149 réponses à ce sujet

[hawat333]

The safest thing is to send Mordin back to the Normandy with the survivors. He'll survive.

Or it's something else. Dunno, I played the game three times by now, and so far, he never died.

[SilasWolfe]

Creston918 wrote...

That said, it's nuts that Zaeed doesn't qualify as a squad leader. I chose him as the fireteam leader my first playthrough, which killed Legion and him. The guy founded the largest merc organization, and he explains that throughout their first years, he was the guy doing all the work with the mercs, while Vido was doing the books. That's not a good squad leader?

Basically the rule is : Don't choose DLC characters for anything, because they haven't been integrated into the final mission.

It's easy to assume laziness on the part of Bioware but it is unfair when you consider the character of Zaeed. So let's address your reasoning.

1. He founded this organization a very long time ago and has been out of it for 20 years.
2. Do you know why he was no longer a part of it? Because he was brutally betrayed by the people he trusted. That kind of thing can have some lasting effects on a person.
3. Those effects being highlighted in his loyalty mission, in which he looks out for number one, first and foremost. Zaeed 20 years ago, good fireteam leader. Zaaed now? Lone bounty hunter about as qualified to lead a team as Thane. Same credentials when you look at the present-tense.

Has nothing to do with being a DLC character. The thread creator more or less confirms this if what he is saying is in fact true, because he's sure integrated well enough to hold the line.

[Nastrod]

I always sent Grunt with the crew back to the ship because I wanted a tougher person since he would be alone with them. Now I know it is better to send a squishy. Even though the only death I have had so far was having Thane go threw the vent. Was not thinking about the heat and skill but more he could handle himself alone.

Modifié par Nastrod, 10 février 2010 - 08:50 .

[Saurel]

Creston918 wrote...


How would Grunt and Samara be good squad leaders? Samara is a Justicar, she is ALWAYS fighting alone. She wouldn't have the slightest concept of effective squad tactics. Grunt is a little more possible because of potential knowledge instilled by Okeer, but even so, he's very individual and gung-ho in battle, which are NOT qualities you want in a squad leader.

I did put them in the Middle category. Which essentially meant they wouldn't be a total disaster (e.g. they die right off the bat or get everyone else killed).

Samara is pretty freakin old, so she has experience as a non-Justicar and was a merc at one point. So experience in squad matters wouldn't surprise me. If Grunt is loyal to Shepard , I could see his gung-ho ness getting people through.

[Lightice_av]

On both my play throughts the only thing I changed was my final squad. First time I took Garrus and Grunt. Second time I took Garrus and Thane. First play he lives, yet second play he dies? Despite having MORE "defenders" left behind?

Maybe there's a "dice throw", so to speak, to add a small element of randomity, and if it goes to the worst possible direction, the weakest link dies?

[Trishann]

unclee wrote...

In response to the Bioware explanation my question would be this: why did Mordin survive when I took Grunt with me (meaning he wasn't holding the line) yet died when I left Grunt to hold the line?

On both my play throughts the only thing I changed was my final squad. First time I took Garrus and Grunt. Second time I took Garrus and Thane. First play he lives, yet second play he dies? Despite having MORE "defenders" left behind?

"Hold the Line" (HTL), from the handy description, above, is a derivative score with several factors. It sounds like loyalty, squad selection, equipment, conversation choices and even level go into the final HTL score. For example, what happens when you forget to level the squad mates you never use? Does that have a factor in HTL? I bet it does.

So, at the end, in your example, there could be something with Grunt that causes the score to drop. Either he is too headstrong or not. Or, there could be there is a HTL negative ping by putting Grunt with a genophage scientist. Just say'n.

Quite an interesting mechanic. I like it. It seems random at first, but it makes sense. In any event, I believe random achievements are not allowed on the Xbox 360 system, and I doubt Bioware would fork the code for the PC.

The real issue here is people really dig that scientist, so when he dies it hurts. And of couse, it couldn't be your fault, right? :-)

[Gegenlicht]

Creston918 wrote...

