100 réponses à ce sujet

[Soruyao]

tmontana1093 wrote...

...and how does that solve the problem of the rest of the skills being completely gimped? Throw was put in the game to begin with so I can get some **** out of my face with a shotgun. Now there are hardly any times that I can, or need to use the skill.

So you never have a shotgun guy get in your face after his shield is down?   You never have the ability to make one of your team rip his armor/shields off so you can throw him?   You're never in a place where you can pull someone off a cliff and effectively oneshot them without wasting ammunition or being stuck in the GCD for a long time?

Maybe the problem is you're missing opportunities where throw and lift would have been useful because you're so stuck in a rut where warp is the solution to every problem.  Is that a possibility at all?

[Ahglock]

tmontana1093 wrote...

...and how does that solve the problem of the rest of the skills being completely gimped? Throw was put in the game to begin with so I can get some **** out of my face with a shotgun. Now there are hardly any times that I can, or need to use the skill.

Now that skill is singualrity..  Really the adepts power list could be just singualrity and warp and you would be fine.  The rest of the skills are there just for a change of pace.   Sure pull is slightly quciker than singualirty, and throw is a heck of a lot quicker than warp, but throw frequently does jack all for damage even when its a heavy throw so its use is more limited IMO.  

But singualrity will hold them for a couple seconds, I actually think it functions how every biotic should function vs shields/armor etc.  It works but not nearly as well.

And yes I have found this boring in comparison to ME1 biotics, it isn't challenging just repetative. 

[DanPman0317]

Warp and Reave or Warp and Warp Ammo are the only viable way to advance though any mission without killing yourself in insanity.

[tetracycloide]

Soruyao wrote...
You're never in a place where you can pull someone off a cliff and effectively oneshot them without wasting ammunition or being stuck in the GCD for a long time?

No.  Never.  Not on insanity.  Throw is useless.  Throw field inferior to biotic detonate.  Completely useless.

[Ahglock]

Soruyao wrote...

tmontana1093 wrote...

...and how does that solve the problem of the rest of the skills being completely gimped? Throw was put in the game to begin with so I can get some **** out of my face with a shotgun. Now there are hardly any times that I can, or need to use the skill.

So you never have a shotgun guy get in your face after his shield is down?   You never have the ability to make one of your team rip his armor/shields off so you can throw him?   You're never in a place where you can pull someone off a cliff and effectively oneshot them without wasting ammunition or being stuck in the GCD for a long time?

Maybe the problem is you're missing opportunities where throw and lift would have been useful because you're so stuck in a rut where warp is the solution to every problem.  Is that a possibility at all?

I don't think the issue is that it never happens but that it happens to infrequently to be considered really useful.  I go out of my way to use pull, throw and singularity instead of warp.  This keeps it somewhat entertaining, but I should not have to work to get a game have fun gameplay.  As I said previously, I think singualrity is a good model for how the biotics should interact with shields, reduce there effectiveness, don't stop them cold with a smidge of damage and at most a stagger. 

[Ahglock]

DanPman0317 wrote...

Warp and Reave or Warp and Warp Ammo are the only viable way to advance though any mission without killing yourself in insanity.

Not true at all.  While I use warp, I have gone through quite a few missions without it on insanity.  It is slower and I need shield/armor defeating teammates but it is doable.  My SMG handles sheilds just fine, HP for the armor.  Thing is the time I spend taking down shields with a gun I can just duplicate and take care of the health.  But for fun you throw singualrity, pull etc, and then use throw to see them sail into the sky.  It is totally viable, just not optimal. 

[Soruyao]

Ahglock wrote...

Now that skill is singualrity..  Really the adepts power list could be just singualrity and warp and you would be fine.  The rest of the skills are there just for a change of pace.   Sure pull is slightly quciker than singualirty, and throw is a heck of a lot quicker than warp, but throw frequently does jack all for damage even when its a heavy throw so its use is more limited IMO.  

But singualrity will hold them for a couple seconds, I actually think it functions how every biotic should function vs shields/armor etc.  It works but not nearly as well.

And yes I have found this boring in comparison to ME1 biotics, it isn't challenging just repetative. 

Bolded is exactly why the other abilities are useful.   Also keep in mind they have different projectile speeds and curve rates, and so different biotics are useful in hitting people in different types of cover.

