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how is saving the base wrong


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#51
Divine Flame

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Abirn wrote...

Divine Flame wrote...

Keeping the base to give to TIM is like if America handed over a nuke to Al-Queda and then asked politely please don't use this for your own means. You just are supposed to study it but not use it as a weapon. Thanks Osama for understanding.


But if Al-Queda were to use it on a species threatening to wipe humans out of existance?


Wouldn't matter because after they're gone then that leaves them with the means to make more nukes like America makes em and then blow up who they want. Keeping the base just to extinguish one major threat to the whole galaxy seems shortsighted where as if you look at it long term i start to ask myself "What's TIM gonna use this stuff for when this is all over?" and it gives me bad feelings.

I guess overall that's why I blew it up. I have confidence in the humans ablilities and the alliances that Shepard can form to find an alternative way to destroy the reapers and saving the galaxy then resorting to handing the base over.

#52
Snowraptor

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Arryngow wrote...

There's a line from Legion's dialogue that probably expresses it best: (paraphrasing): "When you use another's technology, you follow a predictable path, and blind yourself to other alternatives."

annnnd giving it to TIM is just an all around BAD idea.

when i brought legion he told me to use it despite those that died

#53
CRISIS1717

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Reminds me of the end of the Watchman.

I think the lesson to learn here is the end doesn't justify the means, if you lose your humanity in the process your the same as the enemy your trying to fight.

While it would be smart to keep the base it's a decision that's dishonourable, just as Samesh Bhatia had the right to take his wifes body.

#54
cronshaw8

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jalynntownsend wrote...

i mean wouldn't it be useful against the collectors


yeah i think the paragon path is pretty consistant in its distrust of Cerburus. So even aside from the problem with what was going on at the base, there is the whole distrust of the Illusive man thing going on. Too many variables to do anything but destroy it.

#55
dragonic9100

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Arryngow wrote...

There's a line from Legion's dialogue that probably expresses it best: (paraphrasing): "When you use another's technology, you follow a predictable path, and blind yourself to other alternatives."

annnnd giving it to TIM is just an all around BAD idea.


he also says that technology has no moral standpoint and encourages you to keep the base

#56
Snowraptor

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Palathas wrote...

Well, it all depends on your point of view.

Some of my Sheps thought -
It'd be crazy to waste all that tech, why sacrafice all those people for nothing? Blowing it up is wrong and dishonouring those that died.

My other Sheps thought it was an abomination and it should be destroyed because the methods used to gain that tech is just too evil and nasty. To use the tech would be to ignore all those that died and dishonour their memory.

Dishonour... damn straight. You letting them rest in peace. And you heard shepard tell TIM that he would probably just build his own reaper, tim didnt refuse saying no i wouldnt, For all you know he would do the same thing that the collectors were doing to humans, rmbr tim will go to any lengths to saving Humanity, he would even sacrifce millions to save billions, but thats his problem, he doesnt look at the alternatives, the ends justify the means in his eyes, where he sees one way, some one else such as shepard will see a different alternative, one that doesnt require more human deaths

Modifié par Snowraptor, 10 février 2010 - 08:08 .


#57
dragonic9100

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its bad because its in the lower right hand corner of the dialogue wheel. thats always bad

#58
FlintlockJazz

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Malthurakesh wrote...

The only ones we know of who actually understood the Reapers' mass relays well enough to build their own were the Protheans. The Conduit they built is the only reason higher organic life still exists in non-slurpee form in the Mass Effect universe. I think it's safe to say that wasn't part of the Reaper masterplan. I think Caz has a good point about the difference between using and understanding Reaper tech.


Most don't understand the mass relays to build their own relays, but they understand the technology and are led down the path it takes them, which is the intention stated by both the reapers themselves and the geth (Legion tells you that they were offered a future, but chose their own, aka technology path).  I don't think most players understand just how much the mass effect is used, handweapons and biotics are both used and developed from it, the kinetic barriers are developed from it, space engines are developed from it, etc.  They understand it well enough just from studying the relays to develop whole new devices from it. 