That said, it's nuts that Zaeed doesn't qualify as a squad leader. I chose him as the fireteam leader my first playthrough, which killed Legion and him. The guy founded the largest merc organization, and he explains that throughout their first years, he was the guy doing all the work with the mercs, while Vido was doing the books. That's not a good squad leader?

Basically the rule is : Don't choose DLC characters for anything, because they haven't been integrated into the final mission.

My feelings, pretty much. Never mind the fact that they stress that the squad leader should be an experienced veteran. Well, the only character more experienced than Zaeed is Samara, but she is an admitted loner whereas Zaeed has that aforementioned history forming and leading the Blue Suns.

[PingoBlack]

Nadia73 wrote...

I've never ever lost Mordin. Kelly, yes, because of the damn timing of Legion's rescue and loyalty mission. Having to choose between a loyal Legion and losing half your crew... well, sorry Legion- crew wins!

You can have both, really.

[kaimanaMM]

Thanks alot for the write up, Dusty, that explains alot (and of course makes total sense)!



Make up for me was :



Legion in vents

Garrus as B Team Leader

Shep / Thane / Jack



Samara as biotic shield holder

Garrus again as B Team Leader

Jacob taking hostages back

Shep / Thane / Jack



Shep / Thane / Jack against the Reaper



Everyone lived, including Mordin.

[PSUHammer]

unclee wrote...

In response to the Bioware explanation my question would be this: why did Mordin survive when I took Grunt with me (meaning he wasn't holding the line) yet died when I left Grunt to hold the line?

On both my play throughts the only thing I changed was my final squad. First time I took Garrus and Grunt. Second time I took Garrus and Thane. First play he lives, yet second play he dies? Despite having MORE "defenders" left behind?

Probably a mix of equations based on taking certain people vs. not, who's loyal vs. who isnt, how upgraded their gear is, etc.

You should leave Grunt and Garrus back to hold the line...Every time I did that, no one died, regardless of who I took to the boss.  Everyone was loyal and I had all upgades, though.

[Destructo-Bot]

Bioware wrote: ...Characters like Mordin, Jack and Tali are squishy and not exoeruenced with bunkering down and holding out for an extended period of time...

Wasn't the plot when you go to get Mordin that he was able to single-handily hold off all the mercs from his clinic? Garrus also had a plot point where he was besieged but nobody could actually get to him.

Mordin seemed like a PRO at bunkering down for a siege.

Modifié par Destructo-Bot, 10 février 2010 - 11:10 .

[Saurel]

Destructo-Bot wrote...

Bioware wrote: ...Characters like Mordin, Jack and Tali are squishy and not exoeruenced with bunkering down and holding out for an extended period of time...

Wasn't the plot when you go to get Mordin that he was able to single-handily hold off all the mercs from his clinic? Garrus also had a plot point where he was besieged but nobody could actually get to him.

Mordin seemed like a PRO at bunkering down for a siege.

It really wouldn't surprise me if Mordin would have communication problems Give orders too fast and someone dies,, or else he starts thinking of alternate scenarios on what to do and the squad just seems a bit nervous sitting around.

He was part of Special Forces. But it sounded more like Recon/Saboteur stuff. To me at least.

[Destructo-Bot]

The problem is the game SHOWS you that he is an expert at holding ground against a sustained attack even by large numbers professional mercenaries and vorcha, then later on the collector mission claims he isn't any good at holding ground!

Modifié par Destructo-Bot, 10 février 2010 - 11:32 .

[TheGreyGhost119]

Mordin had used gas and mechs to hold his ground on OMEGA, though...

[AxoneNeurone]

I thought it was really weird that Mordin randomly dies! Maybe it's 'cause he's such an oldster. :[



But I took him with me in the final battle. He's actually the one who dealt the deathblow to the giant terminator at the end, hohoho. Gotta love Incinerate. So it's best to take him with you, and he's actually pretty darn useful in the final battle, anyway.

[Destructo-Bot]

TheGreyGhost119 wrote...

Mordin had used gas and mechs to hold his ground on OMEGA, though...

Those Mechs and gasses didn't deploy themselves. It just proves Mordin has a firm grasp of tactics and the ability to work under limited resources

[PSUHammer]

Destructo-Bot wrote...

