 février 2010 - 06:20 .

[Realmzmaster]

@Sabresandiego,



What you are describing is not a single player CRPG, but a clickfest. Mutilple reactive and timing based abilities are great in a MMORPG or FPS. But serve very little purpose in a single player CRPG. I have little interest in how fast I can click the mouse or hit the keyboard. I plan out my tactics for each companion on the tactics screen and adjust accordingly. But to each their reach. I am on my fourth playthrough and having fun. YMMV.

[Sabresandiego]

Perhaps you are correct in stating that the game is simply designed for a different audience than what I am. I prefer games which require timing, speed, coordination, critical decisions, a little keyboard and mouse dexterity, tactics, and more. I love using reactionary abilities like interrupts, stuns, charges, overpowers, in addition to overall battlefield tactics.

I do not like things being automated for me. The less automation there is in a game, the more interactive it is for me. And interactivity is the basis of skill. Perhaps the game is working as intended and is just not my cup of tea in terms of gameplay. Its still a great game however.

I guess if building up an arcane warrior, loading up a bunch of sustains, and then just right clicking every few seconds while watching your character autoattack is your definition of fun, then the game is working perfectly. Me personally, I prefer to be making multiple combat decisions every second I am in battle.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 10 février 2010 - 06:35 .

[Monica21]

Sabresandiego wrote...

Perhaps you are correct in stating that the game is simply designed for a different audience than what I am.

Oh, he is. And this is game is not primarily about combat, which is what you seem to want.

[MOTpoetryION]

i love your hair monica it looks very nice : )

[GeorgeZip]

How much +stamina gear does your AW have? Buy the executioners helm from that assasin vendor and use Eamon's shield or Fade Wall and use Wade's heavy armor. You can run 3-4 sustained abilities depending on the fight and have plenty of mana for spells around level 18.

[Lambert_Feyzel]

Very interesting thread

DAO is based above all on a deep and wonderful story, with memorable characters.. plus a good battle system, with tons of skills, abilities, weapons and specializations.
But still, In my opinion there are some problems about fighting who should be rebalanced or fixed, and they are:

1) Enemies' AI, quite lacking in several situations. Let's say it straight: your opponents are dull.
For example: most of the times, when in dungeons, you can cast some AoE spell like Firestorm, and watch your opponents in the nearby room being toasted without moving out from flames.
Same vs Ser Cauthrien, in the fight after rescuing the queen at Arle Howe's: if you are fast enough, you can aggro her alone, while her soldiers will stay in the hall, bored and waiting for you to kill their commander and be toasted like in the previous example.


2) Some spells are overpowered: Fireball is tremendously powerful (knockdown + high damage), so it should have more cast time, and longer cooldown.. be happy your enemies don't overuse it, because Morrigan in my playthroughs does.
Also, you could just cast Force Field on your tank after he has aggroed enough opponents: they'll continue to attack him while he's totally invulnerable, while you happily slay them one by one.

Modifié par Lambert_Feyzel, 10 février 2010 - 11:17 .

[Meneldhil]

Monica21 wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

Perhaps you are correct in stating that the game is simply designed for a different audience than what I am.

Oh, he is. And this is game is not primarily about combat, which is what you seem to want.

What is it about then? Every time someone bring up the points on which DA:O fails badly, someone else answers 'but this is not what the game is about!!'.

- 'Several incoherences in the plot? It is not what the game is about!'
- 'Blank gameplay? It is not what the game is about!'
- 'Blank character developement? It is not what the game is about!'

Honestly, DA:O failed in these three aspects. The game is good, but it could have been vastly better. As it is now, it is effective in delivering a good experience, but I'd hardly rate it as the 'best RPG ever!!1!1!11!'. It's so good only because they're nothing else.

[melkathi]

Meneldhil wrote...

What is it about then? Every time someone bring up the points on which DA:O fails badly, someone else answers 'but this is not what the game is about!!'.

- 'Several incoherences in the plot? It is not what the game is about!'
- 'Blank gameplay? It is not what the game is about!'
- 'Blank character developement? It is not what the game is about!'

Honestly, DA:O failed in these three aspects. The game is good, but it could have been vastly better. As it is now, it is effective in delivering a good experience, but I'd hardly rate it as the 'best RPG ever!!1!1!11!'. It's so good only because they're nothing else.

Though you do have to admit that one wonders why people bother comming to a forum of a rpg game when they find the game lacking in plot, gameplay and character development. Seems some people torture themselves by playing something they don't like.
Pesonally, when I don't like a game, I simply don't play it and do something else. And if there is no game to interest me at all, I find something to do that has nothing to do with gaming (started Krav Maga last week for instance, it's fun).

Though maybe I should be over in the ME forum complaining about the game not being a FPS. I would have loved ME if it didn't have all that stupid character advancement. If I am targeting manually, I want my targeting to affect my aim, not some arbitrary stat.

I have my gripes with Dragon Age. Balancing, certain parts of the story and a fear that the story will take a turn to the worse quality wise... but then again I see doom™ around the corner whenever I hear that a story will be continued.