270 réponses à ce sujet

[Abriael_CG]

David Gaider wrote...
That's over-simplifying matters. 5-year development cycles aren't sustainable for any developer in the long term, and aren't necessary once you've got a working engine and existing content.

Thankfully. But given that you're working with an existing engine, why changing what works well? Evolution is always a good thing, when it isn't actually involution disguised as evolution. That's what many (me included) associated to the ME2 approach to companion customization (or lack of thereof).
If unique clothing is an addition over what we already have, welcome and thank you
If it means removing the ability to put massive armor on Morrigan (or a morrigan-like character) sending her in close combat wearing courtesan-wear (not that I have anything against courtesan-wear, in the appropriate situations...), then no, I wouldn't be that happy <_<

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 10 février 2010 - 10:28 .

[hexaligned]

David Gaider wrote...


But it's a theoretical debate. I'm not the lead designer and the decision wouldn't be mine, so I'm not going to start hashing it out here. I think there are plenty of players who like RPG's, however, who would be more than happy to see some changes if it meant some improvements in the game overall -- even if that meant having to endure the mass suicides on the forums.

O World O Life O Time
On whose last steps I climb,
Trembling at that where I had stood before;
When will return the glory of your prime?
No more -Oh, never more

Out of the day and night
All joy has taken flight:
Fresh spring, and summer, and winter hoar
Move my faint heart with grief, but with delight
No more -Oh, never more

sung as I /wrists with my Stone Prisoner DLC card
Which, as it turns out, is a pain in the ass.  -5 points for not having the foresight to include a razor blade with every copy Bioware.  For shame.

Modifié par relhart, 10 février 2010 - 10:44 .

[David Gaider]

Abriael_CG wrote...
Thankfully. But given that you're working with an existing engine, why changing what works well? Evolution is always a good thing, when it isn't actually involution disguised as evolution. That's what many (me included) associated to the ME2 approach to companion customization (or lack of thereof).
If unique clothing is an addition over what we already have, welcome and thank you
If it means removing the ability to put massive armor on Morrigan (or a morrigan-like character) sending her in close combat wearing courtesan-wear (not that I have anything against courtesan-wear, in the appropriate situations...), then no, I wouldn't be that happy <_<

I imagine not. But I suspect we're going to take Dragon Age in a direction that suits us, regardless of where others think it ought to go. What direction that might be is hard to say, but I doubt we're going to always agree on what works well and what ought to be changed.

[Abriael_CG]

David Gaider wrote...

I imagine not. But I suspect we're going to take Dragon Age in a direction that suits us, regardless of where others think it ought to go. What direction that might be is hard to say, but I doubt we're going to always agree on what works well and what ought to be changed.

No one disputed the fact that you're entitled to do so (well, no one provided with a minimal degree of sanity...). Quite a few people here are just expressing the fact that such a choice would paint them disappointed, since it's seen as cutting corners. This doesn't mean we're gonna throw darts against a board with bioware's logo on it, or that we will stop buying your games.
We're providing feedback, do with it what you will


PS: i'm entirely aware that the amount of demands and whines in the forum is sickening, but rest assured, not everyone is here to dictate the ingredients of your morning breakfast 
Personally, I appreciate a lot your work on the game and the fact that some of you take your time to converse here personally, I give opinions exactly because I consider DA one of the IPs with the most potential out there at the moment, and as such I care. This doesn't mean that I won't support it if the game isn't 100% tailored over my tastes.

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 10 février 2010 - 10:56 .

[Maria Caliban]

Abriael_CG wrote...

Helekanalaith wrote...
Now why should you, as the player of the main character, have a say in what other companions should wear?

Going by the same reasoning, why should you have a say on the skills they have?

You shouldn't.

Why should you have a say on what they do?

You shouldn't.

So let's make companions 100% AI controlled, with completely automatic skilling up and absolutely zero imput from the player?

Yes.

In ME 1 and 2, I let the companions do what they wanted during the battle 90% of the time, and only took over when the AI struggled. The only reason the system in DA is acceptable is that there's no way the AI can handle the complexity of many of the fights. The player having to control the companions is a product of technical limitation.

[MandatoryDenial1]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I prefer the ME 2 model of unique armor, clothing, and design to the Dragon Age: Origins model of using the same bodies and armors as that of regular NPCs and the PC. Morrigan managed to get her ‘Morrigan specific’ outfit, and I’d have like to see the same for Leliana, Sten, Alistair, etc.

