75 réponses à ce sujet

[wowolfhen]

ME1 Citadel was quite a good example of how big a planet's level should be. About randmly generated events, etc...it's not always the same. Gta can make do without any random stuff. It gives u a city, puts some mission givers and that's all. Mass effect could follow the same path..
SwiftSweeper, Betheda or Rockstar could easily make the same with Mass Effect universe

Modifié par wowolfhen, 10 février 2010 - 11:24 .

[SwiftSweeper]

banshee768 wrote...

Games like Oblivion, Morrowind, GTA and other with huge open worlds rely heavily on random contents. Random bandit/gang attacks, random spawned missions, random this and random that. Depending on the amount of planning going into the random events, this can be good and keep you emerged in the game world. Most of the time though, it's rubbish. Oblivion is the prime example here. Defeat the big bad boss of something and when you loot his chests find.. a broom and 3 forks (real story). Also, bandits scaled to your level to keep them challenging. Which meant that they ran around in some of the rarest armor towards the end. Which again broke the illusion.

When everything is done by hand (in the case of Mass Effect 2) everything fits together and the illusion is maintained. This, however, takes a lot of time, so the amount of places and/or the size of places are reduced as a consequence.

It's the classic quality vs. quantity. And BioWare went with quality.

Yeah, seeing bandits running in Daedric armor was pretty werid.  Fallout 3 addressed this issue though.  Mass Effect 2 has its own issues.  Everything feels so static in ME2.  For instance, there are always the same people hanging at ME2 shops.  They even have the same conversations when I come back to store.  It pretty illusion breacking to me I much preffer Oblivion/Fallout aproach where NPCs actually move around.

I am perplexed that Bioware did not use any locations from ME1 in ME2.  It would be easy to add some quests to Noveria, original Cidatel etc.  The assets are already created, so it would be relatively easy to do.  This would make the second ME much larger in scope.

Modifié par SwiftSweeper, 10 février 2010 - 11:42 .

[Sphaerus]

Said it in another thread that was this same complaint and I'll say it here where it's more germane.

Sandboxes are boring. They sound like a great idea, but they can not be made into something worth the time to make them. They are a boring, overused gimmicks that have no real way to give real complexity to a game. Sandboxes were awesome ten years ago when GTA III was fresh and amazing, now they are just boring and ironically predictable.

[wowolfhen]

Sphaerus wrote...

Sandboxes are boring. They sound like a great idea, but they can not be made into something worth the time to make them. They are a boring, overused gimmicks that have no real way to give real complexity to a game. Sandboxes were awesome ten years ago when GTA III was fresh and amazing, now they are just boring and ironically predictable.

Mate, it's not so true. Don't wanna mention the game again, but Gta 4 is one of the most well received games..

[Sphaerus]

wowolfhen wrote...

Sphaerus wrote...

Sandboxes are boring. They sound like a great idea, but they can not be made into something worth the time to make them. They are a boring, overused gimmicks that have no real way to give real complexity to a game. Sandboxes were awesome ten years ago when GTA III was fresh and amazing, now they are just boring and ironically predictable.

Mate, it's not so true. Don't wanna mention the game again, but Gta 4 is one of the most well received games..

Based on the story, not the gameplay.  GTAIV's story was excellent and actually a more serious, "adult" experience than the cartoony or over-the-top worlds of Vice City or San Andreas.  The gameplay was incredibly derivative.  Show me a reviewer who celebrated GTAIV for its innovative gameplay and I'll show you a reviewer who was paid off.

Doing the same thing as everyone else but "not awful" while supporting it with a strong, appealing story is not wholly an achievement, though it does say good things about the writing going on.

[OH-UP-THIS!]

Uh, YUP, me wants to go and steal a car, and tomorrow, i think i'll steal a car, and the next, maybe we could steal ....a car?

oooooooo...........exciting *nods off*

[Odd Hermit]

banshee768 wrote...

