140 réponses à ce sujet

[Dethateer]

I'm getting really f**king sick of pointing out that the game initially DID have a hybrid system and that you can reenable it yourself...

[Sibbwolf]

Akimb0 wrote...

Amazing. I wasn't actually expecting a rational reply considering how people act on these forums.

I know. People allow things to become too charged too quickly. It's like watching BBC Parliament, honestly.

I think most people considered ME1 systems "broken" because they don't even understand how or why the weapons worked as they did. Of course, there were balance issues. However just because something isn't balanced, certainly doesn't mean it's broken.

Indeed. I'll keep using 'broken', but it's a very loose application.

The solution would have been reasonably simple imo:

1) Weapons have the 'heat level' as in ME1.

2) If this heat level is reached, there's either a 6 second cooldown (the longest cooldown was ~6 seconds in ME1 iirc) or you pop out a heatsink and replace. Instantly cooling the weapon, which takes 1-2 seconds as in ME2.

I'd lengthen the cooldown to ~9-12 seconds in 'standard' atmosphere/environment, and have it change depending on environment. Favour the 'sacrificial' sinks in most circumstances and at the same time, keep the system plausible.

Modifié par Sibbwolf, 12 février 2010 - 04:05 .

[Akimb0]

Dethateer wrote...

I'm getting really f**king sick of pointing out that the game initially DID have a hybrid system and that you can reenable it yourself...

As far as I can see, you've not actually said anything useful in this entire thread.

[Sibbwolf]

Dethateer, that does not excuse the official release.

[Akimb0]

Sibbwolf wrote...

I'd lengthen the cooldown to ~9-12 seconds in 'standard' atmosphere/environment, and have it change depending on environment. Favour the 'sacrificial' sinks in most circumstances and at the same time, keep the system plausible.

Yeah of course, as I said it'd have to of been play-tested for balance issues. However it worked, it would have been a great system in my opinion.

[Zem_]

[quote]Akimb0 wrote...

[quote]This is clearly an inferior weapon design. The clear solution would have been to have the "heat level" from ME1 and then eject a heatsink (or have the choice to) if your weapon overheated. I think this is how it should have worked.[/quote]

They wanted to remove unlimited ammo.  Overheating, even with ejectable heatsinks to speed up cooling, only limits rate of fire.  You can still sit back in cover, take your time, and use nothing but a sniper rifle.  That might be some people's idea of "fun combat" but it's not what the devs were shooting for (no pun intended) this time around.

[quote]5) This leads to the conclusion, that the heat sink idea is simply a contrived, poorly thought out excuse to force an "ammo" (heatsink) system onto us.[/quote]

I agree.  They should have just said, "We're changing this.  The unlimited ammo thing never happened." i.e. an above-board retcon.  At least we'd not have useless threads picking apart the explanation like it was some kind of proof that the whole system needs to be reverted.  The explanation IS contrived to force "ammo" on us.  That was indeed the point.

[quote]6) How it changes gameplay is irrelevant. However for those people saying "It makes you think tactically" that's not really true. All it does is slow down combat.[/quote]

It limits a resource which was previously unlimited.  This forces you to do *something* different whether that is aiming more carefully, using the right rock-paper-scissors power/weapon vs. a particular enemy, or positioning and using your teammates and their powers more actively than you did in ME1.  You have to do something.   Now, we can avoid calling that "tactics" if you really really want.

[quote]7) I never found myself running out of ammo (heatsinks), I just found the whole system utterly stupid and a large step back in both gameplay and ME lore.[/quote]

You are entitled to your opinion.

[quote]8) This is another example of how they (Bioware) should have taken the system from ME1 and improved upon it, instead of listening to the whiners, then ripping it out and replacing it with something as contrived as the "heat sink" system.[/quote]

Unlimited ammo is boring.  That's MY opinion.  Because it differs from yours I am one of the ME1 whiners?  Does that make you one of THIS game's whiners then?  Should they listen to YOUR whining for next time?

[Dethateer]

Akimb0 wrote...

Dethateer wrote...

I'm getting really f**king sick of pointing out that the game initially DID have a hybrid system and that you can reenable it yourself...

As far as I can see, you've not actually said anything useful in this entire thread.

First:

Dethateer wrote...





