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Companion models: ME 2 vs DA


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#126
Abriael_CG

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David Gaider wrote...
Quite a feat, apparently, since we borrowed their system for our facial expressions.


But you didn't borrow the models it seems (thankfully), given that the same system gives very different results. The most evident result is that in DA:O human eyes point both on the same direction, in many cases in ME and ME2 they don't.

The use of the same system doesn't necessarily lead to the same results. If it did, i wouldn't be such an happy camper. Expressions have been one on the weakest points on humans since mass effect 1 and the problem returned in ME2, while they're one of the strongest points in DA:O.

Better implementation? better compatibility with the 3D models? Simply more attention and fine tuning? I wouldn't know. What i know is that the difference in results (and in characterization) is pretty evident.

So yeah, quite a feat, my congratulations to the ones that pulled it ^_^

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 11 février 2010 - 03:59 .


#127
AngryFrozenWater

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David Gaider wrote...

Abriael_CG wrote...
You simply don't get expressions like the one below in ME2, with many layers of complexity and that perfectly show conflifting feelings

Quite a feat, apparently, since we borrowed their system for our facial expressions.

Nice one. ;)

#128
Guest_imported_beer_*

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David Gaider wrote...

Quite a feat, apparently, since we borrowed their system for our facial expressions.


Khaaaaaaaaan!!!!!

#129
flem1

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Abriael_CG wrote...

flem1 wrote...
Oh NOW you're thinking about streamlined gameplay?


There's a very big difference between making small concessions to gameplay and dumbing down whole mechanics.

No, no there isn't.

"Dumbed down" means "simplified more than *I* like it", nothing more.  It's a useless pejorative that just reflects poorly on those who use it.  Worse, people slinging this insult tend to be most attached to those elements that make no sense except other games have done it before.

#130
n2nw

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imported_beer wrote...

relhart wrote...


Maybe it's being born with a penis that began my life long love affair with fiddling with things,


That is the case?

I wonder what would explain MY life long affair with fiddling with things. I should borrow one to have a reason I can just whip out and show to people if I see fit.

I'm pretty sure that could get you arrested.

While we're on the subject of personalized armor.....

I'm SO jealous that I don't get my own.  It IS *my* story, after all.  I want the sexiest armor and I want it to be a one copy original.  While I'm at it, I want 5 different hairstyles for my PC only.

And love-monkey outfits for the romanceable males.

WHAT??  You know you want them too.

#131
Abriael_CG

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flem1 wrote...
No, no there isn't.

"Dumbed down" means "simplified more than *I* like it", nothing more.  It's a useless pejorative that just reflects poorly on those who use it.  Worse, people slinging this insult tend to be most attached to those elements that make no sense except other games have done it before.


Making a small concessions to gameplay -> Removing elements of limited scope that would not add ad all to the depth of the story/game and that, on the contrary, would be boring and cumbersome for most players, not to mention cause serious gameplay issues. IE: not forcing you to bring every piece of armor you want to swap to a blacksmith, that would require you to go back to a city every time you want to change one piece of armor and would create inventory overcrowding issues

Dumbing down -> Removing large chunks of gameplay that work very well and don't cause problems in order to spare time, resources or to make the game more appealing to the fans of different genres.

yes, I would say there's a quite sizeable difference.

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 11 février 2010 - 04:00 .


#132
tmelange

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Abriael_CG wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
Quite a feat, apparently, since we borrowed their system for our facial expressions.


But you didn't borrow the models it seems (thankfully), given that the same system gives very different results. The most evident result is that in DA:O human eyes point both on the same direction, in many cases in ME and ME2 they don't.

The use of the same system doesn't necessarily lead to the same results. If it did, i wouldn't be such an happy camper. Expressions have been one on the weakest points on humans since mass effect 1 and the problem returned in ME2, while they're one of the strongest points in DA:O.

Better implementation? better compatibility with the 3D models? Simply more attention and fine tuning? I wouldn't know. What i know is that the difference in results (and in characterization) is pretty evident.

So yeah, quite a feat, my congratulations to the ones that pulled it ^_^


One of the first things that threw me out of my ME2 experience in my first playthrough was the crazy, cross-eyed Jacob expressions, then the male Shepard's weird lecherous expressions and the way that the voices, eye movements and expressions would fall out of sync on occasion. However, being familiar with all of this from ME1, I simply considered it a quirk of the ME franchise. lol

I find it quite disturbing that the DAO modeling was based on the ME modeling because the results are so drastically different. I mean, simply watch Jacob. Surely, that couldn't have been on purpose.