Games like Oblivion, Morrowind, GTA and other with huge open worlds rely heavily on random contents. Random bandit/gang attacks, random spawned missions, random this and random that. Depending on the amount of planning going into the random events, this can be good and keep you emerged in the game world. Most of the time though, it's rubbish. Oblivion is the prime example here. Defeat the big bad boss of something and when you loot his chests find.. a broom and 3 forks (real story). Also, bandits scaled to your level to keep them challenging. Which meant that they ran around in some of the rarest armor towards the end. Which again broke the illusion.

When everything is done by hand (in the case of Mass Effect 2) everything fits together and the illusion is maintained. This, however, takes a lot of time, so the amount of places and/or the size of places are reduced as a consequence.

It's the classic quality vs. quantity. And BioWare went with quality.

Morrowind was mainly hand placed content. A lot of it. Even if a lot of places were very similar, most had little details to make each one exciting - you never knew what you'd find(until you'd played it to death like many people did). It was a great game and it was quality and quantity. Not saying it was everything ME 2 is and more, because it wasn't, but it was an amazing game for it's time.
Oblivion was more copy/paste than Morrowind by far.

Modifié par Odd Hermit, 11 février 2010 - 12:14 .

[Edje Edgar]

If you like GTA or Oblivion, go play those games. I like Mass Effect an infinite amount more then those games, so I'll take it as it is.



Honestly why do people always think that because they like a certain format EVERY game should be like that. You're not the centre of the universe. I bet you made a thead that Dragon Age should be an MMO too. Take it for what it is or leave it. Do you go to a Toyota dealer to ask why their cars arent more like a Volvo?

[newcomplex]

Well, making it completely wide open would be stupid, but what bioware should focus on is the illusion of scope, not scope itself. For instance, the Citadel doesn't have to be big as GTA liberty city. But it should be designed in a way to look as big as GTA liberty city.

[sedrikhcain]

Ringo12 wrote...

wowolfhen wrote...

moteh, thanks for an extensive answer. But are Oblivion and Gta4 empty? I agree that Mass Effect 1 planets for exploration were seriously dull (only 1*1 square km of nothing). But such a big company Bioware could make an open world system. As a matter of fact, Space is supposed to be enormous!
P.s.I loved city videos on Illium with all those flying cars.Pity, these were just videos..

Yes they are empty. Both games are boring. I have Oblivion for one reason only and that is to mod to my hearts content

GTA4 is far from boring. I have Oblivion, finally, but haven't played it beyond the intro yet. The thing is extremely popular, though, so it seems that a lot of people don't think it's boring.


You are dealing with two different kinds of games. I think there area enough proponents of each style to say they both have pretty broad fanbases. Mass Effect deals with a very specific, Galaxy-encompassing conflict and isn't concerned with much beyond that -- save for a little exploration to appease folks who feel like there must be some in a space-set game, I guess. 

[Guanxii]

I'd personally much rather have one large-ish open-world expansion dlc like Point Lookout than lots of tiny cookie-cutter piecemeal items such as BDTS and Pinnacle Station that are probably coming down the pipeline to a cerberus terminal near you.

It would be so much more fun for exploring an open-world-enviroment with the hammerhead - I'd love to see the Turian or Salarian home-world at some point - there could be numerous little settlements and a large central hub like Illium. The main hub could have a large market the size of Zakeria ward full of new armors/weapons/upgrades, etc.

The best thing about a an open-world-enviroment expansion for ME2 would be the random auto-spawning enemy AI's so that you can continue to play ME2 after finishing all the main story and side-quests and dlcs without starting a new game+.

Modifié par Guanxii, 11 février 2010 - 12:53 .

[Shinji Ex]

Mass Effect 3 will take place on earth exclusively! so the game will be open ended like Fallout3! oh an spoiler alert! 

[sedrikhcain]

Sphaerus wrote...

wowolfhen wrote...

Sphaerus wrote...

Sandboxes are boring. They sound like a great idea, but they can not be made into something worth the time to make them. They are a boring, overused gimmicks that have no real way to give real complexity to a game. Sandboxes were awesome ten years ago when GTA III was fresh and amazing, now they are just boring and ironically predictable.