You guys do realize an unlimited ammo
mod already exists, and that you can do it yourself rather easily
anyway, rite?

Dethateer wrote...



Better
yet, here it is already done (by some guy named dogkisser, iirc).

http://www.mediafire.com/?et3n34wmm5h

Dethateer wrote...

Akimb0 wrote...

4)
The heatsinks are supposed to be universal. This is clearly not so in
the game, despite the lore stating it is how they work.

*sigh*
For
the over 9000th time... that is PURELY A GAMEPLAY MECHANIC. If you want
to know why you can't take clips from the ammo pool of one weapon and
use them in another's, then go play Deus Ex: Invisible War. Or pay
attention: BECAUSE THEN WHEN YOU WOULD RUN OUT OF AMMO FOR ONE WEAPON,
YOU WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO USE ANY OF THEM. You'd be stuck without a single
round.

(by the way, aiming more doesn't really help if you have a single ammo pool and there are no ammo drops whatsoever)

Second:
This is not the first thread about this, and saying the exact same thing over and over because people are too lazy to actually read the current threads and keep making new ones doesn't do wonders for your patience.

Modifié par Dethateer, 12 février 2010 - 04:18 .

[xODD7BALLx]

Br0th3rGr1mm wrote...

GotchaNL wrote...

King_Rob is just asking a normal question, people. Don't be so bloody rude.

I beg to differ.  Read his intial post again and tell me who's being rude....

I'm glad he found a solution, but the presentation of his "question" was a rant about the ammo system and the lack of continutiy in the ME universe lore. 

He was being rude to you?

Personally I think they should have stuck to the weapon/ammo system from E3 '09, you fire a finite number of rounds before you overheat and instead of waiting for cooldown you eject the heatsink and replace it with another. However "technically" ammo was unlimited.

And I recall running out of ammo quite a bit and having to switch up, even when advancing instead of sitting in one position to be pinned down. Typically one of my squadmates who just as in ME1 would get himself killed or pop up out of cover when his shields were down, which on Insanity your shields are like paper, so he'd get wasted so I'm picking up his slack/firepower and thus using more "heatsinks".  The codex explained this system as a way to avoid weapon malfunction, so that being said, how is it every weapon in the known galaxy went through some transformation by taking a huge leap backwards in technology?

Not trying to argue just stating my point of view, one being; shouldve stuck with the E3 '09 setup, and confused as to how heatsinks define the amount of rounds I can carry. Correct me if I'm wrong but does the codex in fact say "Heatsinks are universal, but not, and are not actually heatsinks at all, but magazines", if it says that then that's cool, but it doesnt.

[Akimb0]

[quote]Zem_ wrote...

[quote]Akimb0 wrote...

[quote]This is clearly an inferior weapon design. The clear solution would have been to have the "heat level" from ME1 and then eject a heatsink (or have the choice to) if your weapon overheated. I think this is how it should have worked.[/quote]

They wanted to remove unlimited ammo.  Overheating, even with ejectable heatsinks to speed up cooling, only limits rate of fire.  You can still sit back in cover, take your time, and use nothing but a sniper rifle.  That might be some people's idea of "fun combat" but it's not what the devs were shooting for (no pun intended) this time around.

[quote]5) This leads to the conclusion, that the heat sink idea is simply a contrived, poorly thought out excuse to force an "ammo" (heatsink) system onto us.[/quote]

I agree.  They should have just said, "We're changing this.  The unlimited ammo thing never happened." i.e. an above-board retcon.  At least we'd not have useless threads picking apart the explanation like it was some kind of proof that the whole system needs to be reverted.  The explanation IS contrived to force "ammo" on us.  That was indeed the point.

[quote]6) How it changes gameplay is irrelevant. However for those people saying "It makes you think tactically" that's not really true. All it does is slow down combat.[/quote]

It limits a resource which was previously unlimited.  This forces you to do *something* different whether that is aiming more carefully, using the right rock-paper-scissors power/weapon vs. a particular enemy, or positioning and using your teammates and their powers more actively than you did in ME1.  You have to do something.   Now, we can avoid calling that "tactics" if you really really want.

[quote]7) I never found myself running out of ammo (heatsinks), I just found the whole system utterly stupid and a large step back in both gameplay and ME lore.[/quote]

You are entitled to your opinion.

