256 réponses à ce sujet

[Fulgrim88]

pelhikano wrote...

Since saving (or destroying) the base is an actual option you get in-game, I'd say it's not "wrong" either way. I doubt Bioware will make ME3 so that it ends with a Reaper victory right after importing your character because you did the "wrong" choice.

True. However, the reason why people doing the "Renegade" choice are concerned is, that the Paragon ending of ME1 turned out to be Win/Win.

While it sounds like either saving the council, loosing the battle (or having much higher casualties), you end up winning the battle AND saving the council, with zero bad consequences.
In retrospective, Bioware pretty much made Renegade the "wrong" decision. And we don't want that to happen with the end of ME2 again.

Most of us are fine with repercussions. Let the base be a powerful tool for Cerberus, let TIM become a threat to many. But let it also be vital for the war effort. Most people who kept the base didn't do so because they trust TIM, but because they believe it a necessary risk to win a war against an enemy that seems unstoppable otherwise.

On the other hand, the Paragon decision should lead to Cerberus being a lesser threat, aliens and other races being more likely to unite, but the tech and knowledge about the Reapers being vastly inferior.

I'd hate to see the base being used by no one but TIM and the main way to defeat the reapers being something else entirely. It wouldn't only be a slap in the face to Renegades (again), but also a slap in the face of storywriting, if the galactic alliance (that was completely oblivious to the threat for the course of 2 games and overally doesn't give a s***) suddenly came up with tech to rival the Reapers and detailed knowledge on how to defeat them, without any evidence or tech to study whatsoever.

(And here i am, argumenting once more:whistle:)

[Sharn01]

Fulgrim88 wrote...

pelhikano wrote...

Since saving (or destroying) the base is an actual option you get in-game, I'd say it's not "wrong" either way. I doubt Bioware will make ME3 so that it ends with a Reaper victory right after importing your character because you did the "wrong" choice.

True. However, the reason why people doing the "Renegade" choice are concerned is, that the Paragon ending of ME1 turned out to be Win/Win.

While it sounds like either saving the council, loosing the battle (or having much higher casualties), you end up winning the battle AND saving the council, with zero bad consequences.
In retrospective, Bioware pretty much made Renegade the "wrong" decision. And we don't want that to happen with the end of ME2 again.

Most of us are fine with repercussions. Let the base be a powerful tool for Cerberus, let TIM become a threat to many. But let it also be vital for the war effort. Most people who kept the base didn't do so because they trust TIM, but because they believe it a necessary risk to win a war against an enemy that seems unstoppable otherwise.

On the other hand, the Paragon decision should lead to Cerberus being a lesser threat, aliens and other races being more likely to unite, but the tech and knowledge about the Reapers being vastly inferior.

I'd hate to see the base being used by no one but TIM and the main way to defeat the reapers being something else entirely. It wouldn't only be a slap in the face to Renegades (again), but also a slap in the face of storywriting, if the galactic alliance (that was completely oblivious to the threat for the course of 2 games and overally doesn't give a s***) suddenly came up with tech to rival the Reapers and detailed knowledge on how to defeat them, without any evidence or tech to study whatsoever.

(And here i am, argumenting once more:whistle:)

If every one made their argument's like you though, there would be very little argueing.  I see a lot of people on this thread making posts as to how it does not matter how many people you kill so long as you get the job done and using real life situation's in an attempt to back up their claim. 

It turns the whole thread in to an argument of morality as opposed to a what benefit/deficit should each of the two choices carry with it in to the next game.

[Fulgrim88]

Sharn01 wrote...
If every one made their argument's like you though, there would be very little argueing.  I see a lot of people on this thread making posts as to how it does not matter how many people you kill so long as you get the job done and using real life situation's in an attempt to back up their claim. 

It turns the whole thread in to an argument of morality as opposed to a what benefit/deficit should each of the two choices carry with it in to the next game.

I've gotta admit that i didn't saw that until a few minutes ago, hence my rather agressive first posts on the last page.

This is the third thread about that topic that i'm participating in, both earlier ones focussing on the outcomes of the decisions, rather than their morality. So i was kinda frustrated by how little had changed. However, this one has a different approach which i think is kind of interesting. So i added my point to the discussion, but otherwise i'm simply interested to see where this one goes.