#133
Abriael_CG

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tmelange wrote...
One of the first things that threw me out of my ME2 experience in my first playthrough was the crazy, cross-eyed Jacob expressions, then the male Shepard's weird lecherous expressions and the way that the voices, eye movements and expressions would fall out of sync on occasion. However, being familiar with all of this from ME1, I simply considered it a quirk of the ME franchise. lol

I find it quite disturbing that the DAO modeling was based on the ME modeling because the results are so drastically different. I mean, simply watch Jacob. Surely, that couldn't have been on purpose.


I'm seriously glad that I'm not the only one that sees that. I guess it all boils down on how a tool is used. Sure, I use the same word processor as Tom Clancy, but the fact I'm not a millionaire means I'm not as good as he is in the usage of the tool.

#134
SurfaceBeneath

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Abriael_CG wrote...
Dumbing down -> Removing large chunks of gameplay that work very well and don't cause problems in order to spare time, resources or to make the game more appealing to the fans of different genres.

yes, I would say there's a quite sizeable difference.


Everything that was removed from Mass Effect 1 made Mass Effect 2 a smarter and more fun game.

"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.”Image IPB Leonardo da Vinci

There isn't a single aspect of ME1 that was smarter than ME2. Gear requires choice now isntead of just picking the best of what you have, combat requires that you actually use tactics and cover instead of activate immunity / chain cast CCs and run around like Rambo, and characters are much more nuanced and interesting than in the first.

David Gaider wrote...

Quite a feat, apparently, since we borrowed their system for our facial expressions.


It's rare to see someone involved with the development of the game own someone so hard. I wish it happened more often.

No, the facial animations for Mass Effect 2 where much better than in Dragon Age.

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 11 février 2010 - 04:17 .


#135
Onyx Jaguar

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SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Abriael_CG wrote...
Dumbing down -> Removing large chunks of gameplay that work very well and don't cause problems in order to spare time, resources or to make the game more appealing to the fans of different genres.

yes, I would say there's a quite sizeable difference.


Everything that was removed from Mass Effect 1 made Mass Effect 2 a smarter and more fun game.

"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.”Image IPB Leonardo da Vinci

There isn't a single aspect of ME1 that was smarter than ME2. Gear requires choice now isntead of just picking the best of what you have, combat requires that you actually use tactics and cover instead of activate immunity / chain cast CCs and run around like Rambo, and characters are much more nuanced and interesting than in the first.

David Gaider wrote...

Quite a feat, apparently, since we borrowed their system for our facial expressions.


It's rare to see someone involved with the development of the game own someone so hard. I wish it happened more often.

No, the facial animations for Mass Effect 2 where much better than in Dragon Age.


Tell you the truth I thought so to.  This is making me want to do a comparison. 

#136
tmelange

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Abriael_CG wrote...

tmelange wrote...
One of the first things that threw me out of my ME2 experience in my first playthrough was the crazy, cross-eyed Jacob expressions, then the male Shepard's weird lecherous expressions and the way that the voices, eye movements and expressions would fall out of sync on occasion. However, being familiar with all of this from ME1, I simply considered it a quirk of the ME franchise. lol

I find it quite disturbing that the DAO modeling was based on the ME modeling because the results are so drastically different. I mean, simply watch Jacob. Surely, that couldn't have been on purpose.


I'm seriously glad that I'm not the only one that sees that. I guess it all boils down on how a tool is used. Sure, I use the same word processor as Tom Clancy, but the fact I'm not a millionaire means I'm not as good as he is in the usage of the tool.


I thought the detail in the artwork of the characters at rest in ME2 looked great, e.g. Shep et al looked really life-like in detail and clarity, but I completely agree with your round-up of the actual number of expressions, matched to dialogue. Quite a bit of it was creepy/cringe-worthy. I though DAO, excepting that the character representations were not as life-like, has a wide range of expressions matched very well to the dialogue, making the character scenes much more impactful. :shrug: I don't know anything about game dev to know why this would be the case if one system was based on another, but...Jacob. lol Can't tell me he doesn't look crazy.

#137
Abriael_CG

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SurfaceBeneath wrote...
Everything that was removed from Mass Effect 1 made Mass Effect 2 a smarter and more fun game.