So one colony got lucky and was missed by the reapers, it still doesn't change the fact that the reapers have stated that they want us to develop along set lines, that others who have dealt with them (the geth) have stated that is what the reapers want, and that anything we can learn from their technology they already know themselves in greater detail.

#59
tonnactus

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First:It is never a good idea to give such power to a man/organisation wo wasnt lead by any democratic principles or the idea of coexistence.Second,cerberus failed to many times.Rachni experiments,the lost colony,the derelict reaper.
They dont have anything under their control it seems.
Why shepardt should gave such advanced technology to fools??
Third,the galaxy races must be united to have a chance against the reaper and the illusive is not willed to share the advanced technology if he get it.
And the base is not even needed because a destroyed reaper(sovereign) exist.

Modifié par tonnactus, 10 février 2010 - 08:21 .


#60
FlintlockJazz

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allankles wrote...

Correct. Bioware's writers must have read the Hyperion Saga because organic civilizations relationship with Reaper tech (Mass Relays) is similar to how the Data Core controls space travel in the Hyperion Universe. In the Hyperion Universe humans don't understand the tech they're using because it was developed by the Data Core.

The Protheans were the only ones that we know who understood Mass Relay technology enough to put a hitch in the Reaper plans. If the organics in the ME universe trully understood Mass Relays the Repaers would have been held back or stopped long before Shepard ever existed imo.

Keeping the Collector Base would allow Ceberus to go one better than the Protheans, they could actually disassemble the Reaper threat as a whole, find weaknesses and maximize on the strengths of their technology.


The races do understand the technology behind the mass relays, they make guns and ships and shields out of their own plans from it.  If the organics knew how the mass relays worked they would have more places to run to when the reapers came to eat them, that's about it.  And the reapers would come up with ways in which to solve that problem as, again, they understand the technology better than anyone else, following in their path is part of the trap.

#61
Kosmiker

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It's not entirely bad since now we have these 2 super structures, one belonging to all the aliens (citadel) and one for humanity/cerberus (collectors base). During ME3 renegade/paragon options will imply the obliteration of one of these two bases by the reapers. If you destroy the base then Citadel will be... oh nevermind, i'm just imagining things...

#62
allankles

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FlintlockJazz wrote...

Malthurakesh wrote...

The only ones we know of who actually understood the Reapers' mass relays well enough to build their own were the Protheans. The Conduit they built is the only reason higher organic life still exists in non-slurpee form in the Mass Effect universe. I think it's safe to say that wasn't part of the Reaper masterplan. I think Caz has a good point about the difference between using and understanding Reaper tech.


Most don't understand the mass relays to build their own relays, but they understand the technology and are led down the path it takes them, which is the intention stated by both the reapers themselves and the geth (Legion tells you that they were offered a future, but chose their own, aka technology path).  I don't think most players understand just how much the mass effect is used, handweapons and biotics are both used and developed from it, the kinetic barriers are developed from it, space engines are developed from it, etc.  They understand it well enough just from studying the relays to develop whole new devices from it. 

So one colony got lucky and was missed by the reapers, it still doesn't change the fact that the reapers have stated that they want us to develop along set lines, that others who have dealt with them (the geth) have stated that is what the reapers want, and that anything we can learn from their technology they already know themselves in greater detail.


Yes the Reapers's know more about their tech than we do, hence the reason why keeping the base will change that. If thye know more about their tech, they can also figure out its limits. Without Mass Relay tech no civilization in ME can travel across the galaxy, it will take centuries before alternative technologies are formulated.

If people are interested in these kinds of stories they should try to get hold of the Hyperion series of books. In that universe humanity is also being kept at bay by a synthetic civization, because said synthetic civiliation are the only ones who understand long range space technology. Humanity in that universe also know how to travel FTL, but not with anykind of efficiency for long range travel.

#63
HomicidialFrog

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Vagula wrote...

HomicidialFrog wrote...

I think some people are forgetting here that TIM will most likely use the Reaper Tech after the invasion is over to make Humanity take over all the other races but not for even Humanity(Which IMO, would still be pretty bad.), instead for Cerberus.


What the hell does one tyrant matter when faced with total extinction of all life?