[FlintlockJazz]

Fulgrim88 wrote...

pelhikano wrote...

Since saving (or destroying) the base is an actual option you get in-game, I'd say it's not "wrong" either way. I doubt Bioware will make ME3 so that it ends with a Reaper victory right after importing your character because you did the "wrong" choice.

True. However, the reason why people doing the "Renegade" choice are concerned is, that the Paragon ending of ME1 turned out to be Win/Win.

While it sounds like either saving the council, loosing the battle (or having much higher casualties), you end up winning the battle AND saving the council, with zero bad consequences.
In retrospective, Bioware pretty much made Renegade the "wrong" decision. And we don't want that to happen with the end of ME2 again.

Most of us are fine with repercussions. Let the base be a powerful tool for Cerberus, let TIM become a threat to many. But let it also be vital for the war effort. Most people who kept the base didn't do so because they trust TIM, but because they believe it a necessary risk to win a war against an enemy that seems unstoppable otherwise.

On the other hand, the Paragon decision should lead to Cerberus being a lesser threat, aliens and other races being more likely to unite, but the tech and knowledge about the Reapers being vastly inferior.

I'd hate to see the base being used by no one but TIM and the main way to defeat the reapers being something else entirely. It wouldn't only be a slap in the face to Renegades (again), but also a slap in the face of storywriting, if the galactic alliance (that was completely oblivious to the threat for the course of 2 games and overally doesn't give a s***) suddenly came up with tech to rival the Reapers and detailed knowledge on how to defeat them, without any evidence or tech to study whatsoever.

(And here i am, argumenting once more:whistle:)

I agree 100%, there should be repercussions for the choices we make and both should have good and bad results, it wouldn't be much of a decision otherwise.

[KnightofPhoenix]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Essentially, to me the base is a risk, and one that is not proven to be worth it: the only really advanced tech there is the reaper-manufacturing, all their other tech doesn't seem that advanced and EDI has already datamined their computers. 

Why do people take reaper-manufacturing lightly? If you know how to build a Reaper, that means you know them inside and out. How is that "only"?

Furthermore, EDI, while examining the Reaper, told you she doesn't know anything about it and that she can only offer speculation as to what its purpose was. The only thing EDI was able to determine is that the Reapers are not machines, but a merge of organics that take the form of a machine via unknown means.
So it's highly unlikely that EDI was able to extract everything useful from the base. Technology needs to be studied and not only examined, which EDI doesn't do.
And let's assume that she did extract everything of value, at least we can determine that by studying the base and see if it's useful or not. Destroying the base on the otherhand is irreversable.

[nitefyre410]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Essentially, to me the base is a risk, and one that is not proven to be worth it: the only really advanced tech there is the reaper-manufacturing, all their other tech doesn't seem that advanced and EDI has already datamined their computers. 

Why do people take reaper-manufacturing lightly? If you know how to build a Reaper, that means you know them inside and out. How is that "only"?

Furthermore, EDI, while examining the Reaper, told you she doesn't know anything about it and that she can only offer speculation as to what its purpose was. The only thing EDI was able to determine is that the Reapers are not machines, but a merge of organics that take the form of a machine via unknown means.
So it's highly unlikely that EDI was able to extract everything useful from the base. Technology needs to be studied and not only examined, which EDI doesn't do.
And let's assume that she did extract everything of value, at least we can determine that by studying the base and see if it's useful or not. Destroying the base on the otherhand is irreversable.

 

While I can not dispute you reasoning and it is very sound, from a pure  strategy standpoint  it makes sense to keep the base. 

But there was this girl name Pandora that i knew once and she was playing with a harmless box... and well it opened and  sh*t hit the fan.  

Still  I  take into account  2 things my distrust of the Illusive man and Craftiness of the Reapers. Having any of there tech could lead to a Trojan horse type of situations...I don;t want be in final battle and  then have them hit the OFF switch and all my weapons start shot duds that would suck. 

[Kerilus]

KoP, your theory is based on the assumption that Cerberus has the capability to study the base without being manipulated by it. All the attempts to do similar things have been proven to either result in failure or limited success with significant cost.

