256 réponses à ce sujet

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

I disagree with KnightofPhoenix's decision to keep the base, but he's destroying everybody in this thread.

[Giantevilhead]

The probability of indoctrination seems pretty high. Simply being near the tech that make Husks seems to make people go crazy. The dragon's teeth was enough to make the people on Chasca go crazy and turn each other into Husks.

It's unlikely that Cerberus will be able prevent indoctrination. They failed to prevent the people working on the derelict Reaper from going crazy and that piece of technology was arguably even more valuable than the Collector base. Not to mention the fact that it was in a relatively safe system that no one had control over. Not only is the Collector base in an extremely dangerous region of the galaxy, they need to go through the Omega 4 relay to get there. If they move too many ships through the relay, it'll draw the attention of the Terminus system races. It might not be long before they get attacked by pirates, or worse.

There is also the problem with Harbinger being able to communicate with the Collector base. It's difficult to tell if it has any control over the base but it's hard to believe that it wouldn't have some power over it. At the very least, Harbinger could probably send a virus.

Plus it seems unlikely that the base actually contains knowledge on how to build the Reapers. The Collectors were pretty much mindless so it seems more likely that Harbinger was directing the construction of the Reapers.

Modifié par Giantevilhead, 11 février 2010 - 10:29 .

[DarthRic]

JaegerBane wrote...

jalynntownsend wrote...

i mean wouldn't it be useful against the collectors

Name one single project where Reaper technology was successfully studied and used on a large scale without everything going ****** up.

There's your answer.

The Thanix cannon

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

DarthRic wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

jalynntownsend wrote...

i mean wouldn't it be useful against the collectors

Name one single project where Reaper technology was successfully studied and used on a large scale without everything going ****** up.

There's your answer.

The Thanix cannon

Having a big gun isn't the same as working on a gigantic reaper ship.

[Archilochos]

Abirn wrote...

Ibby1kanobi wrote...

You're giving a weapon to a terrorist organization which professes Human dominance in the universe over other races by any means. Furthermore, the weapon is fueled by LIQUEFYING SENTIENT BEINGS.

Need any more explanation about why it's considered the "bad" choice?

Do you guys not understand the concept of a galatic holocaust.  I find it Ironic with people comparing TIM to Hitler in that everybody arguing against keeping the base seems to think that there is something more important than preventing galactic wide genocide.  

The problem with this is that there is no necessary connection between keeping the base and preventing the genocide.  There is no guarantee that keeping the base will have any effect on the coming war.  All you can really learn from it concerns the nature of the Collectors and the process of creating Reapers.  It's not like adapting Sovereign's guns for your own ships.  To use it against the Reapers would basically mean creating your own Reapers.  Is it worth a genocide to prevent a genocide?

[gotthammer]

Massadonious1 wrote...

If there was a way to study reaper tech without keeping the base, then I would be all for it, but as it stands, no, it needed to be destroyed.

I don't think I could set up camp in Auschwitz and conduct experiments, different or otherwise, without being constantly reminded of what was being done there.

I dunno. Say, after WW2, the Soviets had the means (logistics, manpower, etc.) to invade the West, and the only means of stopping them was doing research in Auschwitz...wouldn't you do everything necessary to protect your way of life? (bah. Patton should've been allowed to go further 'East'...  )

Isn't the situation in ME2 similar? You have that base as a massive tragedy, BUT it MAY hold the means to help stop the IMPENDING assault of the Reapers...you would write it off simply because of the horrors perpetrated there? Wouldn't the potential of saving more lives from the work done there give more meaning to the deaths of the civilians/crewmen? *shrugs*

Oh, and I destroyed the base.
Just coz' I thought it'd be cooler. (pissed off TIM, too)

[Giantevilhead]

DarthRic wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

jalynntownsend wrote...

i mean wouldn't it be useful against the collectors

Name one single project where Reaper technology was successfully studied and used on a large scale without everything going ****** up.

There's your answer.

The Thanix cannon

Technically, all the mass effect technology is based on what the Reapers left behind. However, most of that tech was not designed to mess with people's heads.

[NihilisticN]

JaegerBane wrote...

jalynntownsend wrote...

i mean wouldn't it be useful against the collectors

Name one single project where Reaper technology was successfully studied and used on a large scale without everything going ****** up.

There's your answer.

Thanix cannons?

[Tyfreaky]

Most have already stated something like this but here goes:



Lets say someone discovered a way to live forever.

Lets suppose that process involved liquefying the brains of Germanic toddlers, the crushed hearts of happy puppies, and the dust of kitten bones.



Now someone discovers this and kills the bastard who made said concoction. But his friend the scientist wants to study the research, thinking(and probably correct) that some kind of useful development could be had.