Agreed 100% there.  I was actually kind of amazed that Leilana's outfit changed to much.  After seeing that video of her climbing a mountain with Sten Morrigan and the PC, I thought she was going to keep that outfit pretty much all game.

Also some of the mage armors just looked bizarre.  The hats looked incredibly goofy.  I would have vastly preferred a ME2 armor appearance system.  I also would have loved to have gotten more trophies to improve your existing armor like in ME 2.

Modifié par MandatoryDenial1, 11 février 2010 - 12:06 .

[Maria Caliban]

I'd forgotten that David has great interweb argument stamina.

[Abriael_CG]

Maria Caliban wrote...
In ME 1 and 2, I let the companions do what they wanted during the battle 90% of the time, and only took over when the AI struggled. The only reason the system in DA is acceptable is that there's no way the AI can handle the complexity of many of the fights. The player having to control the companions is a product of technical limitation.

Lol. This is absolutely laughable. With the tactics system you can let the DA companions do their own without any kind of imput and they will behave in a MUCH more intelligent and less disruptive way than in ME2. I lost count of all the times the absolutely stupid ME2 companions simply rushed in the middle of focused fire only to get maimed  mercilessly, or all the times in which they suddenly decided that their perfectly advantageous position was no good, and they had to go find a "better" position exactly in the middle of my line of fire.
Companions exclusively moved by artificial stupidity of the level of ME2 only force you to babysit them all the time.

DA:O = Both options
ME2 = Only one option, and badly implemented
It's pretty much easy to understand which is better.

The ability to control the companions is there because a whole lot of people like to be able to play their party in a tactical way, instead of the mindless and dumbed down action-like approach of Mass Effect 2.

Looking at your posts, you seem extremely eager to encourage bioware to dumb down as much as possible their games. No visual itemization, no tactical control of the party, what's the next thing you'll ask them to remove, spell variation so that every companion only has 4 skills like in ME2?

Go play ME2, which is basically a different genre (a third person shooter with a story), instead of coming here asking Bioware to turn Dragon Age in a dumbed down action game.

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 11 février 2010 - 12:21 .

[Maria Caliban]

Abriael_CG wrote...

The ability to control the companions is there because a whole lot of people like to be able to play their party in a tactical way, instead of the mindless and dumbed down action-like approach of Mass Effect 2.

The ability to control companions is there because too many people conflate RPGs with wargames. I've played PnP for years now, and the only time I got to control my companion's actions was when someone couldn't make it to the group or I'd gotten enough successes on my Dominate roll.

There’s nothing wrong with enjoying party-based combat, but it’s antithetical to role-playing. The less direct control I have over my party members, the better. That's why I liked the approval system in Dragon Age; it reminded you that your companions were not mindless drones but characters with their own thoughts and opinions.

Abriael_CG wrote...
Go play ME2...

Given that I have an ME2 icon, that this subject is contrasting ME 2 with DA, and that we've had discussions on the ME 2 boards, I find it odd that you're unawares of my having played ME 2.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 11 février 2010 - 12:25 .

[Merci357]

Abriael_CG wrote...

PS: i'm entirely aware that the amount of demands and whines in the forum is sickening, but rest assured, not everyone is here to dictate the ingredients of your morning breakfast 
Personally, I appreciate a lot your work on the game and the fact that some of you take your time to converse here personally, I give opinions exactly because I consider DA one of the IPs with the most potential out there at the moment, and as such I care. This doesn't mean that I won't support it if the game isn't 100% tailored over my tastes.

Keep your own words in mind before answering in such tone, thanks. All we do here is arguing about a game we care about, about opinions, no hard facts. There's no right or wrong when it comes down to taste, and you abviously don't agree with Maria. That's fine, let's agree to disagree, but your holy opinion isn't any fact, either.

[Abriael_CG]

Maria Caliban wrote...
The ability to control companions is there because too many people conflate RPGs with wargames. I've played PnP for years now, and the only time I got to control my companion's actions was when someone couldn't make it to the group or I'd gotten enough successes on my Dominate roll.

There’s nothing wrong with enjoying party-based combat, but it’s antithetical to role-playing. The less direct control I have over my party members, the better. That's why I liked the approval system in Dragon Age; it reminded you that your companions were not mindless drones but characters with their own thoughts and opinions.