Considering there's probally going to be a way to defeat the Reapers without using their technology(Which once again is a bad idea, The Reapers wanted us to use their technology, if we do we're predictable and easy to defeat, not that we're not already easy to defeat since there was like 1000000 Reapers at the end of ME2.), alot.

#64
allankles

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FlintlockJazz wrote...


The races do understand the technology behind the mass relays, they make guns and ships and shields out of their own plans from it.  If the organics knew how the mass relays worked they would have more places to run to when the reapers came to eat them, that's about it.  And the reapers would come up with ways in which to solve that problem as, again, they understand the technology better than anyone else, following in their path is part of the trap.


It's not part of their plan for us to study them. If you remember Ceberus were on the way to understanding Reapers before the team got indocrinated. Indocrination is the only danger really, thankfully the Collector base doesn't have an intact Reaper anymore, the only one there was a fetus that got completely obliterated.

The base is full of Reaper data, their composition, their weaponry, their numbers, their defenses. That's a lot of potentially vital data. Good luck fighting the Reapers without that info, maybe Bioware will throw a bone with some other plot device in ME 3, but I'd still rather have all my cards.

#65
Stofsk

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CRISIS1717 wrote...

I think the lesson to learn here is the end doesn't justify the means,

It depends on what the end result is and what means were taken to achieve it. It also depends on what system of ethics you're applying to the situation.

The consequences of saving the base versus blowing it up aren't known. You have to factor in a number of different variables:

-every project Cerberus has been involved in has resulted in utter failures with often tragic loss of life (the mess you've had to clean up as in ME1 and in ME2)
-TIM is a clear manipulator and acts in a treacherous fashion on too many occasions to warrant trust in this case.

From these two points, we can tell that Cerberus/TIM are neither trustworthy enough nor competent enough to be handed the keys to the mansion. What about saving the base?

-observed technology is limited to turning humans into milk shakes. This is only useful if you intend to create your own Reaper. Question becomes who will be sacrificed for the greater good? Who gets to choose? And as someone pointed out already, why wouldn't TIM simply sacrifice non-human lives towards that end? And if you can create your own Reaper - how can you guarantee you can control it? How can you create enough of them in order to counter the Reaper fleet (of which there are likely to be thousands)? How long does it take for a Reaper larva to reach maturity? How many people have to be reduced to their 'essence' in order to create this fleet?
-the Thanix cannon trumps the Collectors defences, so they don't have anything that can help improve weapon technology.

vs the vague possibility there might be some technology or intel that can be derived by keeping the base intact, which may or may not be useful. EDI has datamined parts of the base, however, there is no way to know how much intel she has vs how much could have still been found.

What about the risks?

-a 'dead' Reaper was still able to affect a Cerberus team and indoctrinate them all.
-the radiation pulse might wipe out all the Collectors at the base, but that's no guarantee there aren't other Collectors in other ships who might return to base and attempt to retake the base.
-the Collectors may have also planned contingency measures including booby traps and purging their databanks so no intel can be taken from it.
-Harbinger is a Reaper, and he takes direct control of Collectors and fights you. It isn't a stretch to conclude that the Reapers might have the ability to directly commune with the Base using whatever communications link up already exist - thus opening up a backdoor the enemy can exploit.
-Baby Arnold may not have been totally killed. Even if he's dead, see the first point about the derelict reaper ship.

From the above, I wouldn't trust Cerberus to open a can of baked beans (that were already open) let alone give them the base and say "Good luck, try to not totally mess it up". I also doubt the technology is at all useful from what we've observed. Like I said, the new Thanix cannon defeats collector defences, so there's nothing useful that can upgrade your armour or barriers etc. Weapons tech are particle beams, which you've already got one example from Horizon. The only tech that we've seen is the reaper making factory, with all the associated problems that entails. We can't rule out any other tech that's hiding in the corners, but there's no guarantee that this will be useful or without risk.

I'd blow it up. Keeping it just doesn't seem worth it, especially since it means handing it over to Cerberus and TIM.