[FlintlockJazz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Essentially, to me the base is a risk, and one that is not proven to be worth it: the only really advanced tech there is the reaper-manufacturing, all their other tech doesn't seem that advanced and EDI has already datamined their computers. 

Why do people take reaper-manufacturing lightly? If you know how to build a Reaper, that means you know them inside and out. How is that "only"?

Furthermore, EDI, while examining the Reaper, told you she doesn't know anything about it and that she can only offer speculation as to what its purpose was. The only thing EDI was able to determine is that the Reapers are not machines, but a merge of organics that take the form of a machine via unknown means.
So it's highly unlikely that EDI was able to extract everything useful from the base. Technology needs to be studied and not only examined, which EDI doesn't do.
And let's assume that she did extract everything of value, at least we can determine that by studying the base and see if it's useful or not. Destroying the base on the otherhand is irreversable.

Not destroying the base could also be irreversible.  you have no guarantee that you will be able to get back in there and nuke it after Cerberus moves in, and even if you do by the time you realise it was a bad choice Cerberus will have already moved out most of the tech if they can to somewhere hidden or at least taken enough data to cause problems. 

Plus, do you really think having the tech really means they will be able to work anything out?  The galaxy has had Mass Relays for millenia, they still haven't worked them out yet, do you really think they'll be able to work something out from the technology at the reaper base?  At least something that doesn't take decades to figure out?  They can use the technology no doubt, but considering that the only use it has been seen to have is to blend humans into a gooey mess and send it to a big skeleton I'm dubious personally. 

If there was any means of working out some weak spot in the reapers from it don't you think they would have put some safeguards in place, like a self-destruct sequence maybe?  Besides, when fighting alien bugs, you should ask yourself what Ripley would do, the answer to which is always "Nuke the site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure!"

[KnightofPhoenix]

nitefyre410 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Essentially, to me the base is a risk, and one that is not proven to be worth it: the only really advanced tech there is the reaper-manufacturing, all their other tech doesn't seem that advanced and EDI has already datamined their computers. 

Why do people take reaper-manufacturing lightly? If you know how to build a Reaper, that means you know them inside and out. How is that "only"?

Furthermore, EDI, while examining the Reaper, told you she doesn't know anything about it and that she can only offer speculation as to what its purpose was. The only thing EDI was able to determine is that the Reapers are not machines, but a merge of organics that take the form of a machine via unknown means.
So it's highly unlikely that EDI was able to extract everything useful from the base. Technology needs to be studied and not only examined, which EDI doesn't do.
And let's assume that she did extract everything of value, at least we can determine that by studying the base and see if it's useful or not. Destroying the base on the otherhand is irreversable.

 

While I can not dispute you reasoning and it is very sound, from a pure  strategy standpoint  it makes sense to keep the base. 

But there was this girl name Pandora that i knew once and she was playing with a harmless box... and well it opened and  sh*t hit the fan.  

Still  I  take into account  2 things my distrust of the Illusive man and Craftiness of the Reapers. Having any of there tech could lead to a Trojan horse type of situations...I don;t want be in final battle and  then have them hit the OFF switch and all my weapons start shot duds that would suck. 

You have good reason to distrust TIM. I don't trust him fully either. But unless you believe that TIM is a Reaper like some threads I read here, then you have no reason to believe that TIM is not going to fight the reapers, which are the bigger threat. Should he turn to be a threat in the future, you can always deal with him later.

About the crafitness of the Reapers. While they are indeed crafty and it's possible that what you said might happen. But if we learned anything from the Protheans is that the Reapers can and have been fooled by their own technology. The Protheans gave the Reapers a huge FU before they die by studying their technology, replicating it (Conduit), altering the signal of the Keepers (Reaper biotech) and altering the signal of the Citadel (also Reaper tech).
Furthermore, by studying a Reaper indepth, one could avoid potential situations like this, for all we know. And we can't really know unless we study the base.

[Captain Crash]

So yeah a tiny chip (the IFF) had a hidden code in it which even EDI couldnt find.



How is using vasts amounts of reaper technology against them going to help humanity when we can even use the basics properly. You know its a bad idea to save the base.

[KnightofPhoenix]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Essentially, to me the base is a risk, and one that is not proven to be worth it: the only really advanced tech there is the reaper-manufacturing, all their other tech doesn't seem that advanced and EDI has already datamined their computers. 