Heavy throw rarely doesn't kill people for me, and when it doesn't, they are usually either behind my cover and die instantly to my allies, or they're by their allies, in which case they usually get killed by walking into a singularity, or taking another throw to the face.  (Or they just keel over from my allies crossfire.)

Heavy throw is also the best way to insta-kill people on any outdoor maps, and on indoor maps it does pretty decent damage.   I love throwing geth at walls and having them turn into white paste. (Suprised the heck out of me when it first happened!)  On outdoor maps, it throws people so stupidly far that even if they don't die, they're going to have to walk for an hour to get back to you.  Heck, at one point I threw someone over a mountain in the distance.  He wasn't going to bother me again.   Sometimes I throw people upwards and they don't even come down! 

-edit-

tetracycloide wrote...
No.  Never.  Not on insanity.  Throw is useless.  Throw field inferior to biotic detonate.  Completely useless.

I respectfully disagree.  I have gotten a lot of use out of it.

-edit2-

tmontana1093 wrote...

No, it's really not. Playing on
insane I rarely ocame across these oppurtunities. I shouldn't have to
wait for the opportunity anyway - I should be able to imprvise. You can
hardly ever improvise with non-warp skills.

Maybe I just suck at tactics, but it happened to me a lot.  Especially on tali's loyalty mission with those camo shotgun guys.   Throw saved my life multiple times on that mission alone.

Modifié par Soruyao, 11 février 2010 - 04:42 .

[tmontana1093]

Soruyao wrote...

tmontana1093 wrote...

...and how does that solve the problem of the rest of the skills being completely gimped? Throw was put in the game to begin with so I can get some **** out of my face with a shotgun. Now there are hardly any times that I can, or need to use the skill.

So you never have a shotgun guy get in your face after his shield is down?   You never have the ability to make one of your team rip his armor/shields off so you can throw him?   You're never in a place where you can pull someone off a cliff and effectively oneshot them without wasting ammunition or being stuck in the GCD for a long time?

Maybe the problem is you're missing opportunities where throw and lift would have been useful because you're so stuck in a rut where warp is the solution to every problem.  Is that a possibility at all?

No, it's really not. Playing on insane I rarely ocame across these oppurtunities. I shouldn't have to wait for the opportunity anyway - I should be able to imprvise. You can hardly ever improvise with non-warp skills.

[tetracycloide]

Soruyao wrote...
Maybe I just suck at tactics, but it happened to me a lot.  Especially on tali's loyalty mission with those camo shotgun guys.   Throw saved my life multiple times on that mission alone.

Geth destroyers have shields.  One overload insufficient.  Melee range, shields up?  Adept hosed.  Singularity may save.  Throw never will.

Playing insanity?  Positive?

Using throw does not make it useful.  Cannot be stressed enough.  Can use machine pistol too.  Still not 'useful.'  One foe alone?  Why use powers.  Two foes?  Detonate.

Modifié par tetracycloide, 11 février 2010 - 05:30 .

[Ahglock]

Soruyao wrote...

[
Bolded is exactly why the other abilities are useful.   Also keep in mind they have different projectile speeds and curve rates, and so different biotics are useful in hitting people in different types of cover.

Heavy throw rarely doesn't kill people for me, and when it doesn't, they are usually either behind my cover and die instantly to my allies, or they're by their allies, in which case they usually get killed by walking into a singularity, or taking another throw to the face.  (Or they just keel over from my allies crossfire.)

Heavy throw is also the best way to insta-kill people on any outdoor maps, and on indoor maps it does pretty decent damage.   I love throwing geth at walls and having them turn into white paste. (Suprised the heck out of me when it first happened!)  On outdoor maps, it throws people so stupidly far that even if they don't die, they're going to have to walk for an hour to get back to you.  Heck, at one point I threw someone over a mountain in the distance.  He wasn't going to bother me again.   Sometimes I throw people upwards and they don't even come down! 

3 seconds for pull and throw, 4.5 seconds for singularity.  After mods and nemesis its less 1 second in difference.  Can there be a point where I feel they would be better than singualrity, yes.  Is it so rare that the points feel like a waste, also yes.

Maybe I suck at using it, but heavy throw always does less damage than a warp for me.  Sure sometimes it insta kills but not often enough.  I prefer the reliable and consistent damage from warp.  As for the different curve rates again this is where singualrity shines, with a wide singualrity hitting the voer is good enough. 