#66
allankles

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You're kidding yourself if you think Cerberus are incompetent.
- They successfully resurrected a dead man.
- They've eluded Council and Alliance authorities.
- They recreated the most advanced ship in the galaxy and made it even better, bigger, more powerful and more efficient and did without the authorities knowing or even if they knew, being able to stop them.
- They're constantly pushing the limits of the technology available and improving military tech, not to mention they have impressive financial resources.
- They've taken risks and been burnt, but overall they get their objectives accomplished, mostly.
- They have no red tape, no bs gets between them and their goals. Yes they are ruthless and uncompromising a lot of the time, bordering on idiocy, but you can't help but admire their focus in realizing their ambitions. 

Modifié par allankles, 10 février 2010 - 08:43 .


#67
SolaFide03

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I destroyed the base (today actually). Illusive Man and I had common goals right to that point - then it was splitsville. I love the dialog choice afterward - "you are on my team now".



I've been playing Paragon big time since ME1, and for me I kept thinking about the Quarians and the Geth. Enough problems in the universe without more failed experiments.



I did reprogram the Geth though. Will be interested to see what Bioware does with this storyline in ME3.

#68
Riot Inducer

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Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

It's like we get one of these threads every day.


I know, please BioWare, put the search button back on these forums! It's starting to feel like Groundhog's Day coming here now. :crying:

But on topic, it's a bad idea because, 1 it's a reaper factory that liquifies organics to do so, 2 you're handing the base over to one of the most ethically dubious organizations in the galaxy, and 3 even Miranda the, "Cerberus Cheerleader" is willing to throw away her career in order to stop TIM from getting this base. 

#69
Mikazukinoyaiba2

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allankles wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...


The races do understand the technology behind the mass relays, they make guns and ships and shields out of their own plans from it.  If the organics knew how the mass relays worked they would have more places to run to when the reapers came to eat them, that's about it.  And the reapers would come up with ways in which to solve that problem as, again, they understand the technology better than anyone else, following in their path is part of the trap.


It's not part of their plan for us to study them. 

You're already indoctrinated

#70
Stofsk

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allankles wrote...

You're kidding yourself if you think Cerberus are incompetent.

Their track record is there for all to see.

- They successfully resurrected a dead man.

The person directly responsible for that... is on my team.

- They've eluded Council and Alliance authorities.

Irrelevant. We're talking about their track record on their black ops projects, not how well they can run and hide.

- The recreated the most advanced ship in the galaxy and made it even better, bigger, more powerful and more efficient.

Given it has the same shape and drive system, this couldn't have been possible without having the plans to the SR1 anyway. Improving a design that's already known is infinitely easier than figuring out alien technology that nobody understands.

- They constantyl pushing the limits of the technology available and improving military tech, not to mention they have impressive financial resources.

Having resources and using them competently are two different things.

- They've taken risks and been burnt, but overall they get their objectives accomplished, mostly.

What a load.

From ME1:

-Akuze. What 'results' did this have? Did they develop anything useful out of this? Because a lot of dead colonists and marines deserve some answer.
-Rachni. Attempts at what... breeding them? Controlling them? Didn't work anyway, rachni got loose and killed people.
-They turned an entire colonial pioneer team into husks. For some reason.
-They murdered ADM Kohuku, who uncovered how they're using illegal genetic experimentation to try and create some kind of super soldier. None of this resulted in any success, near as anyone can tell.

From ME2:

-The Lazarus project was a success - which very nearly wasn't because one of the project leads got tiffed that Miranda wasn't nice to him. Many people died and near as we can tell, only three people made it off that base alive.
-The team sent in to that derelict reaper didn't know what they were dealing with and became indoctrinated. So much for competence.
-The SR2 is better than the SR1. Ok, I'll give you that one. By my count, that's one success out of half a dozen failures, that we know about. And when they make failures, lots of people tend to die.

#71
Promethean 47

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I don't think it's "wrong" to save the base. I do think it's a risk. Indoctrination - the notion that people around the reapers are not in control of themselves - was a big plot in the first game, and touched upon in the second game with the 'heretic geth.' There are unknown risks to keeping a reaper manufacturing base around - who else might be on the other side of the Omega Relay that could take advantage of an empty collector base? What if there's an indoctrination source in the base? What if using the Reaper technology opens one up to hacking/control.