Why do people take reaper-manufacturing lightly? If you know how to build a Reaper, that means you know them inside and out. How is that "only"?

Furthermore, EDI, while examining the Reaper, told you she doesn't know anything about it and that she can only offer speculation as to what its purpose was. The only thing EDI was able to determine is that the Reapers are not machines, but a merge of organics that take the form of a machine via unknown means.
So it's highly unlikely that EDI was able to extract everything useful from the base. Technology needs to be studied and not only examined, which EDI doesn't do.
And let's assume that she did extract everything of value, at least we can determine that by studying the base and see if it's useful or not. Destroying the base on the otherhand is irreversable.

Not destroying the base could also be irreversible.  you have no guarantee that you will be able to get back in there and nuke it after Cerberus moves in, and even if you do by the time you realise it was a bad choice Cerberus will have already moved out most of the tech if they can to somewhere hidden or at least taken enough data to cause problems. 

Plus, do you really think having the tech really means they will be able to work anything out?  The galaxy has had Mass Relays for millenia, they still haven't worked them out yet, do you really think they'll be able to work something out from the technology at the reaper base?  At least something that doesn't take decades to figure out?  They can use the technology no doubt, but considering that the only use it has been seen to have is to blend humans into a gooey mess and send it to a big skeleton I'm dubious personally. 

If there was any means of working out some weak spot in the reapers from it don't you think they would have put some safeguards in place, like a self-destruct sequence maybe?  Besides, when fighting alien bugs, you should ask yourself what Ripley would do, the answer to which is always "Nuke the site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure!"

Keeping the base is at least potentially reversable. Destroyign it isn't.

Cerberus was able to revive a person. Was able to use a Reaper IFF. There is no reason to assume that they can't make the base useful. They have the ressources and the brains to do so. Maybe the full potential of the base takes time to reveal. But there is also the possibility of immediate benefits.
Again, I never assumed that I know. However all your questions, while pertinent, are not enough for me to find destroying the base logical.
About self destruction sequence. Only way to be sure is to study them. Otherwise, speculation.

And from a meta-gaming perspective, I doubt Bioware will make the base useless.

Anyways, gotta go. Cheers.

[FlintlockJazz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Essentially, to me the base is a risk, and one that is not proven to be worth it: the only really advanced tech there is the reaper-manufacturing, all their other tech doesn't seem that advanced and EDI has already datamined their computers. 

Why do people take reaper-manufacturing lightly? If you know how to build a Reaper, that means you know them inside and out. How is that "only"?

Furthermore, EDI, while examining the Reaper, told you she doesn't know anything about it and that she can only offer speculation as to what its purpose was. The only thing EDI was able to determine is that the Reapers are not machines, but a merge of organics that take the form of a machine via unknown means.
So it's highly unlikely that EDI was able to extract everything useful from the base. Technology needs to be studied and not only examined, which EDI doesn't do.
And let's assume that she did extract everything of value, at least we can determine that by studying the base and see if it's useful or not. Destroying the base on the otherhand is irreversable.

Not destroying the base could also be irreversible.  you have no guarantee that you will be able to get back in there and nuke it after Cerberus moves in, and even if you do by the time you realise it was a bad choice Cerberus will have already moved out most of the tech if they can to somewhere hidden or at least taken enough data to cause problems. 

Plus, do you really think having the tech really means they will be able to work anything out?  The galaxy has had Mass Relays for millenia, they still haven't worked them out yet, do you really think they'll be able to work something out from the technology at the reaper base?  At least something that doesn't take decades to figure out?  They can use the technology no doubt, but considering that the only use it has been seen to have is to blend humans into a gooey mess and send it to a big skeleton I'm dubious personally. 

If there was any means of working out some weak spot in the reapers from it don't you think they would have put some safeguards in place, like a self-destruct sequence maybe?  Besides, when fighting alien bugs, you should ask yourself what Ripley would do, the answer to which is always "Nuke the site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure!"

Keeping the base is at least potentially reversable. Destroyign it isn't.

Cerberus was able to revive a person. Was able to use a Reaper IFF. There is no reason to assume that they can't make the base useful. They have the ressources and the brains to do so. Maybe the full potential of the base takes time to reveal. But there is also the possibility of immediate benefits.
Again, I never assumed that I know. However all your questions, while pertinent, are not enough for me to find destroying the base logical.
About self destruction sequence. Only way to be sure is to study them. Otherwise, speculation.