[Soruyao]

tetracycloide wrote...

Soruyao wrote...
Maybe I just suck at tactics, but it happened to me a lot.  Especially on tali's loyalty mission with those camo shotgun guys.   Throw saved my life multiple times on that mission alone.

Geth destroyers have shields.  One overload insufficient.  Melee range, shields up?  Adept hosed.  Singularity may save.  Throw never will.

Playing insanity?  Positive?

Using throw does not make it useful.  Cannot be stressed enough.  Can use machine pistol too.  Still not 'useful.'  One foe alone?  Why use powers.  Two foes?  Detonate.

I am indeed playing on insanity.    One overload might not be sufficient if the enemy got to me with full health, but it can bring an enemy down low enough to where a quick burst from a geth rifle is more than enough to finish the shields off.  Then throw saves.

Singularity has a .5-.7ish or so second delay between when it hits a target and when it starts the stun.     It's why I died in the adept video I uploaded.   The throw projectile both moves faster and takes effect the moment it connects.   Stunning a shielded enemy with throw, even for a moment, might give you time to get squad powers into effect or finish off their shields enough for the next throw to knock them down.

Throw has indeed saved my life several times.     Does it share a role with singularity in a decent amount of situations? Sure, but to say it's completely useless is patently untrue.

-edit-

Ahglock wrote...
3 seconds for pull and throw, 4.5 seconds
for singularity.  After mods and nemesis its less 1 second in
difference.  Can there be a point where I feel they would be better
than singualrity, yes.  Is it so rare that the points feel like a
waste, also yes.

Maybe I suck at using it, but heavy throw
always does less damage than a warp for me.  Sure sometimes it insta
kills but not often enough.  I prefer the reliable and consistent
damage from warp.  As for the different curve rates again this is where
singualrity shines, with a wide singualrity hitting the voer is good
enough. 

Even if heavy throw did half the damage
warp did, it would instantly stop any incoming damage from that enemy,
possibly saving your life.  If you warp an enemy thats near you and it doesn't die, you're screwed.

It's harder to use throw effectively, I'll give you that.  That's why everyone falls into the warp spamming rut.  But
it's not fun and everyone complains that they have to do it, so why do
it if a strategy that ignores it completely is perfectly viable?

Is that 5-10% (If that! I'm suspicious there even is a difference at all except against bosses) faster you just got through a level really worth the fact that you're using a strategy that sucked all of the fun out of the game for you?   (Its fine to use warp spam if you enjoy it, but if it's not fun and the fun alternative is viable, then why on earth wouldn't you do it?)

-edit2-

I have a question for both of you.   How comparatively effective does a strategy have to be, percentage wise (for mission clear speed, safety, raw power), for you to use it instead of a strategy that is fun?   Does it have to be twice as effective?   1.5 times?    1.2 times?   When do you kill the fun of the game for pointless min maxing if you can complete the game just fine both ways without struggling?

Modifié par Soruyao, 11 février 2010 - 05:45 .

[Ahglock]

tetracycloide wrote...

Soruyao wrote...
Maybe I just suck at tactics, but it happened to me a lot.  Especially on tali's loyalty mission with those camo shotgun guys.   Throw saved my life multiple times on that mission alone.

Geth destroyers have shields.  One overload insufficient.  Melee range, shields up?  Adept hosed.  Singularity may save.  Throw never will.

Playing insanity?  Positive?

Using throw does not make it useful.  Cannot be stressed enough.  Can use machine pistol too.  Still not 'useful.'  One foe alone?  Why use powers.  Two foes?  Detonate.

In game I have had 1 yes 1 situation where throw was the better choice.  Multiple foes were surronding me and advancing fast.  I threw the ones to my right since there defenses were down and then thanks to the short cooldown I threw singualrity to stun the ones to my lefy giving me a chance to deal with there defenses and finish them off with an explosion. 

Other than that throw has primarily been the fun choice. 

[Soruyao]

Oh and one more thing! (making a new post because the first one was getting too long)

If you already have a singularity blocking enemies and some other enemies attack you, using the singularity against them would break the first singularity, since you can only have one at a time. However, you can lift and throw constantly without breaking the singularity.

This is why I usually start fights by putting a singularity up and then using other powers until it wears off, and then refresh it when it goes down.

-edit-  Moved edit to new post

Modifié par Soruyao, 11 février 2010 - 06:01 .