[quote]8) This is another example of how they (Bioware) should have taken the system from ME1 and improved upon it, instead of listening to the whiners, then ripping it out and replacing it with something as contrived as the "heat sink" system.[/quote]

Unlimited ammo is boring.  That's MY opinion.  Because it differs from yours I am one of the ME1 whiners?  Does that make you one of THIS game's whiners then?  Should they listen to YOUR whining for next time?[/quote]

Argh, hard to reply to mass quotes without it getting messy lol. I have to be off out soon so I'll try and keep it quick, so corresponding to your paragraphs:

1) Yep, however I think what the devs were shooting for with ME2 was a mistake.

2) Sort of, as you'll pick up if you read the posts, most people agree that the ME1 system wasn't perfect and that reverting to that system wouldn't be a step forward either. Hence suggesting somekind of hybrid system, that sticks with the lore set by ME1 and the new lore set by ME2.

3) It adds a contrived system which for me broke the immersion of the ME universe. People seem to fall back on the "it means you have to aim" excuse. I aimed in ME1 as well. Spraying 1000 shots off without aiming wouldn't have achieved much in ME1 either. The whole "rock paper snore" system of combat is poorly designed. All it does is slow combat down and renders most powers pointless to use. Again, in ME1 I always took the time to position my team and use their powers. ME2 forces you into this "use cover or you die, while you play paper, rock snore with the enemy." It's not really tactics as all fights break down into the same basic formula. This isn't an improvement over ME1. Again, I'm not saying ME1 had it right. However they didn't improve on it in ME2. (Except hit locations, the only combat improvement in ME2. This gave me a reason to aim for the head instead of centre of mass.)

4) I certainly am. However my opinion is backed up by the fact that it does contradict ME lore. That's one more fact supporting my claim that the system is poor, than everyone else who supports the ME2 system has put forward to support that the ME2 system is "better".

5) The guns still have "unlimited ammo" they just run out of heatsinks now. Which is stupid. I think you'd find that if they listened to my  "whining" (at least I take the time to construct a reasonable arguement to explain my opinions, instead of just saying "it's my opinion, end of." as if that justifies it as factual as most people seem to think it does.) that ME2 would have been a better game and that ME3 would be even better again, if they listened to my "whining". The majority of "complaints" about "infinite ammo" in ME1 boiled down to "lulz, I r nevar hav to stop shoot my gun, lolololol, is bad cuz it dont happen in real life." I know I shouldn't have used the "basic speak" to emphasise my point but it made me chuckle when I wrote it anyway, because it's basically true. Bioware just listened to the majority, because it helped them make better sales. It's good business sense, however it doesn't mean I'll ever like it and for me personally, it brought down my opinion of Bioware as a company.

So well, that wasn't as short as I'd intended, so I need to rush. Even if I kept replying, I'd be mostly repeating my points from these last few posts.

[Horribull]

This thread is both new and refreshing.

[Sibbwolf]

Operative84 wrote...
The codex explained this system as a way to avoid weapon malfunction, so that being said, how is it every weapon in the known galaxy went through some transformation by taking a huge leap backwards in technology?

(basing on lore, sorry)

Sorry, still amused as to this assessment, since the guns in ME1 still used heatsinks, but they weren't 'sacrificial', just internal. I say it's a step sideways in ME2 as they've apparantly done a straight swap from internal to sacrifical. A step backward would have been removing it completely, while a step forward would have been developing a hybrid system.

[King_Rob]

Sibbwolf wrote...

You still have yet to provide a real argument beyond "I want to use my sniper rifle at anything other than extremely close range".

Ummm... yes I have, using the sniper rifle is more tactically sound.  I can stay far away and still take out my enemies with precision, thus minimizing danger to myself while killing the enemy.  That cannot be done with the other weapons because you have to get close and be out of cover for a longer period of time, thus exposing yourself to enemy fire for longer. 

You haven't provided any sound reason other than "the game developers want you to" that I should use other tactics.

Why would ANYONE trade in their unlimited ammo sniper rifle for one you have to carry around bullets for that are bigger than modern sniper rifle shells?

You're not loading bullets, you're loading a heatsink.