"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.”Image IPB Leonardo da Vinci


Sure, let's all play tic tac toe then, instead of Dragon Age or Mass Effect. Few games are more simple than that.

There isn't a single aspect of ME1 that was smarter than ME2. Gear requires choice now isntead of just picking the best of what you have, combat requires that you actually use tactics and cover instead of activate immunity / chain cast CCs and run around like Rambo, and characters are much more nuanced and interesting than in the first.


You had several options in ME1, and it definitely didn't boil down picking "the best" (in ME2 simply you don't have options at all, between all the weapons you're given of the same kind most suck and one is decent). You could decide between armor that shielded against biotic powers or guns, more shields or more protection from direct damage. Weapons were a tradeoff as well you could chose more precise weapons, or weapons that dealt more damage, different degrees of overheating...
There was no clear "better" weapon until the very endgame, expecially paired with the skills of characters.

So yeah, the system in ME1 was much deeper and added several layers of enjoyment to teh gameplay. The only thing that made it cumbersome was the fact that enemies dropped way too many items and that you couldn't access the inventory of off-squad companions unless you went through the whoel ship, time consuming elevator scene included.

As for the characters being more detailed (not a great feat, given that  if you excluded wrex, most characters from ME1 were extremely flat and dull), that's definitely not thanks to them wearing the same clothes all the time. That's, if any, a quite big step back.

It's rare to see someone involved with the development of the game own someone so hard. I wish it happened more often.


I'm afraid I'm not the only one that noticed the extremely different results as the poster above clearly demonstrated. Using the same tools definitely doesn't always lead to the same result. The difference in expressiveness between Mass Effect 2 and DA:O is one of such cases.
There's very little "ownage" in pointing out that two designers both use photoshop.

No, the facial animations for Mass Effect 2 where much better than in Dragon Age.


"better" is normally not an equivalent of "evidently cross-eyed".
No, not really.

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 11 février 2010 - 04:35 .


#138
tmelange

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SurfaceBeneath wrote...

There isn't a single aspect of ME1 that was smarter than ME2. Gear requires choice now isntead of just picking the best of what you have, combat requires that you actually use tactics and cover instead of activate immunity / chain cast CCs and run around like Rambo, and characters are much more nuanced and interesting than in the first.


Hmm, IMHO, I think there is at least one area of ME1 that was smarter than ME2: in ME1 you were able to compare stats of your weapons. I don't think it's a smarter improvement to eliminate the ability for players to assess weapon damage and to replace it with a system that basically says "good on armor, not on biotic shields" etc. and simply encourages a player to "Use the weapon. If it kills enough things the way you like, keep using it!" I think that's taking simplicity to an extreme that could easily be considered "dumbed down". But that's my opinion, and an estimation of dumbing down, of course, is completely subjective and somewhat dependent on the level of intelligence of the person being affected.

Modifié par tmelange, 11 février 2010 - 04:39 .


#139
SurfaceBeneath

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Abriael_CG wrote...

You had several options in ME1, and it definitely didn't boil down picking "the best" (in ME2 simply you don't have options at all, between all the weapons you're given of the same kind most suck and one is decent). You could decide between armor that shielded against biotic powers or guns, more shields or more protection from direct damage. Weapons were a tradeoff as well you could chose more precise weapons, or weapons that dealt more damage, different degrees of overheating...
There was no clear "better" weapon until the very endgame, expecially paired with the skills of characters.


Armor was useless in ME1. I played insanity with both Liara and Tali permenantly in my party, never upgraded Tali's armor once the entire game (I fought Saren at the end in her Hydra I) while Liara was upgraded constantly and I found no noticible difference in the survivability of either character. Meanwhile, the choice between weapons in ME1 was essentially higher damage or better cooling, all of which became redundant when you bought your first Specter weapon after your second mission and literally from that point on could omni-gel every weapon you got as well as every ammo type you had (save for a single shredder and tungsten round of the highest quality) without taking a second look at them. All it cost you was a ridiculous amount of time. Attach a heat reducer to that weapon and level up your passives and you could never take your finger off the trigger and the thing would never overheat.

