270 réponses à ce sujet

[hexaligned]

Rabble Rabble Rabble

[Onyx Jaguar]

distinguetraces wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...
So this thread continues regardless of consensus.

Hell, I'm not reading through ten pages. What was the consensus?

That there would be no consensus!

And a couple of us managed to argue with each other even though we agreed with each other.  Good times.

[Maria Caliban]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

So this thread continues regardless of consensus.

Ryan vs Lamb: Reality

Ryan: White is not black, Doctor Lamb. Down is not up. And straw is not gold. Look around you: Rapture is no miracle; it is a product of reason. Impossible unless 1 and 1 are 2, and A equates to A.

Lamb: And yet, alone, each man is a prisoner to bias. Dreams or delutions or the pain of a phantom limb, to one man they are as real as rain. Reality is consensus and the people are losing faith. Take a walk, Andrew. It is raining in Rapture and you have simply chosen not to notice.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 13 février 2010 - 09:56 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Edit*

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 13 février 2010 - 09:58 .

[grregg]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Wow that has got to be the lamest reasoning behind wanting something ever. Old people look the same as young people! Really? Thats the best you can come up with?
So we can have in your example 120 armors, or the 1 and a half (the half being a pallet swap) we have in ME2 in the name of uniqueness!

Heh... I see my explanation did not work. No worries, I'll explain again.

The "old people looking like young people" example was not given as a reason why I want something. It was intended as an illustration of side-effects of customizability. I am sure that BioWare did not set out to make old NPCs look young, they were forced into it by... wait for it... limited resources.

And that's what this discussion is really all about. You (and Abriael_CG if I understand correctly) are essentially saying "BioWare! Give me more! I don't care if you have to create 500 armor models, I want more!"

Which is a fine sentiment to be sure, but an unfortunate fact of life is that BioWare will eventually run out of "more". At which point they are forced to make trade-offs.

Now the question obviously is which trade-off do you (or I) prefer. From your posts I understand that you'd prefer companions to be able to wear all available armors. The price of that is that they end up looking rather like everyone else. Same body build, same body language, same height, same armors.

I am not knocking BioWare here, they did an awesome job making companions unique in DA:O despite the limitations mentioned above. But certain things are just very expensive to do in DA:O and that price means that you are unlikely to have a hunchbacked, very tall elf an a companion.

And since you tend to fixate on my examples, no, I do not necessarily want a hunchbacked elf in my party. That was an example meant to illustrate limitations imposed by allowing customizability. Please try to abstract from there. Can you do it for me?

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

grregg wrote...

Heh... I see my explanation did not work. No worries, I'll explain again.

The "old people looking like young people" example was not given as a reason why I want something. It was intended as an illustration of side-effects of customizability. I am sure that BioWare did not set out to make old NPCs look young, they were forced into it by... wait for it... limited resources.

And that's what this discussion is really all about. You (and Abriael_CG if I understand correctly) are essentially saying "BioWare! Give me more! I don't care if you have to create 500 armor models, I want more!"

Which is a fine sentiment to be sure, but an unfortunate fact of life is that BioWare will eventually run out of "more". At which point they are forced to make trade-offs.

Now the question obviously is which trade-off do you (or I) prefer. From your posts I understand that you'd prefer companions to be able to wear all available armors. The price of that is that they end up looking rather like everyone else. Same body build, same body language, same height, same armors.

I am not knocking BioWare here, they did an awesome job making companions unique in DA:O despite the limitations mentioned above. But certain things are just very expensive to do in DA:O and that price means that you are unlikely to have a hunchbacked, very tall elf an a companion.

And since you tend to fixate on my examples, no, I do not necessarily want a hunchbacked elf in my party. That was an example meant to illustrate limitations imposed by allowing customizability. Please try to abstract from there. Can you do it for me?

Er niether one of us asked for more, just that we enjoy customization and would perfer it didn't go the way side just to make a couple people with insane requests of removing features one is sort of used to being present in a Bioware game happy. Again even with ME2's very limited customization, aside from having alien races in the game (aliens being something DA doesn't have obviously) there's very little difference between any of the human models in the game aside from obviously having their own unique from start to finish same armor/outfit. How anyone would flaunt that like its a good thing is beyond me.

What you're somewhat saying here is because theres not some hunchbacked old person in DA:O, its all due to the customization options present in the game in regards to armor. Which again is somewhat of a stretch. I'm quite sure if Bioware wanted to put a hunch backed NPC in, they'd be able to do it.

[tigrina]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Er niether one of us asked for more, just that we enjoy customization and would perfer it didn't go the way side just to make a couple people with insane requests of removing features one is sort of used to being present in a Bioware game happy. Again even with ME2's very limited customization, aside from having alien races in the game (aliens being something DA doesn't have obviously) there's very little difference between any of the human models in the game aside from obviously having their own unique from start to finish same armor/outfit. How anyone would flaunt that like its a good thing is beyond me.