I know, heatsinks which are much larger than bullets.  They don't seem to do that much more damage than a normal sniper rifle shell (based on the damage done to a person with no shields or armor), thus using a standard sniper rifle would be superior as you would be able to carry more ammo in the same amount of space.  The whole "slivers off of metal" becomes moot because you have to carry around bulky ammunition anyway.

By the END of ME1, with the rifle I had, I could shoot faster than the sniper rifle I'm using in this game and NEVER run out of ammo.

A good summary of the 'broken' mechanics of the first game. Well done.

You can't have it both ways, either you take the lore in the game as the "reason" behind the switch, or you take "repaired game mechanics"  you seem to be arguing for both when only one makes sense.

because it's not the ammo you're changing, but a heatsink?

the flaws are that
(1) there should still be an internal heatsink, the efficiency of which is entirely dependant on the environment (see the complicated programming coming into play yet?)
(2) "universal" heatsinks should be just that (and as such, a much larger pool would be needed)
(3) the codex fails to determine what happens to these 'expendable' heatsinks.

The flaws are deeper than that.  When you pick up a heatsink it puts "ammo" in all of your guns.  Presumably, it's not splitting the heatsink up into lots of little ones that go into each gun.  Thus, if I use a heatsink to fire my sniper rifle, it should take 1 "clip" worth of ammo from all of my other guns.

If there's one thing I've learned, it's that people HATE change, no matter how much improvement comes along with it.

Err, looking in a mirror? Sorry, I'd accept unltd ammo in a early 80s game, or an MMORPG, but not so readily in a solo RPG. While I understand the appeal, it's terribly immersion breaking especially when the explanation for it is implausible.

I didn't find it immersion breaking in ME1, I thought the heat explanation was pretty cool.  It stands to reason that if we can solve the non-trivial task of faster-than-light travel, we might be able to come up with a weapon system that doesn't rely on carting around boxes of ammunition.

As for change, it's not the change I mind, it was running around searching high and low for ammo after every battle.  There are a lot better ways they could have done it, but they were lazy and just coded a generic "pick up the bullets" ammo system.

[Computron2000]

King_Rob wrote...
I think YOU missed the point.  If they hadn't implemented this stupid ammo system, I wouldn't have to change to more dangerous tactics.  

I think the term is camper in shooter terms

King_Rob wrote...
Yes, stupid.  Why would ANYONE trade in their unlimited ammo sniper rifle for one you have to carry around bullets for that are bigger than modern sniper rifle shells?  

Although the codex never lists it and one could ascribe gameplay design changes to it, i thought the answer is simple to make out. Shield and armor tech advanced. Now your ME1 weapons has no ammo limits but damages modern armor like thrown paper clips. To compensate, weapon power was increased -> eg a single ME2 SMG round would overheat a double frictionless material X ME1 spectre pistol.

An analogy. Ever wondered why your old old 486 or 386 (or 8088 for ancients out there ) never had this big ass fan and heat sink sitting on top of it while all modern PCs have it? Or why graphic cards nowadays have their own fan?

I would love to see Bioware bring back the old Spectre weapons in a DLC and see players complain that firing a spectre assault rifle for 3 hours real time brought down the barrier of a collector though 

Modifié par Computron2000, 12 février 2010 - 05:11 .

[King_Rob]

Dethateer wrote...

I'm getting really f**king sick of pointing out that the game initially DID have a hybrid system and that you can reenable it yourself...

How do you reenable this hybrid system?  I'd like to check it out.  I found an unlimited ammo switch, but didn't look through the rest of the settings very carefully.

[Temper_Graniteskul]

Dethateer wrote...

I'm getting really f**king sick of pointing out that the game initially DID have a hybrid system and that you can reenable it yourself...

Unfortunately, that's not a solution for those of us playing on the 360. Wish it were. A released patch to restore it on Casual might be a solution?

Modifié par Temper_Graniteskul, 12 février 2010 - 05:15 .

[OnizukaBlues]

King_Rob wrote...

For the love of all that is holy, please please please create some kind of unlimited ammo patch or mod that can be toggled on if I so desire.  I spend more time in this game running around looking on the ground for ammo than I do listening to dialog... it's ridiculous. 

Why you would take such a cool game mechanic of having the guns heat up as you use them that was in ME1 I cannot fathom.  That system was awesome.  Not only that, the continuity of the series is totally screwed up.  Am I supposed to believe that in the two years I was gone, every single gun that used to function without these stupid throwaway heatsinks has been demolished and replaced with the garbage they have now?