Another theme in the first game is that the Reapers INTENTIONALLY left behind the mass relays in order to make their extermination of the races easier to carry out. The message from this is that free technology, even super advanced tech from the reapers - isn't necessarily a good thing.

For example - imagine if (in the ME universe) humanity never discovered the mass effect relay, or never went to mars - the reapers would have no need to exterminate them. They left earth alone for millions of years because there was no spacefaring organics on it (i.e. no threat to the reapers [or whoever built them[) and therefore no one to use the mass relay in that system. The argument could very easily be made that the safest way for humanity to ensure its survival is to blow the mass effect relay in their start system into darkspace and abandon all spacefaring attempts. Now - the at is out of the bag, so most would agree humanity has to find some way to defeat the reapers. But that's just an argument.

Really - the larger theme though, and the one reflected by Shepard's statemetns if you choose to blow the base up - is that for better or for worse - humanity isn't going to let the Reapers change or guide them anymore - we'll live or die based on who we are and what we invent.

Legion and the Geth have adopted this approach - the heretics submitted to sovereing for the sake of gaining his technology.  The non-heretic geth have said for better or worse they will develop their own technology. If you choose to blow up the base, you are essentially taking sides in that argument.  Follow the reapers and hope for the rewards, or march to your own drum and face the potential consequences (galaxy wide extermination).

Some may call that foolish pride/fear, some wouldn't. Hence the choice - and what a wonderful choice it was Bioware. Thanks.

Modifié par Promethean 47, 10 février 2010 - 08:58 .


#72
Katarian

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allankles wrote...

You're kidding yourself if you think Cerberus are incompetent.

- They've eluded Council and Alliance authorities.
- They recreated the most advanced ship in the galaxy and made it even better, bigger, more powerful and more efficient and did without the authorities knowing or even if they knew, being able to stop them.


Firstly you are allowed to wander around the Citadel. Dock a Cerberus ship filled with Cerberus personnal and no one even mentions that maybe they should be arresting you or the crew and impounding the ship. So that's hardly any indication of how great Cerberus are at eluding the authorities, it's massive evidence for the authorities being even more incompetent.

They've recreated the most advanced Alliance ship, not in the Galaxy. Most likely in the Terminus system where the Council or Alliance can't look for them or stop them.

#73
Vagula

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HomicidialFrog wrote...

Vagula wrote...

HomicidialFrog wrote...

I think some people are forgetting here that TIM will most likely use the Reaper Tech after the invasion is over to make Humanity take over all the other races but not for even Humanity(Which IMO, would still be pretty bad.), instead for Cerberus.


What the hell does one tyrant matter when faced with total extinction of all life?


Considering there's probally going to be a way to defeat the Reapers without using their technology(Which once again is a bad idea, The Reapers wanted us to use their technology, if we do we're predictable and easy to defeat, not that we're not already easy to defeat since there was like 1000000 Reapers at the end of ME2.), alot.


We as gamers know there is going to be another way to defeat the Reapers but from the perspective of Shepard it would be pretty ridicilous to assume that he wouldn't take every chance to fight the godlike threat that has been successfull for millions of years.

#74
Arryngow

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dragonic9100 wrote...

Arryngow wrote...

There's a line from Legion's dialogue that probably expresses it best: (paraphrasing): "When you use another's technology, you follow a predictable path, and blind yourself to other alternatives."

annnnd giving it to TIM is just an all around BAD idea.


he also says that technology has no moral standpoint and encourages you to keep the base


Completely besides the point. I quoted him simply because he phrased the general principle in the best terms, not because I believe Legion to be the absolute moral authority on my team. He's not my Jiminy Cricket by any means.

#75
Caz Neerg

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Really, the only ways blowing the base makes sense are through meta-gaming, or if your Shepard honestly believes that it is more important to take morally correct actions than for sentient life itself to continue. When you *know* the writers aren't going to punish Paragon choices, at least not the big ones, then you can safely feel holier-than-thou and look down on people who choose to keep the base. If you base your decisions *only* on what your Shepard could possibly know, and guide your actions through pure logic, with no reference to ethics or morality, keeping the base is a no-brainer.