But its still a formula for EVERLASTING life, even if studied for good reasons, someone somewhere is going to abuse that formula, and say its for the sake of mankind. That what they are doing is the write thing, even though it involves killing babies, puppies and kitties.



Some things you just burn when you have the chance, and you don't look back at what if.





That being said I am having a real problem with the Geth Base and the Mordan loyalty mission:

The right thing to do in both cases is to destroy the base and the genophage research. But those are renegade choices....



What did you guys do?

[Mudzr]

The first thought I had was that all these people got melted into tubes, and it would be for nothing if you destroyed the base.

And then I thought, hang on, this is cerebus and the reapers we're talking about here.

So I destroyed the base to smitherines.

[wraith1113]

I went with what I felt was right. I suggest everyone do the same and then bicker on an internet forum over who made the right decision

[shaneho78]

Tyfreaky wrote...

Most have already stated something like this but here goes:

Lets say someone discovered a way to live forever.
Lets suppose that process involved liquefying the brains of Germanic toddlers, the crushed hearts of happy puppies, and the dust of kitten bones.

Now someone discovers this and kills the bastard who made said concoction. But his friend the scientist wants to study the research, thinking(and probably correct) that some kind of useful development could be had.

But its still a formula for EVERLASTING life, even if studied for good reasons, someone somewhere is going to abuse that formula, and say its for the sake of mankind. That what they are doing is the write thing, even though it involves killing babies, puppies and kitties.

Some things you just burn when you have the chance, and you don't look back at what if.


That being said I am having a real problem with the Geth Base and the Mordan loyalty mission:
The right thing to do in both cases is to destroy the base and the genophage research. But those are renegade choices....

What did you guys do?

I do not know which is the better moral choice, especially given the lack of knowledge regarding Cerberus' resources and any records of their past research on Reaper technology. All I know is, a moral choice must be right or wrong inherently and not based on consequences. Saving the base cannot be the right choice ONLY if the resulting research succeeds in defeating the reapers. Similarly, destroying the base cannot be the wrong choice ONLY if future evidence points to the base as humanity's only effective weapon against the reapers.

Modifié par shaneho78, 11 février 2010 - 11:04 .

[Fulgrim88]

Uh...this again?



I'm not sure if i have the nerves to argument against 200 people crying

BUT ITZ TEH INDOCTRINATION MAGIC!!!!!!1111 AND CERBERUS IS BAD MHKEY!!!!!11

once again...



Did that in the other threads, solved nothing. I can only hope that people who blew that place up just to ****** of TIM get what they deserve

[FlintlockJazz]

wraith1113 wrote...

I went with what I felt was right. I suggest everyone do the same and then bicker on an internet forum over who made the right decision

I fully endorse this idea!

[FlintlockJazz]

Fulgrim88 wrote...

Uh...this again?

I'm not sure if i have the nerves to argument against 200 people crying
BUT ITZ TEH INDOCTRINATION MAGIC!!!!!!1111 AND CERBERUS IS BAD MHKEY!!!!!11
once again...

Did that in the other threads, solved nothing. I can only hope that people who blew that place up just to ****** of TIM get what they deserve

Oh noes, people have differing opinions to you, whatever will you do?

[Sharn01]

If you stomp a babies head in with your boot heel, it hardly matters what the reason for it is, you still stomped a babies head in with your boot heel.



The ends justify the means is just an excuse immoral people use so they never have to feel guilty about their action's.



Now, its a game, so from a game perspective, choose what you think the character will do. But if you are trying to argue real behavior your just fooling your self.

[Caz Neerg]

FlintlockJazz wrote...
False, I disagree, there are plenty of in-universe reasons to destroy the base based on logic, and is totally rational.  You know the illusive man will abuse it, as if you ask him if he intends to make a reaper he does not answer the question, coupled with the fact that you know Cerberus has performed horrific experiments before, and have their own agenda.  Also, you don't know if you will be able to destroy the base later despite people claiming otherwise, and even if they can they won't know whether it was a bad idea until it's too late and Cerberus have already got the technology or moved it to somewhere hidden where they can study it in greater depth.  People saying that it's the same as us taking the technology from german experiments in WW2 are missing an important point: we didn't carry on those experiments, Cerberus will.  If the races have not worked out the Mass Relays yet then they are not going to  work out the Reaper-manufacturing process in time to make anything worthwhile, and that is about the only thing there that seems to be worthwhile, since everything else the Collectors have doesn't seem much more advanced than what we already have. 

EDI has already datamined the base's computers and got information from it, and I doubt the Collectors will have anything that will help against the reapers, since their weapons don't seem that advanced and the reaper-tech will probably be useless except to use it to make a reaper (which is the stupidest plan I can think of). 