Mate, it's not so true. Don't wanna mention the game again, but Gta 4 is one of the most well received games..

Based on the story, not the gameplay.  GTAIV's story was excellent and actually a more serious, "adult" experience than the cartoony or over-the-top worlds of Vice City or San Andreas.  The gameplay was incredibly derivative.  Show me a reviewer who celebrated GTAIV for its innovative gameplay and I'll show you a reviewer who was paid off.

Doing the same thing as everyone else but "not awful" while supporting it with a strong, appealing story is not wholly an achievement, though it does say good things about the writing going on.

so games must be innovative or else they are boring?

[wowolfhen]

Guanxii wrote...

I'd personally much rather have one large-ish open-world expansion dlc like Point Lookout than lots of tiny cookie-cutter piecemeal items such as BDTS and Pinnacle Station that are probably coming down the pipeline to a cerberus terminal near you.

It would be so much more fun for exploring an open-world-enviroment with the hammerhead - I'd love to see the Turian or Salarian home-world at some point - there could be numerous little settlements and a large central hub like Illium. The main hub could have a large market the size of Zakeria ward full of new armors/weapons/upgrades, etc.

The best thing about a an open-world-enviroment expansion for ME2 would be the random auto-spawning enemy AI's so that you can continue to play ME2 after finishing all the main story and side-quests and dlcs without starting a new game+.

+1. In the end, Mass Effect universe has to do with space. Space is supposed to be space:)

[Sphaerus]

sedrikhcain wrote...

Sphaerus wrote...

wowolfhen wrote...

Sphaerus wrote...

Sandboxes are boring. They sound like a great idea, but they can not be made into something worth the time to make them. They are a boring, overused gimmicks that have no real way to give real complexity to a game. Sandboxes were awesome ten years ago when GTA III was fresh and amazing, now they are just boring and ironically predictable.

Mate, it's not so true. Don't wanna mention the game again, but Gta 4 is one of the most well received games..

Based on the story, not the gameplay.  GTAIV's story was excellent and actually a more serious, "adult" experience than the cartoony or over-the-top worlds of Vice City or San Andreas.  The gameplay was incredibly derivative.  Show me a reviewer who celebrated GTAIV for its innovative gameplay and I'll show you a reviewer who was paid off.

Doing the same thing as everyone else but "not awful" while supporting it with a strong, appealing story is not wholly an achievement, though it does say good things about the writing going on.

so games must be innovative or else they are boring?

In a word:  Yes.

Well, unless you're the sort who thinks the Halo series is on the same level of a series like Mass Effect.

[MonkeyLungs]

ohupthis wrote...

Uh, YUP, me wants to go and steal a car, and tomorrow, i think i'll steal a car, and the next, maybe we could steal ....a car?
oooooooo...........exciting *nods off*

 GTA4 has a great story with top notch voice acting and very well written dialogue. You can completely ignore everything but the story missions and embark on an expansive adventure through the recreated 5 borroughs.

[Taura-Tierno]

I like open world games. But I like games like Mass Effect, too. You couldn't possibly have an open world in ME, because the area it covers is too vast. If the game only took place on the Citadel, sure. If that was the case it would be much better with a large, open world, in my opinion. More places to explore, more detail, much more fun ... but if you want variety as well, having different levels is kind of the only option. Unless you make a really enourmous open world, but that seems like a waste.

[newcomplex]

Sphaerus wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

Sphaerus wrote...

wowolfhen wrote...

Sphaerus wrote...

Sandboxes are boring. They sound like a great idea, but they can not be made into something worth the time to make them. They are a boring, overused gimmicks that have no real way to give real complexity to a game. Sandboxes were awesome ten years ago when GTA III was fresh and amazing, now they are just boring and ironically predictable.

Mate, it's not so true. Don't wanna mention the game again, but Gta 4 is one of the most well received games..

Based on the story, not the gameplay.  GTAIV's story was excellent and actually a more serious, "adult" experience than the cartoony or over-the-top worlds of Vice City or San Andreas.  The gameplay was incredibly derivative.  Show me a reviewer who celebrated GTAIV for its innovative gameplay and I'll show you a reviewer who was paid off.