Mass Effect 1 didn't give you real choices. It gave you the illusion of choice. It was a superficial system that worked to the game's disadvantage by bogging down the action with pointless stat allocation. Mass Effect wasn't supposed to be the slow, plodding game that Dragon Age was. It was meant to be an amalgam of the Action and RPG genres in which both genres work together instead of get in each other's way. Any part of one of those two genres that hinders the other is a detriment to the game, including excessive inventory management.

I'm afraid I'm not the only one that noticed the extremely different results as the poster above clearly demonstrated. Using the same tools definitely doesn't always lead to the same result. The difference in expressiveness between Mass Effect 2 and DA:O is one of such cases.
There's very little "ownage" in pointing out that two designers both use photoshop.

"better" is normally not an equivalent of "evidently cross-eyed".
No, not really.


Read some critical published reviews of both Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2 and notice how almost every review of the latter comments on how amazing the facial modeling and execution of expressions is in the latter while the former gets very little mention of it. That's not to say that expressions were bad in Dragon Age (heck, when I broke Allistair's heart one game, I was legitimately saddened by the look on his face), but the Mass Effect 2 team had the upper hand in this department.

By the way, this is the opinion of someone who likes Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age both equally as very different, but VERY good games. They both do certain things better than the other.

PS: And before you question my genre preference, my two favorite games before ME2 and DA:O were Torment and BG2 respectively. Torment, which by the way, had next to no armor customization either, is greatly simplified from its traditional DnD ruleset, and yet is still the best computer roleplaying game of all time.

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 11 février 2010 - 04:49 .


#140
tmelange

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SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Read some critical published reviews of both Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2 and notice how almost every review of the latter comments on how amazing the facial modeling and execution of expressions is in the latter while the former gets very little mention of it. That's not to say that expressions were bad in Dragon Age (heck, when I broke Allistair's heart one game, I was legitimately saddened by the look on his face), but the Mass Effect 2 team had the upper hand in this department. 


I think the reviews of the modeling in ME2 are more a reflection of the fact that the modeling in ME2 is more life-like, and when the expressions match the dialogue, the high point is very high. However, I think the likely point being made on this forum is that when you remove the fact that ME2 has the more life-like models, and simply compare how well facial expressions for the type of model in play consistently match complex dialogue and the attendant expression of emotions, DAO clicked on all cylinders. ME2 had highs and very low lows (the wandering eyes), and the dialogue seemed to me to be generally less nuanced, especially with Shep who seemed to be most often regulated to short, declarative responses.

Modifié par tmelange, 11 février 2010 - 05:00 .


#141
Abriael_CG

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SurfaceBeneath wrote...
Armor was useless in ME1.


It was useless just because the difficulty was set too low and the enemy AI was abysmal (I still remember having to basically stand still in the open for several seconds after 20 minutes of survival mission in pinnacle tower in order to finally be defeated and progress in the game). A flaw that, mind you, hasn't been "solved" in ME2, they simply made every enemy "magically" get instant godly aim on your face as soon as you get out of cover, with totally artificial pauses in shooting to allow you to get some shots in, but the AI is still abysmal.

The fact that difficulty was set too low and the AI wasn't challenging at all has nothing to do with the validity of the armor system.

Spectre gear wasn't as common in the game until much later, and very often you got updated weapons of other kinds that outmatched your current spectre gear. Also, you didn't definitely have spectre gear to fully outfit the whole squad until the endgame. So yes, you're grossly oversimplifying and there were plenty meaningful equipment choices in ME1.

In ME2, instead, there isn't choice at all.

Read some critical published reviews of both Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2 and notice how almost every review of the latter comments on how amazing the facial modeling and execution of expressions is in the latter while the former gets very little mention of it. That's not to say that expressions were bad in Dragon Age (heck, when I broke Allistair's heart one game, I was legitimately saddened by the look on his face), but the Mass Effect 2 team had the upper hand in this department.


Oh please. The average gaming journalist doesn't even finish a game, and when they do, they rush through it like demons, rehashing press releases and just adding more words here and there.
This, of course, without even counting the psychological pressure of having to praise the hyped game (or worse).
If there's a source that doesn't retain any kind of credibility on a game's quality is "critical published reviews".
I still dreadfully remember the rolling mass of high scores slapped on Age of Conan, probably the worst failure in the MMORPG market in the last few years.
The Mass Effect 2 team didn't even manage to get the eyes of their human characters to point in the right direction, not to mention giving their characters a decently wide range of expressions. There's simply no comparison here.

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 11 février 2010 - 05:03 .