At least that is one way of viewing it, and I'm sure you can point out evidence to the contrary, but that is the point: it was a judgement call you get to make which has no real right or wrong answer, despite what you might sit there and say, just what you personally conclude is right.  As the Geth say, you may say 1 is less than 2, but I say 2 is less than 3, we are both right. 
But then, it appears that some people seem to think that only their conclusions matter...

We would probably disagree on what constitutes an "abuse" of the knowledge offered by the base, but that is beside the point.  Ultimately, from an in-universe perspective, it doesn't matter what Cerberus would do with the tech after the Reapers are defeated.  From an in-universe standpoint, things look grim.  It looks like the Reapers will win.  Given that setting, the rational course of action is to be willing to do absolutely *anything* to defeat them, and post victory consequences be damned.  Throwing away something that *for all you know* could be your only chance to get through tomorrow just because there *might* be negative consequences from using it the day after tomorrow simply does not make sense.

[Fulgrim88]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Fulgrim88 wrote...

Uh...this again?

I'm not sure if i have the nerves to argument against 200 people crying
BUT ITZ TEH INDOCTRINATION MAGIC!!!!!!1111 AND CERBERUS IS BAD MHKEY!!!!!11
once again...

Did that in the other threads, solved nothing. I can only hope that people who blew that place up just to ****** of TIM get what they deserve

Oh noes, people have differing opinions to you, whatever will you do?

Discuss for a while, see how futile it is, resign.

It can be quite frustrating to write walls of text reasoning your point, just to have the same cheap counter-arguments brought up a page later, completely ignoring everything you've said.

If you think that blowing up the only piece of both technology and evidence, just because theres the mere possibility of getting your hands dirty, have at it

Modifié par Fulgrim88, 11 février 2010 - 11:33 .

[Frotality]

yet another flaw of the naughty/nice morality system that bioware never accounted for: people having differing opinions of what is right or wrong.

yes the para/renegade system doesnt represent right/wrong in theory, but functionally its still railroading you into one of 2 moral compasses, and for human beings who make their own individual moralities; this is no good.

both options have logical and ethical merit; wouldnt be very interesting if the choice wasnt hard after all.

on one hand, you have saving the base. now, operating on the assumption that in ME3 saving it doesnt automatically equate to unbreakable loyalty to cerberus, it has 1000 and 1 uses. studying reapers has always ended badly before, often because they wanted us to study it or, being epic ancient gods, they accounted for it with mindf**k abilities that transcend death. but they never wanted you to have the base, and considering the embryiotic nature of the only actual reaper in the base, death-transcending indoctrination isnt likely. reaper tech has been done successfully before (thanix cannon) and the base only actually contains the technology of the collectors, which have again been successfully studied and applied without disastarous results, as they presumably dont have the full technological capabilities of their masters. the reapers have been doing their thing for at least 37 BILLION years, if we come out of the harvest a cerberus run human empire; oppressed; depressed; billions dead, the rest living like crap, it will still be better than anyone has ever done before. and again, keeping it (hopefully) doesnt mean that we wont ever have the option of giving it to anyone but cerberus; the possibilities are too great to not share with the rest of the galaxy, and if TIM doesnt like it, he can suck it, becuase shep has the only ship capable of reaching it. (silly TIM, bet you regret not putting in that control chip now)

now on the other hand, is blowing it to hell; again, with good reason. the reapers are omnipotent, all powerful gods; anything they touch (so to speak) is done so with a plan; a plan that usually results in possesion, enslavement, or other such bad things. every piece of their technology that we use we have used because they wanted us to; anything they didnt want us touching, they made sure it huskified us. we approach the baby reaper with as much ignorance as curiosity. it could be a great scientific asset; it could mindf**k you like everything else reaper, it could explode with nuclear force in 10 seconds, or it could show you its favorite pet kitten; you have no idea, but you do know the typical result of doing anything with a reaper other than blowing it up, so you do just that; there is too many things that can go wrong if you keep it, and anything using a giant human goo machine cant be for your benefit.

both can be considered paragon or renegade, you can make an ethical choice to destroy that which does very bad things, or to preserve an asset to the galaxy at the possible expense of you, cerberus, and/or whoever studies it (sacrifice FTW)

or you can be the AT ALL COSTS guy and keep it cause mindf**k or not, its immensely useful; and you need anything and everything to win; or you can blow it up, because immensely useful or not; being midf**ked aint gonna help you win; and the only good reaper is a disintegrated one.

theres 4 moral reasons right there; 2 more than is offered by the current system (which i say not becuase of it being 2 choices but becuase the reasoning behind them is left to the 2 sided morality system and not the player.)

[pelhikano]

Since saving (or destroying) the base is an actual option you get in-game, I'd say it's not "wrong" either way. I doubt Bioware will make ME3 so that it ends with a Reaper victory right after importing your character because you did the "wrong" choice. One reason I went with the "save the base" option is that I'm very curious how Bioware will handle this decision, I want to know what happens. Even if it's indoctrination and a boon to the Reapers, I want to know how it plays out. It's just the more interesting situation rather than just blowing it up and it's gone.

