270 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

That said, in DA, I spent 75% of the game in the same two armor sets (Blood Dragon and Legion of the Dead), which made it look like I only had two sets of clothing.

Thats not really a fair assesment, there were plenty more choices in DA than just Blood Dragon or Legion armor. Sophia's armor from Watchers isn't half bad, nor is the upgraded drake skin, or the king's set from RTO just as a few examples.

Watcher's Keep and Return to Ostigar aren't part of the OC. For all we know, BioWare might offer a ME 2 DLC with nothing but dress up options for the squad.

Which is beside the point, I didn't say there were only two armor choices. I said that it looked like my character only had two sets of armor. I never found this problematic as I don't consider an RPG 'lame' if I'm not constantly changing my clothing. For my next ME 2 game, I plan to have my character wear the Cerberus armor for the entire game. I never had issues with Jade Empire's lack of clothing options.

I think playing dollhouse is fun and spent a good hour fiddling around with the customization options for Shepard's armor in ME 2. But for me, it's just not an essential RPG element.

You should understand through that I tend to be very focused on companions as not being an extention of the player or PC. For example, I'd be happy if the companions had their own level up/ development scheme and the player's only influence was in-game. (Example: hardening Leliana would have her take the assassin specialization while keeping her as is would open up a 'blessed warrior' specialization.)

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 10 février 2010 - 07:36 .

[Seagloom]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Abriael_CG wrote...

They looked like they had only one set of clothing through the entire game, which in an RPG is lame.

I didn't find it lame. For me, companions are an important part of RPGs, and unique designs and abilities reinforce their personality. The ability for the PC to be able to select different clothing is important because it's a form of customization.

That said, in DA, I spent 75% of the game in the same two armor sets (Blood Dragon and Legion of the Dead), which made it look like I only had two sets of clothing.

Thats not really a fair assesment, there were plenty more choices in DA than just Blood Dragon or Legion armor. Sophia's armor from Watchers isn't half bad, nor is the upgraded drake skin, or the king's set from RTO just as a few examples.

In ME2 you're not even picking different clothing really, ooo I can put my companions in a black version or their normal color varient of whats esentially the same outfit. Yeah lot of choice there.

The problem is most of those choices were not worthwhile. Sure, if you stumbled upon a nice armor set for free, you equip it right away until finding better armor. For the most part though, real choices were nonexistent. There were plenty of heavy and massive armor sets, but what it always boiled down to was two, *maybe* three sets total for the particular role you had in mind for a party member. It was always clear what was intended as tank or DPS armor, and that was further escaberated by the limited amount of accessories. It led to everyone ending up in pretty much the best equipment for their party role at that moment in the game; which in turn shackles them to a single look anyway.

Beyond that, I think there may be a misunderstanding here. The idea isn't removing armor options from the game. Rather, it's to keep those options while maintaining a set visual appearance.

Modifié par Seagloom, 10 février 2010 - 07:46 .

[Maria Caliban]

Abriael_CG wrote...

Interesting, since the companions in ME definitely lack in the uniqueness of their abilities, they're easily interchangeable with one another.

Every ME 2 squadmate has a special ability.

There's no need to reinforce a companion's personality having him wear the same lame piece of clothing through the whole game...

There's no need to enforce a companions personality by giving them unique power, clothing, voice actor, side-quests, approval bonuses, or backstory either. There's no *need* for companion personality in the first place, it's simply a desire.

As I desire companion personality, I enjoy it being expressed in a wide range of ways. Unique designs is one of those ways and one I like.

[Onyx Jaguar]

I'd prefer a combination of the two. The first ME did this somewhat with regards to Garrus, Tali and Wrex. I personally like the outfits in ME 2 better but I wish there was more variety and a chance to put them in armor. Pretty much only Jack and Miranda have outfits that looked different (all including theirs pretty much palette swaps). In that regard Garrus and Legion were especially disappointing.



I personally wish that they would allow the DL outfits avaiable for other crewmembers.

But I will say that in DA it would have been neat if all of the characters had a default outfit like Morrigan, but the options were better in DA than ME 2. With regards to the overall character model quality? ME 2 destroys DA.



One thing that DA did a little bit of (that ME did slightly) was have different looking armor depending on who was wearing it (Male v Female, another example would be Heavy Chainmail and how it looks on a Human V Elf, same with robes). An extension to that could be character specific, or have other character traits show in their clothing that would differ from the default.

[Maria Caliban]

Seagloom wrote...

Beyond that, I think there may be a misunderstanding here. The idea isn't removing armor options from the game. Rather, it's to keep those options while maintaining a set visual appearance.

Yes, I'm not asking to remove all armor options.