And from a meta-gaming perspective, I doubt Bioware will make the base useless.

Anyways, gotta go. Cheers.

But that's the point, what one person finds logical is illogical to another.  The base is a choice, one that has no real right or wrong answer, just what you believe it to be, as there plusses and minuses that have to be weighed up by each person.  I didn't mean to imply that you had assume, just raising the questions.  As far as I can see it, keeping the base risks Cerberus using the tech to make reapers, TIM does not deny this when asked straight out, and when you have a threat breathing down your neck it can be tempting to the less scrupulous, making a fleet of your own reapers can have benefits after all, but which in my mind ends badly as it gets all out of control. 

[nitefyre410]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Essentially, to me the base is a risk, and one that is not proven to be worth it: the only really advanced tech there is the reaper-manufacturing, all their other tech doesn't seem that advanced and EDI has already datamined their computers. 

Why do people take reaper-manufacturing lightly? If you know how to build a Reaper, that means you know them inside and out. How is that "only"?

Furthermore, EDI, while examining the Reaper, told you she doesn't know anything about it and that she can only offer speculation as to what its purpose was. The only thing EDI was able to determine is that the Reapers are not machines, but a merge of organics that take the form of a machine via unknown means.
So it's highly unlikely that EDI was able to extract everything useful from the base. Technology needs to be studied and not only examined, which EDI doesn't do.
And let's assume that she did extract everything of value, at least we can determine that by studying the base and see if it's useful or not. Destroying the base on the otherhand is irreversable.

 

While I can not dispute you reasoning and it is very sound, from a pure  strategy standpoint  it makes sense to keep the base. 

But there was this girl name Pandora that i knew once and she was playing with a harmless box... and well it opened and  sh*t hit the fan.  

Still  I  take into account  2 things my distrust of the Illusive man and Craftiness of the Reapers. Having any of there tech could lead to a Trojan horse type of situations...I don;t want be in final battle and  then have them hit the OFF switch and all my weapons start shot duds that would suck. 

You have good reason to distrust TIM. I don't trust him fully either. But unless you believe that TIM is a Reaper like some threads I read here, then you have no reason to believe that TIM is not going to fight the reapers, which are the bigger threat. Should he turn to be a threat in the future, you can always deal with him later.

About the crafitness of the Reapers. While they are indeed crafty and it's possible that what you said might happen. But if we learned anything from the Protheans is that the Reapers can and have been fooled by their own technology. The Protheans gave the Reapers a huge FU before they die by studying their technology, replicating it (Conduit), altering the signal of the Keepers (Reaper biotech) and altering the signal of the Citadel (also Reaper tech).
Furthermore, by studying a Reaper indepth, one could avoid potential situations like this, for all we know. And we can't really know unless we study the base.

 

True  could very  well fight him later but lets say we keep the base,  even still there is going to ALOT death and destruction from the  battle with reapers.  So if he steps into power and goes all Darth Sidous , there is not going to be many resources left  to fight him..save his own. He could very well come out  that battle being the most  powerful force in the galaxy.  T.I.M could  very well be using this Reaper threat as means to solidify his own power hold on the galaxy. We have already proven that  Reapers while hard to kill re very killable. That mass relay weapon was on case and point.   

[Fulgrim88]

nitefyre410 wrote...
True  could very  well fight him later but lets say we keep the base,  even still there is going to ALOT death and destruction from the  battle with reapers.  So if he steps into power and goes all Darth Sidous , there is not going to be many resources left  to fight him..save his own. He could very well come out  that battle being the most  powerful force in the galaxy.  T.I.M could  very well be using this Reaper threat as means to solidify his own power hold on the galaxy. We have already proven that  Reapers while hard to kill re very killable. That mass relay weapon was on case and point.  

I guess TIM would love to see these threads. It's incredible what you believe him capable off.


Let's sum things up:

- After two years spent harvesting hundreds of thousands the collectors (who fully understood their technology), where able to create the embryo of a Reaper, that could be basically killed with a pistol.