#142
CoS Sarah Jinstar

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Maria Caliban wrote...

Abriael_CG wrote...

Helekanalaith wrote...
Now why should you, as the player of the main character, have a say in what other companions should wear?


Going by the same reasoning, why should you have a say on the skills they have?


You shouldn't.


Why should you have a say on what they do?


You shouldn't.


So let's make companions 100% AI controlled, with completely automatic skilling up and absolutely zero imput from the player?


Yes.

In ME 1 and 2, I let the companions do what they wanted during the battle 90% of the time, and only took over when the AI struggled. The only reason the system in DA is acceptable is that there's no way the AI can handle the complexity of many of the fights. The player having to control the companions is a product of technical limitation.


That would be all well and good Maria if the AI in Bioware titles wasn't god awful to begin with. Sadly I keep waiting for it to improve to the point where I don't have to either babysit companions or watch the enemy bumrush over and over. Unfortunately we're still not there.

#143
Abriael_CG

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Let's not forget that one of the elements DA:O has over ME2 is the much higher replayability value. Guess what's one of the elements that contributes to replayability? You got it, it's called itemization and customization.

Going through a whole game with people wearing exactly the same armor and having exactly the same skills and specializations is already aggravating. Doing so multiple times is even worse.

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 11 février 2010 - 05:15 .


#144
SurfaceBeneath

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Abriael_CG wrote...

It was useless just because the difficulty was set too low and the enemy AI was abysmal (I still remember having to basically stand still in the open for several seconds after 20 minutes of survival mission in pinnacle tower in order to finally be defeated and progress in the game). A flaw that, mind you, hasn't been "solved" in ME2, they simply made every enemy "magically" get instant godly aim on your face as soon as you get out of cover, with totally artificial pauses in shooting to allow you to get some shots in, but the AI is still abysmal.

The fact that difficulty was set too low and the AI wasn't challenging at all has nothing to do with the validity of the armor system.

Spectre gear wasn't as common in the game until much later, and very often you got updated weapons of other kinds that outmatched your current spectre gear. Also, you didn't definitely have spectre gear to fully outfit the whole squad until the endgame. So yes, you're grossly oversimplifying and there were plenty meaningful equipment choices in ME1.

In ME2, instead, there isn't choice at all.


You basically just said that the gameplay in ME1 was bad and thus did not award armor choice in ME1 and then went back on yourself and said there was meaningful equipment choice. It doesn't matter what the statistics on the screen tell you, if your armor does not prove effectual in the battle, than it wasn't a real choice. And I got my Specter Sniper Rifle after doing Liara's recruitment and 4 side quests on my insanity run. At which point I actually wished that I could tell the game to -stop- picking up items besides Shredder and Tungsten rounds. Yes. That was a broken system.

In the end though, you're simply trying to argue that certain genre conventions are just inherently superior to others. It's a false statement, and moreso it's an arrogant statement. If you just came here and said you politely disagree with OP, no one would have batted an eyelash or jumped down your throat. Instead, you implicitely and overtly told them that they preferred a "dumb" type of game, insulting their intelligence directly. I'm guessing you don't have a lot of friends around here.

Oh please. The average gaming journalist doesn't even finish a game, and when they do, they rush through it like demons, rehashing press releases and just adding more words here and there.
This, of course, without even counting the psychological pressure of having to praise the hyped game (or worse).
If there's a source that doesn't retain any kind of credibility on a game's quality is "critical published reviews".
I still dreadfully remember the rolling mass of high scores slapped on Age of Conan, probably the worst failure in the MMORPG market in the last few years.
The Mass Effect 2 team didn't even manage to get the eyes of their human characters to point in the right direction, not to mention giving their characters a decently wide range of expressions. There's simply no comparison here.


Yes, obviously there is a giant conspiracy among gaming journalists to universally agree that certain major releases are good, while others get middling scores and are panned even when released by similarly high profile publishers.

Game journalists are just gamers same as you and I. They get paid to play the game and try to give an objective viewpoint of it. They get paid on the quality of the reviews they put out, which requires they play it to completion. You might disagree with the general consensus of those reviews, but that just simply shows you have certain preferences which are not as accepted among the mainstream. Meanwhile, the people I see around these boards saying ME2 is bad either A.) Simply hate shooters on principle alone and just consider them a stupid type of game, or B.) Really really really like Liara. Neither of which allows them to maintain any degree of professional objectivity towards the product.