However, and I assume this is the concept people object to, a unique appearance will lead to less armor options over all for companions. There are only so many zots.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 10 février 2010 - 07:46 .

[hexaligned]

I don't need my bad girls in black leather to be able to pick up on nuances of personality. I'd much rather have it revealed through story elements. I'm not disagreeing with you in princable, I'm sure SOMEONE could make a system that I would enjoy...after ME2 I don't trust Bioware to do it though.

[Abriael_CG]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Every ME 2 squadmate has a special ability.

Yes. One. That's just a TAD limited (and extremely dumbed down).

There's no need to enforce a companions personality by giving them unique power, clothing, voice actor, side-quests, approval bonuses, or backstory either. There's no *need* for companion personality in the first place, it's simply a desire.

yes, and in DA:O is much deeper in those elements than in ME2. It's that simple. Saying that companion personality in DA:O isn't characterized more than enough simply means not having played the game.

They're adventurers, on a battlefield. Adventurers on a battlefield wear the best and most practical equipment they can find. They're not models on a catwalk, and mind you, even models on a catwalk don't wear the same outfit for the entire show.

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 10 février 2010 - 08:07 .

[Abriael_CG]

Maria Caliban wrote...

However, and I assume this is the concept people object to, a unique appearance will lead to less armor options over all for companions. There are only so many zots.

Yes, and Bioware used very few zots at all in character development and visual itemization for ME2, hence, it's definitely not the example to follow.

There are plenty elements to characterize a person other than clothing. If you NEED clothing to characterize them, then you failed to begin with.

The "unique" (literally) clothing in ME2 is the result of bioware massively cutting corners in development and model design. I'd definitely avoid encouraging development lazyness.

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 10 février 2010 - 08:08 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Abriael_CG wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

However, and I assume this is the concept people object to, a unique appearance will lead to less armor options over all for companions. There are only so many zots.

Yes, and Bioware used very few zots at all in character development and visual itemization for ME2, hence, it's definitely not the example to follow.

There are plenty elements to characterize a person other than clothing. If you NEED clothing to characterize them, then you failed to begin with.

The "unique" (literally) clothing in ME2 is the result of bioware massively cutting corners in development and model design. I'd definitely avoid encouraging development lazyness.

Agreed 100%, Its clear they used very few zots at all when it comes to character looks and item/visual upgrades on the whole.

[Maria Caliban]

Abriael_CG wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Every ME 2 squadmate has a special ability.

Yes. One. That's just a TAD limited (and extremely dumbed down).

Only three compaions - Dog, Shale, and Wynne - have special abilities, and Wynne only has one. That seems just as 'dumbed down' if not more so.

However, I don't think using terms like 'dumbed down' and 'lame' add anything to the conversation. While I'd *like* to see DA 2 give companions special abilities like ME 2 does, I don't think retaining the DA model would dumb down anything.

yes, and in DA:O is much deeper in those elements than in ME2. It's that simple. Saying that companion personality in DA:O isn't characterized more than enough simply means not having played the game.

You appear to be arguing against something I’ve never said or implied. I like defined personalities for companions; I like unique character designs that enforce those personalities. That has nothing to do with whether the companions in DA were 'deep.'

I also think 'if you disagree with me then you haven't played the game' is something of a cheap conversational tactic. Everyone else in this thread has been able to express why they prefer the DA system without belittling me for having a different opinion.

[Maria Caliban]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Abriael_CG wrote...

The "unique" (literally) clothing in ME2 is the result of bioware massively cutting corners in development and model design. I'd definitely avoid encouraging development lazyness.

Agreed 100%, Its clear they used very few zots at all when it comes to character looks and item/visual upgrades on the whole.

As I said previously, keeping unique character designs does not mean there's be no ability to change armor, though there would be less.

However, I prefer Mass Effect 2's low-zot handling of companions to Dragon Age's also-fairly-low-zot handling of characters.

[Abriael_CG]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Only three compaions - Dog, Shale, and Wynne - have special abilities, and Wynne only has one. That seems just as 'dumbed down' if not more so.

The difference is that each of them has hundreds of ability combination, that makes their contribution to battle extremely different from each other, in ME2 each companion is 100% interchangeable. They have 4 abilities each, most of which are common, that's the very definition of dull and uncharacterized.

You appear to be arguing against something I’ve never said or implied. I like defined personalities for companions; I like unique character designs that enforce those personalities.

Always wearing the same set of clothing isn't "unique character design" it's cutting corners. Majorly. Not to mention a backward leap into the stone age of RPGs. Even JRPG developers are finally looking in more varied visual itemization now. And it was about time.

Maria Caliban wrote...
However, I prefer Mass Effect 2's
low-zot handling of companions to Dragon Age's also-fairly-low-zot
handling of characters.