Computer Role Playing Games are their own genre of entertainment. They are not pen and paper role playing games. If you want pen and paper, just get a group of friends and play that.
Tactical party control is not antithetical to anything, as you play the role of a leader, and as such you can dictate the movements of your companions, their equipment and so forth.

The abiliy to control companions is there simply because people enjoy it. If you don't like it, games like Dragon Age allow you to completely disregard it. Advocating the removal of an option many enjoy in order to satisfy your pen and paper elitism is absolutely laughable. 

Abriael_CG wrote...
Given that I have an ME2 icon, that this subject is contrasting ME 2 with DA, and that we've had discussions on the ME 2 boards, I find it odd that you're unawares of my having played ME 2.

I'm perfectly aware of that. That's why I'm telling you to play that and be happy that you have one game that fits your taste, instead of coming here and advocating that they should change another game, that's obviously made to fit a different demographics (people that enjoy tactical party management and customization) in order to fit yours.

Merci357 wrote...
Keep your own words in mind before answering in such tone, thanks. All we do here is arguing about a game
we care about, about opinions, no hard facts. There's no right or wrong when it comes down to taste, and you abviously don't agree with Maria.
That's fine, let's agree to disagree, but your holy opinion isn't any fact, either.

At least I don't go to the Mass Effect 2 forum spamming that ME3 should be like Dragon Age, which, by the way, would be borderline trolling.

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 11 février 2010 - 12:42 .

[orpheus333]

I actually quite like how ME2 has a more consistent less generic look for each NPC. Where ME1 and DA have the NPCs clothing based on the players choice of gear i think it nice to have each NPC have a more dedicated artistic style about them. I think it frees up the artists to create a more unique world and i'm not sure thats a bad thing. Although it would be nice to be able to customize within the NPCs theme. Similar to how Shepard is customized in ME2 (Which is a huge improvement on ME1 in terms of visual freedom, with the draw back being hardly any mechanical reason for armour at all)

[Abriael_CG]

andyr1986 wrote...
(Which is a huge improvement on ME1 in terms of visual freedom

You mean the fact that in ME2 your helmet is nailed to your head? 
yeah... a true "huge improvement".  You can even drink through it...

This is the ultimate proof that the ME2 approach has been a simple way to cut corners and dedicate less resources to character modeling and interface, which is honestly sad.

[Maria Caliban]

Abriael_CG wrote...
At least I don't go to the Mass Effect 2 forum spamming that ME3 should be like Dragon Age, which, by the way, would be borderline trolling.

I've started one thread about how one aspect of the game might be changed, you're not interested, therefore I am 'spamming' and 'borderline trolling.'

You are so full of s***.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Yes because they left out a button press in the menu screen, they obviously spent less resources making it.

Edit:  Someone beat me by a post, so this post should have had a quote to the post above the post above mine

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 11 février 2010 - 12:49 .

[Abriael_CG]

Maria Caliban wrote...
I've started one thread about how one aspect of the game might be changed, you're not interested, therefore I am 'spamming' and 'borderline trolling.'

You've come here telling basically how several aspects (customization first, then companion management as a whole and tactical party combat) of the Dragon Age  franchise should be dumbed down like they have been in ME2. You shouldn't be surpsided by the fact that people that happen to play (CRPGs, to which genre Dragon Age belongs, and ME2 doesn't belong) aren't pleased.

Try going to the Modern Warfare forums telling that they should make it a racing game since Forza Motorsport 3 is so great. I'm sure they'll be delighted.

You like action shooters with some sparse RPG element? That's great for you. That doesn't mean that every game should be like that. The market has different genres (and Bioware makes games of different genres) because people like different genres.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Abriael_CG wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
I've started one thread about how one aspect of the game might be changed, you're not interested, therefore I am 'spamming' and 'borderline trolling.'

You've come here telling basically how several aspects (customization first, then companion management as a whole and tactical party combat) of the Dragon Age  franchise should be dumbed down like they have been in ME2. You shouldn't be surpsided by the fact that people that happen to play (CRPGs, to which genre Dragon Age belongs, and ME2 doesn't belong) aren't pleased.

Try going to the Modern Warfare forums telling that they should make it a racing game since Forza Motorsport 3 is so great. I'm sure they'll be delighted.

You like action shooters with some sparse RPG element? That's great for you. That doesn't mean that every game should be like that. The market has different genres (and Bioware makes games of different genres) because people like different genres.