I agree with you, I totally enjoyed ME1's system. Did too many people complain about it or something for BioWare to drastically change so much?

[King_Rob]

Computron2000 wrote...

King_Rob wrote...
I think YOU missed the point.  If they hadn't implemented this stupid ammo system, I wouldn't have to change to more dangerous tactics.  

I think the term is camper in shooter terms

King_Rob wrote...
Yes, stupid.  Why would ANYONE trade in their unlimited ammo sniper rifle for one you have to carry around bullets for that are bigger than modern sniper rifle shells?  

Although the codex never lists it and one could ascribe gameplay design changes to it, i thought the answer is be simple to make out. Shield and armor tech advanced. Now your ME1 weapons has no ammo limits but damages modern armor like thrown paper clips. To compensate, weapon power was increased -> eg a single ME2 SMG round would overheat a double frictionless material X ME1 spectre pistol.

An analogy. Ever wondered why your old old 486 or 386 (or 8088 for ancients out there ) never had this big ass fan and heat sink sitting on top of it while all modern PCs have it? Or why graphic cards nowadays have their own fan?

I would love to see Bioware bring back the old Spectre weapons in a DLC and see players complain that firing a spectre assault rifle for 3 hours real time brought down the barrier of a collector though 

Well, if the obsolescence of the ME1 weapon line were the reason for the "upgrade" you think they would have put it into the codex.  That doesn't explain why the guns seem to do pretty much the same amount of damage to unarmored/unshielded/unbarriered enemeis.

[Dethateer]

Uh, Rob, second page, third or so post. Mine. You replace your file with that one, and the vanilla weapons (doesn't work on DLC, unless you edit yourself their files) will regen their ammo. A bit awkward, though, since you have to overload a sink to eject it, the reload button won't work anymore.

[Sibbwolf]

To begin with.. the quote system is plain annoying here..

[quote]King_Rob wrote...

[quote]Sibbwolf wrote...

You still have yet to provide a real argument beyond "I want to use my sniper rifle at anything other than extremely close range".

[/quote]

Ummm... yes I have, using the sniper rifle is more tactically sound.  I can stay far away and still take out my enemies with precision, thus minimizing danger to myself while killing the enemy.  That cannot be done with the other weapons because you have to get close and be out of cover for a longer period of time, thus exposing yourself to enemy fire for longer.  [/QUOTE]

You're repeating basically what I said.. and judging by what you added, you're stuck in ME1 style tactics when moving between cover.

[quote]You haven't provided any sound reason other than "the game developers want you to" that I should use other tactics.[/quote]

Limited ammo, useful powers, squadmates, usually short distances between 'cover'.. used properly, you never run out (or usually, don't even run low) of ammo, or get killed.

[quote]

I know, heatsinks which are much larger than bullets.  They don't seem to do that much more damage than a normal sniper rifle shell[/quote]

What? The "heat sink" don't effect damage. I can see where you're going wrong...

[quote]You can't have it both ways, either you take the lore in the game as the "reason" behind the switch, or you take "repaired game mechanics"  you seem to be arguing for both when only one makes sense.[/quote]

I'm arguing I find the current solution more fun, but that the current solution is not really a solution.

[quote]
[quote]
he flaws are that
(1) there should still be an internal heatsink, the efficiency of which is entirely dependant on the environment (see the complicated programming coming into play yet?)
(2) "universal" heatsinks should be just that (and as such, a much larger pool would be needed)
(3) the codex fails to determine what happens to these 'expendable' heatsinks.
[/quote]

The flaws are deeper than that.  When you pick up a heatsink it puts "ammo" in all of your guns.  Presumably, it's not splitting the heatsink up into lots of little ones that go into each gun.  Thus, if I use a heatsink to fire my sniper rifle, it should take 1 "clip" worth of ammo from all of my other guns.[/quote]

Err.. (2).

And you claim to be reading.

[quote]
[quote]

[quote]If there's one thing I've learned, it's that people HATE change, no matter how much improvement comes along with it.[/quote]
Err, looking in a mirror? Sorry, I'd accept unltd ammo in a early 80s game, or an MMORPG, but not so readily in a solo RPG. While I understand the appeal, it's terribly immersion breaking especially when the explanation for it is implausible.