Sorry but no. The handling of characters in DA is not "low-zot" the amount of resources gone in visual itemization (not to mention basically all the other aspects) is immensely higher compared to the almost zero used in ME2.

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 10 février 2010 - 08:47 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Maria Caliban wrote...

As I said previously, keeping unique character designs does not mean there's be no ability to change armor, though there would be less.

However, I prefer Mass Effect 2's low-zot handling of companions to Dragon Age's also-fairly-low-zot handling of characters.

Basically you're saying you perfer that ME2 has one outfit and a varient for each character, less skills to invest in than ME1 and somehow that makes them unique because the player has zero customization options? Doesn't make much sense to me but hey whatever makes you happy I guess?

DA has tons of skills and different armor variations while not all unique obviously, blow ME2's customization to absolute shreds, its not even a contest.

[Lucy Glitter]

I think i will side with ME2. Samara stuns me. I can't choose anyone's face over hers. It's so amazingly gorgeous. I always did like Leliana, though. Hrm. I guess I will side with the more realistic look. 

I kinda like the characters having their own armour. It makes them unique. I would like femshep to have some cool outfits, too, but alas.

Modifié par Lucy_Glitter, 10 février 2010 - 09:02 .

[Maria Caliban]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

As I said previously, keeping unique character designs does not mean there's be no ability to change armor, though there would be less.

However, I prefer Mass Effect 2's low-zot handling of companions to Dragon Age's also-fairly-low-zot handling of characters.

Basically you're saying you perfer that ME2 has one outfit and a varient for each character...

Yes, I prefer the unique design in ME 2 to how companions were handled in Dragon Age.

...less skills to invest in than ME1...

I'll I've said about skills is that I'd like companions to have unique ones. I haven't mentioned ME 1 at all. I am not sure where this misunderstanding is coming from.

...and somehow that makes them unique because the player has zero customization options?

Again, I'm not sure where you're getting this. I'll rephrase everything I've said:

1. I like the ME 2 system of unique character designs for companions.
2. I'd been willing to have less armor options if those unique designs were implemented.
3. I like it when companions have unique powers or abilities.
4. I don't consider an RPG 'lame' if you can't change clothing.
5. I don't consider an RPG 'dumbed down' if companions don't have unique abilities.
6. I see player customization as something that most important for the player character.
7. I like squad mates to be autonomous from the player, and would even support a system where they had their own level up scheme that the player didn't control. As in, you couldn't put points into Leliana's DW school, because she'd automatically go for the archery skills.

[SurfaceBeneath]

They're both very different games obviously. Mass Effect was definitely going for the more cinematic route of having characters wear certain outfits so they are always immediately recognizable. Also, Mass Effect 2 was pretty much divorced from gear based progression.

In Dragon Age, gear upgrades are an important part of progression, so it's vital that our companions be given access to a wide variety of gear types to wear as they progress. This does tend to come with that drawback that party members tend to look very "sameish" at least when it comes to respective members of each class. It doesn't bother me too much, especially if you get that mod that removes helmets out of combat, but I can definitely see the appeal of wanting your party to feel a bit more... iconic, I guess is the word. I remember how utterly thrilled I was when I got the upgraded Morrigan dress from Flemeth, for example, as it was one of the strongest robes in the game, yet still made Morrigan look uniquely Morrigan.

A combination of the two systems might be best, with the NPC getting their own direct line of upgraded clothing that still retains their identity. Alternatively, a heavily customizable system in which each piece of clothing can be altered (sort of like the N7 armor in ME2) so that you, the player, can keep your party looking unique even throughout gear changes (my Leliana would be permanently dressed in Pink )

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 10 février 2010 - 01:20 .

[Selvec_Darkon]

Can't compare the two games. They use different generations of graphics engines.

[David Gaider]

There are definitely advantages to having a "set" model for companion characters, that's true. They acquire a unique look that does not need to be made "one size fits all" with the regular armor sets, and thus can look different from everyone else in the game. That makes them more visually interesting. At the same time, there's a drawback with regards to less customization.



I doubt the idea is going to get much support here, since the prevailing opinion is usually "freedom=all" -- but I don't think more interesting-looking companions is necessarily a bad thing, so long as other sorts of customization are allowed elsewhere. It's certainly something to consider.

[corebit]

David Gaider wrote...

There are definitely advantages to having a "set" model for companion characters, that's true. They acquire a unique look that does not need to be made "one size fits all" with the regular armor sets, and thus can look different from everyone else in the game. That makes them more visually interesting. At the same time, there's a drawback with regards to less customization.

I doubt the idea is going to get much support here, since the prevailing opinion is usually "freedom=all" -- but I don't think more interesting-looking companions is necessarily a bad thing, so long as other sorts of customization are allowed elsewhere. It's certainly something to consider.