[tetracycloide]

Soruyao wrote...
I am indeed playing on insanity.    One overload might not be sufficient if the enemy got to me with full health, but it can bring an enemy down low enough to where a quick burst from a geth rifle is more than enough to finish the shields off.  Then throw saves.

Adept.  Tali's mission. No geth rifle.  No tempest.  Singularity equally effective.  Against shields more so.  Point five to point seven seconds difference of life or death.  Mistake made.  Improve play.

Use does not equal useful.

Modifié par tetracycloide, 11 février 2010 - 05:49 .

[Tony_Knightcrawler]

You can instant-kill a lifted enemy in many places. So lifting them off the ground even a little means they're already dead.

[newcomplex]

Personally, pull was my bread and butter skill, I never really used singularity.

Pull=Instant kill.

Insanity btw.   

L2 curve and detonate biotics plz.    

People who only use singularity are doing it wrong.    Its probably why their adept play sucks.  

In case you haven't noticed, I can cast almost three pulls in the time of a single singularity cooldown.    Or a pull and a warp and a pull.   

DanPman0317 wrote...

Warp and Reave or Warp and Warp Ammo
are the only viable way to advance though any mission without killing
yourself in insanity.

So wrong.

People simply are not playing adept right.    Dominate should be your special power hands down, not warp ammo.    Maxxing Dominate, Bastion, and Warp.    Warp+Dominate+Spam biotics while dominated gets aggro.    Biotics is amazing in this game, people just have no idea what they're doing.   

Dominate unsheilded enemies, lift if Dominates already up (16 sec with max upgrades, 4 second CD), warp if their are no unsheilded enemies.    Shockwave/Singularity as CC, and for hitting enemies in deep cover where you can't curve pull enough.    Push enemies off cliffs for luls.  

Modifié par newcomplex, 11 février 2010 - 05:57 .

[tetracycloide]

newcomplex wrote...

People who only use singularity are doing it wrong.    Its probably why their adept play sucks.  

Singularity stuns shielded/armored/barriered.  Pull does not.  Pull uses a subset of singularity uses.  Secondary at best.  Only highlight, shorter cooldown.

Modifié par tetracycloide, 11 février 2010 - 06:00 .

[Soruyao]

Sorry, pre-replying through edits is weird. I shouldn't do that. I'll put it here.

tetracycloide wrote...



Adept. Tali's mission. No geth

rifle. No tempest. Singularity equally effective. Against shields

more so. Point five to point seven seconds difference of life or

death. Mistake made. Improve play.



Use does not equal useful.

The idea that something that you can use isn't useful is a really strange semantic argument that I can't say I understand.



Main Entry: use·ful

Pronunciation: \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ˈyüs-fəl\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\Function: adjective Date: 1595

1 : capable of being put to use; especially : serviceable for an end or purpose

2 : of a valuable or productive kind — use·ful·ly \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\-fə-lē\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ adverb



If you can use something, it's useful.



And so you're saying that because I made a mistake and got rushed, it invalidates that throw would be a better choice to rescue me from that mistake? Is everyone who plays adepts perfect?

[tetracycloide]

Soruyao wrote...

Main Entry: use·ful
Pronunciation: \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ˈyüs-fəl\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\Function: adjective Date: 1595 1 : capable of being put to use; especially : serviceable for an end or purpose
2 : of a valuable or productive kind — use·ful·ly \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\-fə-lē\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ adverb If you can use something, it's useful.

Throw neither valuable nor productive. Not in +90% of cases. Replaceable in all cases. Never uniquely useful.  Can 'use' against shields.  Ineffective.  Not useful.  'Put to use' does not equal use.

Only useful in poor play? Not the strongest argument. Guess it works. Could also just play better.

Modifié par tetracycloide, 11 février 2010 - 06:03 .

[Soruyao]

tetracycloide wrote...

Throw neither valuable nor productive. Not in +90% of cases. Replaceable in all cases. Never uniquely useful.  Can 'use' against shields.  Ineffective.  Not useful.  'Put to use' does not equal use.

Only useful in poor play? Not the strongest argument. Guess it works. Could also just play better.

I disagree that it's only useful in poor play.

tetracycloide wrote...



Singularity stuns
shielded/armored/barriered.  Pull does not.  Pull uses a subset of
singularity uses.  Secondary at best.  Only highlight, shorter
cooldown.