Remind me again of how TIM will use this asset to become a greater threat than a few thousand fully grown Reapers.


Plus, i don't see TIM getting the lions share of that base at all. So far, he's been probably provided with IFF and Station data by EDI. However, the Normandy barely survived going through that debris field. It's definetely not a place to quickly send in science vessels and transporters stripping that base clean of everything valuable.
Unless the storywriters magically prevent my Shep from telling the Council, they will get as much tech out of that base as TIM. Probably a little less, as they tend to be slow on decisions, but enough to upgrade their force by a reasonable amount. That was the point of keeping the base after all. Renegade doesn't equal Pro-Cerberus and i hope Bioware keeps that in mind

Don't get me wrong here, i definetely support the concept of TIM getting dangerous by that knowledge, but in a smart & meaningful way. Having him build a Reaper fleet of his own, playing the Palpatine would be ridicioulus

Modifié par Fulgrim88, 11 février 2010 - 02:02 .

[Sturmwulfe]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
You speak as if it's impossible to keep the base and have allies at the same time.
I sought a cure for the genophage, am planing to settle the Quarian and geth dispute and enlist both of them into the war, all while preserving the base. Cerberus is not going to reveal it to anyone. It will most likely remain a secret.
Furthermore, Cerberus, being extremily ressourceful and willign to fight the REapers, are a valuable ally. And if we are goign to talk about "unethical allies", then I can point out that every single species you have just listed was responsable for acts that can be seen as "unethical".

It is always a possibility that Cerberus will abduct aliens and use them to create a Reaper. But it's unlikely. We know that million of aliens are required to create a reaper. Cerberus doesn't have the ressources to abduct millions. And even if it did, it would attract too much attention to itself, which is not what a secretive organisation wants.
So the chances of TIM wanting to build a reaper is unlikely.
Assuming that he does seek to do so. If the death of millions leads to the saving of trillions, then the action is justified. Only through meta-gaming can we know that it's unnecessary.

The only thing I agree with. Yes, Cerbrerus is not here to make sure diversity flourishes. Nor is it here to make sure it dies either. It just wants to ensure humanity's interests.
The only way I can destroy the base and not feel bad about myself, is if I was an ardent multiculturalist cosmopolitan who sincerly believes that we can all live together and coexist, despite all historical evidence that points to the contray. Only then would I destroy the base and not support Cerberus. But this is another way of putting ideals over efficiency. I simply can't do it.  

I should have elaborated a bit more. Say the rest of the non-human galactic community finds out Ceberus has this base. Needless to say, your team is pretty pissed off at you for keeping it at the end of the game, but they'll go with your choice because of loyalty. But a pro-human, extremist and very militant organization isn't exactly going to win the support of the rest of the galactic community, especially one that doesn't believe in the Reapers for the most part. They'll just see Ceberus with this potentually dangerous technology that has a chance of being used on their people. I don't think they'll exactly be jumping at the chance to join up with Ceberus. Even if the Reapers show up, they'd probably try to forge their own alliances or even go their own way.

Besides, the thought of a Krogan-baby Reaper is a scary enough reason to blow the place up. Or Hanar. Giant robot Jellyfish monster of doom. The stuff of nightmares.

[pelhikano]

Sturmwulfe wrote...

Or Hanar. Giant robot Jellyfish monster of doom. The stuff of nightmares.

You could get Blasto the Hanar Spectre as a companion to fight that one. It would be epic.

[KevinPage]

Hopefully Bioware is smart and it turns out to be a GOOD thing if you saved it. Like real life, people will disagree with you and think you made a wrong choice, but the bigger picture is that as a leader you know better and can make the tough choices.



Logic would dictate: my whole crew is annoyed that I saved it, so it must be the wrong decision. But if your turn out to be right, you look that much smarter and a better leader for it.



Either way, I hedged my bet and replayed the ending 2X so I have flexibility going forward

[nitefyre410]

 

Fulgrim88 wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...
True  could very  well fight him later but lets say we keep the base,  even still there is going to ALOT death and destruction from the  battle with reapers.  So if he steps into power and goes all Darth Sidous , there is not going to be many resources left  to fight him..save his own. He could very well come out  that battle being the most  powerful force in the galaxy.  T.I.M could  very well be using this Reaper threat as means to solidify his own power hold on the galaxy. We have already proven that  Reapers while hard to kill re very killable. That mass relay weapon was on case and point.  