Compared to DA:O and even ME1, ME2 companion customization is NON-EXISTENT. You can't equip different armors on them since the inventory no longer exists, and the only way to customize is after completing the companion quests in ME2 you are awarded with a "re-color" of their original armor.

The companion "set" models only look cool for the first time or two. After that, seeing them wear the same stuff all the time gets old really fast. ME2 took a huge step backwards in this area, and I hope Bioware do not take this route in their future games.

[Ubasti]

I would have loved to have more of those unique outfits on other party members as well in DA, the same way Morrigan has, and especially for my character. But luckily there are lot of armors say I, to be able to make the characters more unique. Yes, I tend to change my character's armor a lot, depending on situations, so I always keep more than one or two sets with me, and get rid of them only near the end. There are also some good armor to be bought in the game, which I never knew about before I read these forums.

And there's also the option to make the party members to autolevel, if one wishes to. I've never used it, since I want to have control over them, but I know my husband would use such a feature happily, he hates having to do all the work in a game.

I also wouldn't like the thing, that I'd have to choose who I take with me in a game depending on his/her abilities. I want to choose the npcs who are with me because my character happens to like them, not because they are useful. So I want to be able to make them useful and only consider their personalities. Because the personalities are what makes a RPG for me, not the abilities not even the looks.

[David Gaider]

corebit wrote...
Compared to DA:O and even ME1, ME2 companion customization is NON-EXISTENT.

Perhaps, but it doesn't necessarily have to work in the exact same way, either. A set model doesn't have to mean customization is completely removed outside of their look -- and while some people may not like the idea of such a set look all I'm suggesting (as Maria is) is that there are benefits to be had just like there are drawbacks to having companions use generic armor models. Customization is not win/win on all fronts.

[Curlain]

First off I have to say I have only played ME 1 at this point, but I would not like set looks to companions in future DA games (I don't mind them starting with a unique outfit, I think KOTOR companions had something like this, at least Bastila and Carth did, but I think like there you should be able to change it as you will), customization allows you to develop your party is you like, which seems to be one of the key characteristic of character and party building in classical RPG games like DA. I also disagree that it distracts from the character of your party companions as this comes through in their banter, their extensive conversations and their reactions. Also, customization does not remove a unique look from your companions, far from it, once you get an idea of a character trait or look preference from a companion you can customize them in armour or clothing that reflects that character and class, you can even mix armour and such to provide or maintain the unique look as you go along.



Anyway, I for one would rather not see this idea in further DA games

[Hel]

I'm with Maria Caliban on this issue.

Even more so, I dare say that I prefer Mass Effect 2's system entirely over Dragon Age Origins'. In both games you play your own character, in ME2 that character goes by the name of Shepard, while in DAO it depends on your origin of choice. You gather a group of companions during the storyline and set out as a group to see it through.

Now why should you, as the player of the main character, have a say in what other companions should wear? I never understood that in any of the RPGs that I've played. They aren't your dolls and in most stories you aren't adventuring with
your children either. Not to mention that sometimes you can even steal a companion's armour without getting a remark about it, how ridiculous is that! And I'm not even going to touch the subject of swapping armours out of the confinements of your camp or being able to carry around more items than a bloody pack mule.

Egads. I'd rather have companions have a preset list of armours that you can discover over the course of the storyline. Other than those armours the companions will simply not wear them. Not only does this give the companions a more believable personality, but it also allows the developers to create some custom appearances for the said companions.

Mass Effect 2 came through with this idea to some degree, but sadly the secondary armours where nothing more than reskins of the primary armours.
I vote yes on unique appearances for key NPC's!

Modifié par Helekanalaith, 10 février 2010 - 05:06 .

[Bfler]

I like it to dress my PC and the members in my group and to have the choice between many combinations of talents, spells. The direct link between equipment and character attributes, skills is also a very important fact for me.

That is almost nonexistent in ME2. There is no development of your team mates besides a few weapon enhancements. They use the same basic outfit, the same weapons, abilites during the whole game. Through that the whole fun of character customisation and also the motivation for further playthroughs gets lost.

If Bioware wants to continue such a simplified gameplay I hope they will drag a line between DA and ME. DA should stay as it is.

[axdorffe]

just an idea but you could do something like have a pre set type of armor appearence for say the different grades of armor on each character and then to not break immersion you could have each companion say something along the lines of "thank you for the armor, ill have to do some work on it though if im going to use it." that way it could fit something more along the lines of the unique companion model only idea with a slight play of variation and possibly color change scheme? i dont know im just suggesting an alternative I am happy the way each system works in both games so no complaining here