The pull projectile moves faster, it takes effect instantly, you can use it on multiple enemies at once without breaking the first one, you can spam it to move an enemy to anywhere you want, you can control direction.   Are those enough highlights to differentiate it?

One thing you can do with pull that no other ability can do is that you can chain it to bring an enemy to you and just beat it down with your fists without having to worry about sticking your head out of cover anymore.    Is it the fastest way to kill an enemy? No, but it's by far the safest.

-edit-  Darn, I got confused and thought we were talking about pull to begin with.  Here's throw: 

Throw has the widest curve in the game, meaning you can hit enemies with it that couldnt be hit by any other projectile skill.  It has the fastest projectile and it comes into effect instantly.  It does a sizable damage boost and when combined with pull it can be an instant kill in almost every setting you fight in.

It devalues a little in close quarters indoors areas, (Of which there are few!) but the way it curves and it's speed and the fact that you can use it multiple times makes it still very much productive and valuable. (whereas you can only use singularity once at a time.)

Modifié par Soruyao, 11 février 2010 - 06:10 .

[tetracycloide]

Soruyao wrote...
Are those enough highlights to differentiate it?

Bluntly?  No.  Pull's redeeming quality, cooldown.  Throw and shockwave, less useful.  Nothing else to take.

Modifié par tetracycloide, 11 février 2010 - 06:09 .

[rumination888]

tetracycloide wrote...

Soruyao wrote...

Main Entry: use·ful
Pronunciation: \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ˈyüs-fəl\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\Function: adjective Date: 1595 1 : capable of being put to use; especially : serviceable for an end or purpose
2 : of a valuable or productive kind — use·ful·ly \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\-fə-lē\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ adverb If you can use something, it's useful.

Throw neither valuable nor productive. Not in +90% of cases. Replaceable in all cases. Never uniquely useful.  Can 'use' against shields.  Ineffective.  Not useful.  'Put to use' does not equal use.

Only useful in poor play? Not the strongest argument. Guess it works. Could also just play better.

Good thing you said +90% of cases!
When an enemy is next to a ledge, throwing them off is quick, saves ammo, and the cooldown is short.

But aside from that, and because skill points are limited, Throw is indeed useless.

[Soruyao]

tetracycloide wrote...

Soruyao wrote...
Are those enough highlights to differentiate it?

Bluntly?  No.  Pull's redeeming quality, cooldown.  Throw and shockwave, less useful.  Nothing else to take.

Honestly?  If you were right (which I still disagree with) and pull and throw were totally useless except for instakills, I would still always max it out.

C'mon, you can throw people over mountains, throw them into space, turn geth into white paste on a wall, and throw people into a ceiling so hard they get glitched in it and die.  ( This happens at 0:58 .  It didnt save my life, but what other skill can do what throw did here?)  What more could anyone ever possibly want?

Creating entertainment and a spectacle is a use too, and at least for me, throw succeeds at that on a regular basis.  So at least, even if it were a worse choice tactically, it would still be useful to me.

Modifié par Soruyao, 11 février 2010 - 06:19 .

[Ahglock]

Soruyao wrote...



I have a question for both of you.   How comparatively effective does a strategy have to be, percentage wise (for mission clear speed, safety, raw power), for you to use it instead of a strategy that is fun?   Does it have to be twice as effective?   1.5 times?    1.2 times?   When do you kill the fun of the game for pointless min maxing if you can complete the game just fine both ways without struggling?

I use pull and throw frequently.  I do find it more entertaining, so that is what I do.  I play games to have fun, not to beat them extra fast and effectively.  That doesn't mean I do not recognize there ineficiencies. 

As I said, the only real fix needed is to use the singulairy model and give partial effect for shielded/armoered foes.  If throw knocked down without throwing shieleded enemies, or threw them a short distance with 3-4 points in throw it would not be overpowered, if lift liftted them a short distance for a couple seconds it would not break the game.  Just stop it cold for bosses or any double protection target.

With this I would not have to force fun into the game by using less effective tactics.

[masterthehero]

In my opinion NPC's should only be immune to biotics if they are using a biotic shield. Once it's down to standard shields, all bets are off and everything should work on them.


Also I find shockwave to be awesome, throw it in a group of husks or units and watch the bodies fly!

Modifié par masterthehero, 11 février 2010 - 06:21 .