Doing the same thing as everyone else but "not awful" while supporting it with a strong, appealing story is not wholly an achievement, though it does say good things about the writing going on.

so games must be innovative or else they are boring?

In a word:  Yes.

Well, unless you're the sort who thinks the Halo series is on the same level of a series like Mass Effect.

Eh, Halo was relatively innovative by implementing mechanics that made the masses feel better, like autoregen, creating a overall more accessible shooter, as well as tempered movement and jump speeds, in a era where hard twitch shooters like Tribes, CS, UT and Quake were predominant, as well as creating a shooter whos comp metagame caters towards teamplay rather then individual skill.

That being said, I hate halo (but enjoy the four previous mentioned FPS's)

Modifié par newcomplex, 11 février 2010 - 05:20 .

[Darkmoone1]

Crawling_Chaos wrote...

wowolfhen wrote...

moteh, thanks for an extensive answer. But are Oblivion and Gta4 empty? I agree that Mass Effect 1 planets for exploration were seriously dull (only 1*1 square km of nothing). But such a big company Bioware could make an open world system. As a matter of fact, Space is supposed to be enormous!
P.s.I loved city videos on Illium with all those flying cars.Pity, these were just videos..

Yeah, for the most part Fallout 3 and GTA 4 are empty.

There are only small hubs that have any interesting content in those games.

Fix'd

[Chromie]

Sphaerus wrote...

Said it in another thread that was this same complaint and I'll say it here where it's more germane.
Sandboxes are boring. They sound like a great idea, but they can not be made into something worth the time to make them. They are a boring, overused gimmicks that have no real way to give real complexity to a game. Sandboxes were awesome ten years ago when GTA III was fresh and amazing, now they are just boring and ironically predictable.

GTA 4 though was SOOO overhyped and I think it the worst of all the GTA. I have never been a big fan but I did play San Andreas thourougly. San Andreas took alot of time and i enjoyed unlocking everything for the 100% completion.
Sandboxes are fun it just Oblivion wasn't varied enough. Oblivion is sill fun because it has a such a huge modding community which keep the game alive. Fallout 3 i think is alot better though the environment gets really boring really fast. Fallout 3 took the game from a fun rpg to more of a shooter sim.

If Bioware could make the locales like twice as big and have some elements from sandbox games i would be happy with that. I know it won't happen but still. Mass Effect would lose alot of its appeal if instead o having small environments with alot of detail and information was stripped away for the same generic looking building or area like in ME1.

[Stompi]

I really prefer the Bioware approach over Oblivion. I can't even remember the name of most Oblivion NPCs, but I want games that focus on the characters. The Mass Effect 1 mako planets were a great example how a open world game probably would look like. The same buildings over and over again.

Open world games can also be great, but that probably requires a much bigger effort to keep the game varied and interesting in every part of the game.

[phimseto]

I think you will see a ME open-world game eventually. I imagine it will be pretty good. You just won't see it in ME3. What ME2 lacked, though, was a few areas of greater depth (like the Citadel in ME1). Omega, Illium, Tuchanka, and the Citadel all could have stood to be at least one zone larger.

[wowolfhen]

There is not much to do after competing the game. U can still visit 4 planets and that's all. What can u do? Start a new game. But u can't play through the same stuff 10 times. (I completed the game 3  times, btw). But if it were a sandbox game....Personally, I enjoyed playing GTA 4. I didn't pass many missions. What I enjoyed was the opportunity to walk extensive distances. Because of this, the game prolonged itself for more than a month.

I guess the lack of no open world sandbox space games will eventually be noticed and some developer will use that idea. Something tells me it will be a hit.

Modifié par wowolfhen, 11 février 2010 - 08:19 .

[AtreiyaN7]

This is not a sandbox game. As much as I enjoyed Fallout 3, it was pretty empty in terms of good side quests and the story wasn't exactly tightly plotted. Whatever disagreements people have over the story in ME2, I thought it was solidly character-driven with an overarching storyline that was better integrated (not saying it was perfect) overall.