#145
SurfaceBeneath

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Abriael_CG wrote...

Let's not forget that one of the elements DA:O has over ME2 is the much higher replayability value. Guess what's one of the elements that contributes to replayability? You got it, it's called itemization and customization.



In Your Opinion.

Personally I have replayed ME2 more than DA:O so far, simply because I enjoyed the combat and variety of classes and playstyles that ME2 offers. I'm coming back to DA:O now due to the modding community, but that doesn't inherently make either game more replayable than the other.


#146
tmelange

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Abriael_CG wrote...

Let's not forget that one of the elements DA:O has over ME2 is the much higher replayability value. Guess what's one of the elements that contributes to replayability? You got it, it's called itemization and customization.

Going through a whole game with people wearing exactly the same armor and having exactly the same skills and specializations is already aggravating. Doing so multiple times is even worse.


For me, the issue is not so much customization for the sake of customization. I don't necessarily mind per se that NPCs have their own gear and look that is not changeable. What I dislike is this: there are two parts to a battle -- offense and defense. In ME2, the way the NPC gear system was implemented, the player had no ability to affect the defensive posture of the team prior to battle. Defense, as represented by equipped gear or shields, was taken entirely out of the mix, so you had a NPC such as Jack going into a high grade, military level gun battle in no shirt. Now, I guess you can assume that she's biotic and has some sort of biotic shield, but it's a bit jarring to watch her aggressive fighting tactics and realize that there is no remotely logical connection between what she's wearing and her ability to face down that Krogan at short range. You have no notion of how much damage she can take, so it also detrimentally impacts your ability to deploy your team properly.

In DAO, you had Morrigan, a character that had both a unique look and gear that had defensive stats appropriate for her character class, and you still had the option to change her look to suit your battle plan. In ME2, though the look of some of the characters was bad-ass and enjoyable as such, the scenario failed in the implementation of an offensive/defensive stance for battle that had some rational basis. :shrug: As a player, I was left feeling; Cool esthetically, but dumbed down in intelligence and practicality.

#147
CoS Sarah Jinstar

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Maria Caliban wrote...

The ability to control companions is there because too many people conflate RPGs with wargames. I've played PnP for years now, and the only time I got to control my companion's actions was when someone couldn't make it to the group or I'd gotten enough successes on my Dominate roll.

There’s nothing wrong with enjoying party-based combat, but it’s antithetical to role-playing. The less direct control I have over my party members, the better. That's why I liked the approval system in Dragon Age; it reminded you that your companions were not mindless drones but characters with their own thoughts and opinions.


DA:O was designed to be a spiritual sucessor to Baldur's Gate/BG2. Which of course are party based CRPG's. Pen & Paper table top RPGs =! Computer RPG's.  You're comparing apples to oranges and crossing genres between a 3rd person shooter with a traditional CRPG. Which doesn't really make much sense to begin with.

If you want to play something like fallout or elderscrolls, play those titles, where you're just one person. Asking Bioware to esentially dumb down Dragon Age's components just because you perfer ME2's way of doing things, and expecting it to not ruffle a few feathers of the part of the community that enjoys DA for those very reasons of it being party based with many skill trees and tactical decisions with its combat, and having vast choices in gear shouldn't be all that suprising. 

Theres way to much of that sort of thing going on in the industry now as it is, especially with the vast catering to the console crowd since thats where the money is now.

#148
Abriael_CG

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SurfaceBeneath wrote...
You basically just said that the gameplay in ME1 was bad and thus did not award armor choice in ME1 and then went back on yourself and said there was meaningful equipment choice.


Actually I simply said that the armor and weapon system per se was very meaningful. The only thing that made it less meaningful was the fact that difficulty was badly set.
The problem was in the abysmal AI and in the overly easy difficulty, not in the armor and weapon system, that had a few (very easy to solve with a lower drop rater and a better inventory management) flaws, but did add several layers of depth to the game. The fact that ANOTHER flaw made inventory management less meaningful doesn't make it meaningless per-se.

Istead of solving the actual flaw (bad enemy AI), Bioware simply took the easy way out, removing the entire inventory system, keeping the bad enemy AI.

Yes, obviously there is a giant conspiracy among gaming journalists to universally agree that certain major releases are good, while others get middling scores and are panned even when released by similarly high profile publishers.