[/quote]

I didn't find it immersion breaking in ME1, I thought the heat explanation was pretty cool.  It stands to reason that if we can solve the non-trivial task of faster-than-light travel, we might be able to come up with a weapon system that doesn't rely on carting around boxes of ammunition.[/quote][/quote]

/facepalm

We're not! Or at least not supposed to be!

You're using poorly implemented 'universal' heat sinks, not ammo.

[quote]As for change, it's not the change I mind, it was running around searching high and low for ammo after every battle.  There are a lot better ways they could have done it, but they were lazy and just coded a generic "pick up the bullets" ammo system.[/quote]

That I can understand. Personally I never found it a problem as I like to search areas for hidden things anyway, but especially when there are none, it does feel a little pointless.

Modifié par Sibbwolf, 12 février 2010 - 05:27 .

[Slygar]

The sniper rifle has such limited ammo because it's really OP for it not to. I would like an ammo increase on the heavy pistol, though.

[Zem_]

Akimb0 wrote...

Argh, hard to reply to mass quotes without it getting messy lol. I have to be off out soon so I'll try and keep it quick, so corresponding to your paragraphs:

Yeah... my kingdom for a "preview post" button.  You leave one bloody extra quote tag...

4) I certainly am. However my opinion is backed up by the fact that it does contradict ME lore. That's one more fact supporting my claim that the system is poor, than everyone else who supports the ME2 system has put forward to support that the ME2 system is "better".

Uh... I didn't.   I agree the explanation sucks.  So?  Whether or not the game should have limited ammo is a matter of opinion.  There are no facts that can be applied to that.  Whether or not it needs an iron-clad lore-consistent explanation is also a matter of opinion.   I consider that a nice-to-have personally, but that's just my opinion.  Nitpicking inconsistencies in sci-fi techno-babble is practically a nerd-olympics event.  Just ask George Lucas about "jumping to light-speed".  Doesn't mean they should scrap the whole movie though.  They just fixed the explanation and pretended the whole "light-speed" thing never happened.

5) The guns still have "unlimited ammo" they just run out of heatsinks now. Which is stupid.

I agree. It's a stupid explanation.  Why do you keep bringing this up?  The idea that the game should have limited ammo is a design choice.  The explanation came AFTER that choice.  It is a by-product.  Getting hung up on debating the explanation is useless because it does not prove one way or the other that the decision to go with limited ammo was objectively bad or wrong.   

The majority of "complaints" about "infinite ammo" in ME1 boiled down to "lulz, I r nevar hav to stop shoot my gun, lolololol, is bad cuz it dont happen in real life." I know I shouldn't have used the "basic speak" to emphasise my point but it made me chuckle when I wrote it anyway, because it's basically true.

No, it really isn't.   I like the limited ammo.  I loved it in System Shock 2.  Finding a few precious rounds of AP in a locker somewhere was like Christmas.  I like RPGs.  Even turn-based ones.  I like shooters too.  Even the ones with flimsy stories.  Different games.  I don't need them all to be a particular way.  I enjoyed ME1, even with it's unlimited ammo, but it's not one of the aspects of the game I really cared about.  Sure, I could have pretended to care about each bullet I fired in ME1, but I really didn't have to.   I could hop out of the tank and fire twenty rounds of sniper into a turret just for the extra xp.  Meh.

[TobiasRieper]

OP is actually right when it comes to being true to canon or keeping a believable setting.



Not that I expect this to be a hard sci fi game, but if you spend that much time in the codex in the first game, really enjoying the tech talk and how they fixed the ammo problem, you're kinda disappointed when they do something like this in the sequel.



Not that it's THAT bad, but there were other, more believable ways.

[ToJKa1]

I've played an Infiltrator twice now, and not run out of ammo despite not touching the SMG (RP thing), using only Carniflex and Widow. The key is to make carefully aimed shots (cloak helps with this), and select team mates that have weapons and abilities that do most damage against the enemies ("Restart mission" autosave proves helpful here).



However that often mentioned hybrid system would sound more plausible. And wouldn't the heatsinks cool down when they're not in use, or are they for some reason not re-usable? Automatically replenishing ammo might make the game a bit too easy, though.