I guess TIM would love to see these threads. It's incredible what you believe him capable off.


Let's sum things up:

- After two years spent harvesting hundreds of thousands the collectors (who fully understood their technology), where able to create the embryo of a Reaper, that could be basically killed with a pistol.

Remind me again of how TIM will use this asset to become a greater threat than a few thousand fully grown Reapers.


Plus, i don't see TIM getting the lions share of that base at all. So far, he's been probably provided with IFF and Station data by EDI. However, the Normandy barely survived going through that debris field. It's definetely not a place to quickly send in science vessels and transporters stripping that base clean of everything valuable.
Unless the storywriters magically prevent my Shep from telling the Council, they will get as much tech out of that base as TIM. Probably a little less, as they tend to be slow on decisions, but enough to upgrade their force by a reasonable amount. That was the point of keeping the base after all. Renegade doesn't equal Pro-Cerberus and i hope Bioware keeps that in mind

Don't get me wrong here, i definetely support the concept of TIM getting dangerous by that knowledge, but in a smart & meaningful way. Having him build a Reaper fleet of his own, playing the Palpatine would be ridicioulus

 
Well He won't go as Far as Palpatine, I agree but it was  the only person I could think of at the time(sue me for bad analogies.) 

 ,   T.I.M does not have to be strongest going into the Reaper  battle, who ever is the last one standing after the Fallouts of the Reaper is going the most powerful  player in galaxy just by  Default... with the Council and Alliance Leadership and Races  still around but in Ruins.  The Quarins , Krogan and Rachni(if you  saved the queen.) being on the front lines devastated. Yeah the galaxy is alive and kicking but there is huge power   void and guess who is there to fill it... T.I.M...     

[darkdruid117]

Spazticus wrote...

darkdruid117 wrote...

I blew it up on my first go but now that I am on my second play through for the game I plan on keeping it. I have to agree that humans would not be able to study it, but since you now have legion on your side perhaps more geth will follow suite and help out. If this is the case then you have a method of study without the side affects of loosing control.

If I'm not mistaken, the Heretic Geth were effectively indoctrinated, too. Regardless of who dives into this acid pool, voluntary or not, someone's getting burned. If for no other reason than to give TIM a one finger salute, and trust that humanity doesn't need to be turned into smoothies in order to win this war... I incinerated the place. What he'd do with that place after the war, and yeah, I'm assuming we will win, is not a pleasant thought.

True, but if I remember correctly legion (or someone else in the game) said that they were able to adapt and create any needed defense against attacks like this in the future. Still, you have a valid point in terms of the cost to win.

[SirJarenTor]

I destroyed the station.  The Reapers set up their technology as a trap... not necessarily just the Mass Relays, which is simply the most obvious, but simply the existence of Indoctrination demonstrates they have a very solid understanding of the mechanics and limitations of organic life. 

Will the station or reaper larva be built to indoctrinate, when only the Collectors (effectively an organic machine) are the only things there, and the larva is incomplete?  Probably not.  But Harbinger was remoting into the station from somewhere, and he was doing it somehow.  He could almost instantaneously rewrite a Collector of any variety into a glowing biotic shielded and armored Juggernaut (and goddamn was he tough on Insanity with that ridiculously powerful reverse Singularity attack and incinerating followup).  How does he do that?  How did Sovereign (Navarra if you prefer) do his Red Lightning Mojo on Saren and turn him into crazy rocket shooting leaping thing... where did all the shielding come from?

Reaper technology is filled with unknowns... they're dangerous in the extreme.  We know one of the reaper techniques against the Protheans was subtle indoctrination, using these ticking time bombs to infiltrate trusting societies as refugees.  Even the Indoctrinated didn't know what had happened to them.  It's possible that someone working on the station could suffer from this and become a serious problem.  Obviously our current tech level, aside from maybe Genetics is similar to the Collectors, and the Reapers have no reason to leave extensive data useful to us lying around when the Collector General is being remote controlled by Harbinger.