TheGreyGhost119 wrote...

Mordin had used gas and mechs to hold his ground on OMEGA, though...

Those Mechs and gasses didn't deploy themselves. It just proves Mordin has a firm grasp of tactics and the ability to work under limited resources

Mordin's character is an engineer/scientist.  It's pretty obvious if you follow the people's actions, comments and backgrounds who would be good for which parts.  Mordin is clearly not your front line defender OR leader.  

[SpideyKnight]

This is why you take your squishies with you. Garrus leads all fire teams and holds the line and will never fail, ever, so long as he's loyal. I did the last mission with only 4 loyal on insanity and everyone lived. It's feasible to do it with 3 loyal. I don't see how quite yet though. I did it with Tali/Miranda/Garrus/Samara loyal, skipped everyone elses.

[Kim Stolz]

What you have to realize about mordin holding his own in his clinic is...he was in a clinic. Noone said he didn't get hurt fighting off random blue suns.No clinic in on the collector base and Zaeed's a really good fighter but if you talk to him in his quarters he talks about missions he's been on and all the people that went with him have died! That's not someone I'd want leading a team into combat .

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

SpideyKnight wrote...

This is why you take your squishies with you. Garrus leads all fire teams and holds the line and will never fail, ever, so long as he's loyal. I did the last mission with only 4 loyal on insanity and everyone lived. It's feasible to do it with 3 loyal. I don't see how quite yet though. I did it with Tali/Miranda/Garrus/Samara loyal, skipped everyone elses.

Did you save the crew?

One of the devs a while ago (not in this topic obviously) mentioned that to do it with 3 you need to sacrifice the crew, which basically means you don't send a loyal person back with them. Rest should pretty much fall into the same logic you used for your 4 man team. Your 4 man is similar to the one am planning but am gonna swap out Garrus for Mordin just to ensure the Salarian makes it back with the crew and have Samara and Tali as my final battle party with Miranda helping out the others in defence.

[Tony_Knightcrawler]

No, Kim. One of those guys who went with him is a governor now. ;-) I assumed Zaeed would be good for leading the fireteam. He's got tons of experience, he's tough, and he's a leader (he led lots of successful merc missions). I chose him because he's fairly neutral with the rest of the crew, so there wouldn't be any infighting. Joker even said he's like me but he takes checks instead. But he got the tech killed every time. :-P So I picked Garrus. I did send Zaeed back with the crew because I figured it'd take a tough son of a gun to defend a whole group of people all by himself.

I don't remember picking TWO people for holding the line. Maybe I'm crazy, but I thought EVERYONE stayed with one leader. I picked Garrus. He's half-tech, but he's got leadership experience which is why I chose him.

As for sending the squishies back to the ship and taking only big burly guys to take on the final boss... screw that! :-P 3 squishies took on the boss! All-engineer team FTW (me, Tali, and Legion). Of course I'd take Tali with me because she didn't get to go on my Ilos/Citadel mission. I was worried I may have made the wrong decision during that cutscene afterward... that beam looked heavy. But Tali needs to fight beside a geth to ever fully trust one. Of course, those are the reasons I had in my head. I doubt something like that would ever matter in the game.

Modifié par Tony_Knightcrawler, 11 février 2010 - 03:38 .

[Tahleron1]

radtz wrote...

Shipwr3K wrote...

Thats a good theory, I always leave garrus behind, and no one dies.

I left Garrus behind all three times and Mordin died once and lived twice....

soft time limit on the human reaper, i've used mordin on repeated playthroughs though, since his incinerate is as good as anything at damaging the reaper (armor).

Modifié par Tahleron1, 11 février 2010 - 03:43 .

[Collider]

Bioware should have made it so you actually actively pick who defends the line. We had no idea it would be like how they had it - where teammates have a chance of dying solely for not accompanying Shepard or being the escort.

Modifié par Collider, 11 février 2010 - 03:42 .

[NKKKK]

Here's something, if two of your squaddies die before the hold the line, this presumably causes Mordin to die if he was left behind (even if they're all Loyal)