[Sapienti]

Its not wrong. Just saving it is seen by some people in the game as renegade. Being renegade or paragon is not a definition of the right thing to do or the wrong thing to do. Its a label put on some actions. Its not good or evil. Just another decision you can make. I chose to blow it up myself. But I can definitely see why you'd want to keep it around. The only thing I'd want to prevent is giving it to Cerberus. I wish you could keep the base and then give the alliance a bunch of dirt on Cerberus to squash them or something. Then again can't really trust the alliance any more than Cerberus either...

[Barquiel]

I destroyed the base

- I'm not saving the galaxy so TIM can turn it into a human tyranny

- EDI scanned the base and received all the available data on the reapers

- your squadmates (all of them) think it is a bad idea to keep the base

[priestess of blood]

Oh, and I destroyed the base.
Just coz' I thought it'd be cooler. (pissed off TIM, too)

"Hell of a way to tell the boss you're quitting."

I destroyed the base similar to the reason I saved the council, humanity being apart of the galaxtic community is a wonderful thing. Humanity raising themselves (or atleast those in charge) up as the be all, end all of the galaxy is a very very bad idea power like that will get abused.

Modifié par priestess of blood, 11 février 2010 - 11:56 .

[nitefyre410]

jalynntownsend wrote...

i mean wouldn't it be useful against the collectors

 


Well can you come up  with a reason to keep a GIANT  F*CKING  human  blender because i sure as hell can't 

[FlintlockJazz]

Caz Neerg wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...
False, I disagree, there are plenty of in-universe reasons to destroy the base based on logic, and is totally rational.  You know the illusive man will abuse it, as if you ask him if he intends to make a reaper he does not answer the question, coupled with the fact that you know Cerberus has performed horrific experiments before, and have their own agenda.  Also, you don't know if you will be able to destroy the base later despite people claiming otherwise, and even if they can they won't know whether it was a bad idea until it's too late and Cerberus have already got the technology or moved it to somewhere hidden where they can study it in greater depth.  People saying that it's the same as us taking the technology from german experiments in WW2 are missing an important point: we didn't carry on those experiments, Cerberus will.  If the races have not worked out the Mass Relays yet then they are not going to  work out the Reaper-manufacturing process in time to make anything worthwhile, and that is about the only thing there that seems to be worthwhile, since everything else the Collectors have doesn't seem much more advanced than what we already have. 

EDI has already datamined the base's computers and got information from it, and I doubt the Collectors will have anything that will help against the reapers, since their weapons don't seem that advanced and the reaper-tech will probably be useless except to use it to make a reaper (which is the stupidest plan I can think of). 

At least that is one way of viewing it, and I'm sure you can point out evidence to the contrary, but that is the point: it was a judgement call you get to make which has no real right or wrong answer, despite what you might sit there and say, just what you personally conclude is right.  As the Geth say, you may say 1 is less than 2, but I say 2 is less than 3, we are both right. 
But then, it appears that some people seem to think that only their conclusions matter...

We would probably disagree on what constitutes an "abuse" of the knowledge offered by the base, but that is beside the point.  Ultimately, from an in-universe perspective, it doesn't matter what Cerberus would do with the tech after the Reapers are defeated.  From an in-universe standpoint, things look grim.  It looks like the Reapers will win.  Given that setting, the rational course of action is to be willing to do absolutely *anything* to defeat them, and post victory consequences be damned.  Throwing away something that *for all you know* could be your only chance to get through tomorrow just because there *might* be negative consequences from using it the day after tomorrow simply does not make sense.

This is the point I made regarding the differences in geth logic meaning and of you seeing 1 is less than 2 and me seeing 2 is less than 3: you see surviving the reapers as the most important thing, I see surviving the reapers AND TIM as the most important thing, after all I don't want to survive the reapers only to be melted down and turned into a piece of Reaper-TIM's new backside.  Both are right and both are dependant on how you view the threats we know of.

Essentially, to me the base is a risk, and one that is not proven to be worth it: the only really advanced tech there is the reaper-manufacturing, all their other tech doesn't seem that advanced and EDI has already datamined their computers.  Hell, the geth, possibly some of the most logical thinkers in the galaxy, turned down Sovereign's offer to make their own future, and hold concerns about taking the technology from the reapers as well.  I doubt the reapers would give the collectors something that could hurt them, there's no need, and any technological understanding humanity could gain from it would still be dwarfed by the understanding the reapers have for their own tech, and taking someone on in the field they excel at is just asking for failure.

That's my logic for my Adept Shep, my others are going to take different choices with at least two of them choosing to keep it for various pro-base reasons.