The Collectors themselves are nothing more than a sophisticated organic version of those irritating LOKI Security Mechs.  They have no will of their own, and no purpose but to act as extensions of the Reaper's will.  What could they possibly have that WOULDN'T be a trap planted there in the last moments of the Collector General's last moments?  How can we be sure that what's left behind by the radiation pulse won't permit Harbinger to continue remoting into the station?

Before Shephard, the only known success against the Reapers was by the Protheans... and their success was only a posthumous delaying action.  A Novel approach to killing them needs to be taken.  Something that the Reapers haven't already developed and are using in their genocide.  The Reapers wanted to impose order on the chaos of organic evolution... because it made the organics easier to harvest.  Chaos, unpredictability... those are the only weapons effective against super beings who have had their way like clockwork for millenia. 

So why keep the base when the gains are likely limited, and the risks are high?  Even if you wouldn't necessarily trust TIM with the tech (and while I personally would not), it means that the high risk is going to be focused on the organization that is most effective at fighting the Reapers thus far.  While I personally can't condone a lot of what Cerberus has done, I also can't afford to put them in a high loss scenario despite them thinking they can do so.  After all, TIM said they lost contact with the team on the derelict Reaper and didn't send anyone else because the risk was too high.  That's a dead reaper, abandoned in the gravity well of a brown dwarf.  A base of operations that was the staging area for a reaper assault on the galaxy is not going to go by unnoticed.  Exposue of Cerberus to direct Reaper retaliation is a very bad idea.  What harm could an indoctrinated sleeper agent do if allowed to return to Cerberus operations?  Even if not readdmitted and just abandoned to their fate... what do they know that could cripple the rest of us?

[Katarian]

KevinPage wrote...

Hopefully Bioware is smart and it turns out to be a GOOD thing if you saved it. Like real life, people will disagree with you and think you made a wrong choice, but the bigger picture is that as a leader you know better and can make the tough choices.

Well based on how much effect your choices in ME1 had on ME2 it's rather irrelevant. It'll be maybe a couple of lines in some dialogue, or an email on your private terminal. Personelly I blew it up on both my Paragon and Renegade games, screwing over the Illusive Man was just so satisfying, much more then any benefit you might get from keeping the base.

[ShadyKat]

Cerberus and the Illusive Man are evil! I don't get why people cant wrap their minds around this.

[Tamcia]

Everything connected with Reapers is poison. The derelict ship corrupted the scientist minds. The collectors are a joke made by reapers, just a leftover of protheans. Thousands of people died in that place, and I know I'm correct - Cerberus would continue experiments with humans and other races that were done in that base (look at next novel, where a guy is implanted reaper tech, as a revenge, because he saved his daughter from Illusive man). Also tech would not be shared among races, but for Cerberus only, leading to Cerberus dominating galaxy. Not only would this harmful to other races, but this would control humans as in ultimate dictatorship (at least I assume so from info about cerberus, Illusive man did say - Strength for cerberus is strength for humanity, Cerberus is humanity, or smth along those lines).



Reaper goal - lead technology in a predetermined path, which was done with "mass effect" same with collector base.



Because end does not justify the means.



Ultimately - " I will not let fear compromise who I am". Said Shephard before the big bang.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@nitefyre410
Let's assume that TIM indeed wants to be like Sidious (which I doubt). Still whatever he does will be preferrable to the Reapers exterminating everyone.
Only through meta-gaming can you be objectively sure that you don't need him to win. Just like I could know that I don't need anyone in order to win really. I can get all my alies killed, let the krogans die, let the Quarrian and geth kill each other and exterminate the rachni and I can still win. (well presumabely, unless Me3 makes it impossible, which I doubt).

From in-universe perspective, you can't know. So it's only logical that you acquire as much help as you can. TIM is willing and capable of helping, regardless of his motives.

@Sturmwulf

That's why I said it's very unlikely that Cerberus will reveal itself or the base to anyone, not even the alliance, until maybe the Reaper threat is clear and obvious to everyone.

And a Krogan Reaper would be something. A Hanar reaper is overkill.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 février 2010 - 04:26 .

[Gill Kaiser]

Saving the base isn't wrong, it's ethically, morally dubious sure, but that's not the main concern. The fact is that you're giving a potential source of devistating technology to a ruthless terrorist. Sure he might use it to save humanity, but he won't stop there. Getting the job done regardless of the consequences is the definition of Renegade.