What you're somewhat saying here is because theres not some hunchbacked old person in DA:O, its all due to the customization options present in the game in regards to armor. Which again is somewhat of a stretch. I'm quite sure if Bioware wanted to put a hunch backed NPC in, they'd be able to do it.

I totally don't get that you insist on calling someone else's preferences 'insane requests' just because you don't like it yourself.

Personally I could totally see how BW could decide on having an unique portrayal of their NPC companions if they so wished, and I would totally enjoy it too. A style to complement their personality. Dog and Shale had their 'limited' looks, and I quite enjoyed that. And I would never want to wear Morrigans outfit myself, but I did let her walk in it the whole game because it just felt fitting. It would give the designers the chance to make an NPC really unique in looks and behaviour (motions, bodytype, etc), because they don't have to adjust for all possibilities a player would have gearing them with different armors. Which in my book adds to their personality and memorability.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

tigrina wrote...

I totally don't get that you insist on calling someone else's preferences 'insane requests' just because you don't like it yourself.

Personally I could totally see how BW could decide on having an unique portrayal of their NPC companions if they so wished, and I would totally enjoy it too. A style to complement their personality. Dog and Shale had their 'limited' looks, and I quite enjoyed that. And I would never want to wear Morrigans outfit myself, but I did let her walk in it the whole game because it just felt fitting. It would give the designers the chance to make an NPC really unique in looks and behaviour (motions, bodytype, etc), because they don't have to adjust for all possibilities a player would have gearing them with different armors. Which in my book adds to their personality and memorability.

At the cost of stripping out a major component one expects in this type of fantasy RPG. Considering it really didn't make ME2 all that much better, and to be honest I felt the absolute gutting of most of the RPG elements of the first game, was actually quite detremental, I'd really hate to see a staple feature of a BG type of game go away just so people can relate to an NPC's personality through clothing of all things.

There's far better ways to do it without that kind of sacrifice imo.

[Hel]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

At the cost of stripping out a major component one expects in this type of fantasy RPG.

I don't get what's such a major component of this type of fantasy RPG about being able to dress up a companion in a different set of gear. It adds absolutely nothing to the roleplaying experience or the replayability of the game. Even more so, specializing e.g. Morrigan as an Arcane Warrior and suiting her up in a heavy armour diminishes her character!

I'd really hate to see a staple feature of a BG type of game go away just so people can relate to an NPC's personality through clothing of all things.

Just because these possibilities existed in Baldur's Gate doesn't mean they should carry over to another party-based RPG. I'd much rather see the companions have a personal tastes about what they do and don't wear. Offer them a magical ring as a gift and see if they want to wear it, if they don't then it's their loss.

I'm not big on the puppeteering aspect of the game, aside from the tactical options that make up for the AI's general lack of coherence in battles, but I wouldn't want to rob others of it either. I just think that it would be nice if the companions each had a set of unique clothing to help define their characters.

Duncan wouldn't be Duncan without his choice of hairstyle and his armour, and Morrigan wouldn't be Morrigan if she was stuck wearing one of those dull Circle of Magi robes.

But that's just my opinion, of course.

Modifié par Helekanalaith, 16 février 2010 - 11:22 .

[Sabriana]

I might have read that wrong, but are you saying that basically we shouldn't be able to choose specializations for the NPC companions either? I mean, an AW is geared toward either being a tank/mage, or a mage/fighter-thing-a-like.

I want to be able to give my comp. NPCs the armor/robe that compliments and aids their development that I chose and implemented during the game. I know who they are, and I know their personalities. A piece of clothing does not change their character, or their disposition, or anything but the outer layer. The visual thing. Not the game-play, not the character, just a visual, outer layer.

[Hel]

No, that's not what I was saying.

Dressing up and specializing companions to your heart's desires is a nice feature, but from a roleplaying perspective it makes little sense if you ask me. Turning Morrigan into an Arcane Warrior or Alistair into a Reaver simply doesn't fit their characters. She is defined as a proficient magic user and he's the embodiment of innocence -- specializing her as a martial combatant while he becomes a soul-feasting terror is the exact opposite of what they represent.

Now if someone can justify those changes in their character to me from a roleplaying perspective I might reconsider my opinion, but until then I'll see it as nothing more than playing some Sims variant in a different theme.

Also, this was completely off-topic, we're discussing the appearances here. <_<

[Loerwyn]

ME2's companions look different to everyone else.

DA:O's companions either look the same as the NPCs or look different. Alistair looks a lot like a few of the male human NPCs (The templar at Lake Calenhad for example) and Leliana looks a lot (to me) like a standard female human NPC. Oghren would probably fit in with other Dwarves quite well and not stand out too much, and Wynne would probably do the same with other female humans.