From reading this thread it seems like you are more interested in picking a fight than saying anything useful.

[Abriael_CG]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...
From reading this thread it seems like you are more interested in picking a fight than saying anything useful.

Not really. Actually your oneliners could be quite more easily identified with trying to "pick a fight" and they sure don't add much to the discussion.

I'm just noticing how some people think that, since they love a genre, every game out there should fit that genre, screwing over people that happen to like another genre.

ME2 and DA:O are different genres. There's a wide audience for both genres, so there's no reason why DA should switch to ME's genre. It's that simple.

[orpheus333]

Abriael_CG wrote...

andyr1986 wrote...
(Which is a huge improvement on ME1 in terms of visual freedom

You mean the fact that in ME2 your helmet is nailed to your head? 
yeah... a true "huge improvement".  You can even drink through it...

This is the ultimate proof that the ME2 approach has been a simple way to cut corners and dedicate less resources to character modeling and interface, which is honestly sad.

Under Armour Customization, Helmet. Move the slider to the far left.

It appears you maybe the one cutting corners and dedicating less resources to character modeling and the interface. Which is honestly sad.

Modifié par andyr1986, 11 février 2010 - 01:02 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

I do not see how these are genre specific. RPG's across the board adapt a variety of what has been mentioned in this thread, I don't see what the overall problem is. Plus if you compare ME 1, ME 2 and DA it is clear which game of those three is the most polished. Some poor interface decisions keep it from being perfect but they don't break the game.

EDIT:  Also of the two one liners I made, one which was an actual comment by the way, they have been far tamer than the tone of this thread overall

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 11 février 2010 - 01:05 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

andyr1986 wrote...

Abriael_CG wrote...

andyr1986 wrote...
(Which is a huge improvement on ME1 in terms of visual freedom

You mean the fact that in ME2 your helmet is nailed to your head? 
yeah... a true "huge improvement".  You can even drink through it...

This is the ultimate proof that the ME2 approach has been a simple way to cut corners and dedicate less resources to character modeling and interface, which is honestly sad.

Under Armour Customization, Helmet. Move the slider to the far left.

It appears you maybe the one cutting corners and dedicating less resources to character modeling and the interface. Which is honestly sad.

I disagree, you should have that option in the main menu screen like you do in the first ME since you go around cities and in combat zones in the same uniform.

[Abriael_CG]

andyr1986 wrote
Under Armour Customization, Helmet. Move the slider to the far left.

It appears you maybe the one cutting corners and dedicating less resources to character modeling and the interface. Which is honestly sad.

Yeah because the ability to remove your helmet only when you're in your room (not even for drinking, let alone talking to people) is very, very smart.

ME1 had a command to toggle your helmet on and off at any given time, if you didn't notice, hence in ME2, your helmet is nailed to your head unless you use the screwdriver in your room, apparently.

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I do not see how these are genre
specific. RPG's across the board adapt a variety of what has been
mentioned in this thread, I don't see what the overall problem is. Plus
if you compare ME 1, ME 2 and DA it is clear which game of those three
is the most polished. Some poor interface decisions don't make it
perfect but they don't break the game.

ME2 is definitely not a polished game. There are so many issues with being stuck in geometry (walking on top of walls and not being able to drop back down, forcing to reload a save game) that it's not even funny. The lack of visual customization, companions that suddenly lose their loyal status without you doing anything, the absolutely abysmal and glitchy artificial intelligence and of the inability to toggle the helmet are just further elements in a whole game of cornercutting to make the dealine, that obviously was a tad too near.

[orpheus333]

I disagree, you should have that option in the main menu screen like you do in the first ME since you go around cities and in combat zones in the same uniform.

True. But its hardly 'nailed' to shepards head. Although they could go the same way as DA and have the head gear magically disappear which i find equally jaring.

[Justin2k]

I love ME, its my favorite game of all.



But Dragon age is dragon age. I like the quirkiness, i like putting leliana in a chantry dress, i like the itemisation. I'd rather dragon age stays as it is for the expansion with a little bit of being souped up for the sequel.

[Onyx Jaguar]

These same problems are in DA though (except perhaps the loyalty, which seemed to be bugged post released imo, and of course the customization) comparatively of those three I found less bugs in ME 2 than DA or ME

EDIT:  Again I need to use quote button more effeciently  

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 11 février 2010 - 01:12 .