Try to work as a gaming journalist for a while. You'll be amazed by how unprofessionally that job is done in average, by the complex web of favors and credits that goes on under the table, by how journalists are often given minimal scores to give to selected games and encouraged to be "nice" to certain publishers, and several other niceties that would probably surprise you (they actually happen in several fields of journalism, not just in the gaming one, but the gaming field is often worse because professionalism is less widespread and most jorunalists are self-thaught)

By the way. I don't think that ME2 is "bad". I liked the game, even if it has several glaring flaws, one of which the lack of any meaningful itemization and visual variation. That's not enough to make the game "less than good", but this doesn't mean it couldn't have been much better if they simply didn't rip away big parts of what made the game an RPG disguising what's simply cutting corners as "streamlining".

I also don't hate shooters. I like some of them, expecially when they have a decent story (like the first Modern Warfare). The fact I don't hate shooters doesn't mean that i don't know that there are already plenty shooters and action games in the market, while there are too few good RPGs. So yeah, i can't welcome the disappearence of a genre in a favor of another that's already overrepresented.

As for replayability, while you can personally like the game more or less (and as such the replayability value can fluctuate for you), there are objective factors to it. One of such factors is variation. Cosmetic and skill variation is part of that value.

While Mass Effect 2 has only 2 paralel paths and absolutely no cosmetic/skill variation besides the main character's class and him being male/female, DA:O has a strongly branching development, with a much higher degree of variation, and variation in skills and itemization for the party is objectively part of that value. An element that ME2 lacks.


tmelange wrote...
In DAO, you had Morrigan, a character that had both a unique look and gear that had defensive stats appropriate
for her character class, and you still had the option to change her look to suit your battle plan. In ME2, though the look of some of the characters was bad-ass and enjoyable as such, the scenario failed in the implementation of an offensive/defensive stance for battle that had some rational basis. :shrug: As a player, I was left feeling; Cool
esthetically, but dumbed down in intelligence and practicality.


This is definitely a sound argument. I'm most favorable to characters having ONE (or a few) iconic outfit that makes their look unique. But they should also be able to wear a whole variety of armor if the situation warrants it or if the player so wishes. Best of both worlds. ME2 was excessively limiting and had no viable alternatives, and that's my very definition of "dumbed down".

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 11 février 2010 - 05:47 .


#149
corebit

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Abriael_CG wrote...

Let's not forget that one of the elements DA:O has over ME2 is the much higher replayability value. Guess what's one of the elements that contributes to replayability? You got it, it's called itemization and customization.

Going through a whole game with people wearing exactly the same armor and having exactly the same skills and specializations is already aggravating. Doing so multiple times is even worse.


I agree with many of your points. Like I said before, set models only look good the first time, and game reviews rarely focus on the replayability aspect (most of the reviewers rush through the content and only do it once). Whether or not ME2 is critically acclaimed has little to do with its replayability, which I find severely lacking as opposed to DA and ME1.

Just like my own characters, I want to make my companions look unique. I don't want them to look the same companions that every other Joe has out there. It makes the whole party experience much more personal, and customization is key to this.

I am already on my fourh DA replay, and on my sixth ME1 replay. After completing ME2 once however, I find little incentive to start a new playthrough. Can someone explain to me why is this? FYI I never rush through any Bioware game. I got the side quest achievement on my first DA playthrough, same with ME1.

#150
tmelange

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corebit wrote...

I am already on my fourh DA replay, and on my sixth ME1 replay. After completing ME2 once however, I find little incentive to start a new playthrough. Can someone explain to me why is this? FYI I never rush through any Bioware game. I got the side quest achievement on my first DA playthrough, same with ME1.


I found I had the same problem with ME2 after my first playthrough: no motivation to play it again. I attributed it to the fact that I played as a paragon and did every loyalty mission and saved everyone on my first playthrough. There is no motivation for me to play again just to see how many of my team I could lose by not doing loyalty missions or by making poor choices. Then, too, I was uninterested in the romance options and found that those options, in any case, were so divorced from the plot that I could run through all three and kelly in rapid succession after the suicide mission with no adverse affects -- and I did that. Afterwards...there wasn't much left to do to play again. I did import a female Shep to play renegade, but my playthrough is desultory. Conversely, I've played DAO at least 8 times through and for more than a solid month straight.

Modifié par tmelange, 11 février 2010 - 06:00 .