If you put Miranda in a crowd of humans in ME2, she would likely stand out. If you put Leliana or Alistair in a crowd of humans in DA:O, they would not stand out.

[Xandurpein]

I think a lot of it comes down to what your definition of an RPG is. For some people the whole idea of an RPG is to be able to fiddle with stats and equipment, to build your character in stats and to some extent also in appearance. I can respect that view, but don't share it.

I've played almost every set of PnP rules there is, as well as various free form rules, and for me an RPG is a RPG because I play a role. I act out a charcters adventure. It's the storydriven adventure and conversations that make DA a wonderful RPG, not the equipment or the levelling. To me Mass Effect 2 would be a great RPG even if they removed the whole levelling altogether.

I agree that it's totally out of character to make Morrigan Arcane Warrior, do it if you like, but it would ruin my game if I did it, or if I made Wynne a Blood Mage (even worse). I'd trade away those options in a second for a more unique appearance on companions.

I can still understand why they keep all different amor changes in DA, at the expence of uniqueness, because high fantasy tradition is a lot about magical weapons and oufits to find and equip, but I'm all happy about the direction they took in ME2 and I woldn't mind if it rubbed of onto future installments of DA,even if I doubt it.

/Edit. The unique equipments, like Morrigan's robe is a great compromise and I hope they can expand on it.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 16 février 2010 - 01:24 .

[Hel]

What I failed to express Xandurpein managed to string together in a coherent post, thanks for that!

Modifié par Helekanalaith, 16 février 2010 - 01:58 .

[Ralnith]

Xandurpein wrote...

[...] for me an RPG is a RPG because I play a role. I act out a charcters adventure. It's the storydriven adventure and conversations that make DA a wonderful RPG, not the equipment or the levelling. To me Mass Effect 2 would be a great RPG even if they removed the whole levelling altogether.

I agree that it's totally out of character to make Morrigan Arcane Warrior, do it if you like, but it would ruin my game if I did it, or if I made Wynne a Blood Mage (even worse). I'd trade away those options in a second for a more unique appearance on companions. [...]

I agree completely. In Planescape: Torment, for example, you could never get a new set of armor or clothing for the PC (and you only got a new suit for 2 companions, but they were like the upgrade to their old clothing) and some party members couldn't even change their weapons, but I personally never felt like it was a bad thing.

Besides, there is not really a variety of choices in DA:O anyway. Loads of items and only 1 or 2 actually worth taking (*cough* mage equipment *cough*). I don't think we would lose anything if they left the entire itemization out completely. It's not like Sten would use anything other than Asala anyway.

[Sabriana]

Helekanalaith wrote...

No, that's not what I was saying.

Dressing up and specializing companions to your heart's desires is a nice feature, but from a roleplaying perspective it makes little sense if you ask me. Turning Morrigan into an Arcane Warrior or Alistair into a Reaver simply doesn't fit their characters. She is defined as a proficient magic user and he's the embodiment of innocence -- specializing her as a martial combatant while he becomes a soul-feasting terror is the exact opposite of what they represent.

Now if someone can justify those changes in their character to me from a roleplaying perspective I might reconsider my opinion, but until then I'll see it as nothing more than playing some Sims variant in a different theme.

Also, this was completely off-topic, we're discussing the appearances here. <_<

Oh, then I did misunderstand, and I apologize. But I do disagree, nevertheless. AW are not good or evil by definition, they can be good or evil. However, in some of my games, Morrigan is seen by my PC's as growing and trying to understand friendship and bonding. In some, she's as cold as ice and conniving. As to the former, she can very  well become an AW, in the latter, she cannot become a Spirit Healer. I can't even make her a Blood Mage, because, well, she doesn't like demons. There's a section in the game that shows that, I can't get more detailed, it's a spoiler.

Wynne, I completely agree. I'd never even consider making her a Blood Mage, but that's my personal choice. I do like to fiddle with them, give them amor/robes that fits their in-game development and such. However, there'd be no way I'd stick Wynne in the Chasind Robe. But I don't see anything wrong with Morrigan wearing it. She still has her unique outfit, and it will go only on her.

I wouldn't mind if the NPC comps had unique clothing, but I do want the option to stick them in something else.

[AlanC9]

Edit: about time the double post thing hit me, I guess

Modifié par AlanC9, 16 février 2010 - 06:48 .

[AlanC9]

Yeah, I put Morrigan in the Chasind Robe for a while too. But I couldn't take the way it looked after a while. Who was it dubbed them the Chasind Robes of Breast Enlargement?

[JoHnDoE14]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I prefer the ME 2 model of unique armor, clothing, and design to the Dragon Age: Origins model of using the same bodies and armors as that of regular NPCs and the PC. Morrigan managed to get her ‘Morrigan specific’ outfit, and I’d have like to see the same for Leliana, Sten, Alistair, etc.

 Agreed. Although some more amount of control than ME2 offered would be appreciated.