16 réponses à ce sujet

[Andarthiel_Demigod]

That's a good list and I wholeheartedly agree, cliches like that should be avoided. Game writers should get more creative.

[Squiggles1334]

Hmm, Planescape: Torment pretty much had all of those to some degree or another (except perhaps #1, even then possibly debatable).



Therefore, article = DISAGREED.

[Rubbish Hero]

Modifié par Rubbish Hero, 11 février 2010 - 04:50 .

[Statulos]

Reasons like the above stated make me love Planescape: Torment even more. Just like good wine, that game was amazing upon release and still is.

[Remmirath]

I think it's not so much about having them at all as how they're employed. If a game does interesting things with the cliches, it's fine. If you can predict the entire plot from the moment you start playing the game? Not so much.

Any of them are bothersome if they aren't well explained and/or interesting.

[MerinTB]

Unfortunately, most of those tropes precede video games by centuries.

They are tropes of storytelling.



While sometimes being the janitor (Space Quest), some random comic book loving nerd (Noctropolis), or just one poor unlucky bastard tasked with searching the wastelands for a water chip you've no reason to believe you ever find (Fallout) -

the Hero's Journey (thank you, Joseph Campbell) is as classic as story telling get, and archetypes work for a reason - heck, even the above mentioned you may not have started out the chosen one in any way, shape or form (well, I guess you were "chosen" in Fallout, but that's like being chosen to be a frontline infantry in a war or to buy time for your comrades to escape) you still rise to being a savior.



It's often stated by many that "why do we always have to save the world?" or what not, but that's from people who've played a dozen games or some such. Every new game (or movie or story) that follows the archetypes or the established formulas is someone's first exposure to such things. And also, most people (especially those who play video games) don't get to save the world or be rich or kill things for a living, so getting to do those things in a game is a draw - being the hero or the savior is a draw as its something most people can never be.



What boggles MY mind is why so many people love stuff like the Sims or Guitar Hero or any fishing, hunting or sport game - those ARE things most people can really do in real life. I fail to see escapism in escaping to your regular life. ( I know there are other reasons to such games, and I've enjoyed Sims now and again, but the point is there.)



ALL THAT SAID -



some things do become so overused that they, at least temporarily, become taboo themes or tropes. "It was all just a dream" being the most obvious. Comic book characters endlessly coming back from the dead being one that looks to be such soon.

[FollowTheGourd]

Er, I wouldn't say Planescape: Torment had any of those points in abundance... and couldn't really be used to argue against the article - not that it has a lot going for it that hasn't been mentioned before. The Nameless One isn't really out to save the multiverse, and unlike PS:T, boring stories will still be boring whether or not they're chock full of cliches - it's just another way of saying you've heard the same story a dozen times and they've added little to nothing of value to it (e.g., "wow, what ancient evil do I have to stop this time?").

As far as amnesia in PS:T goes, I'd say it was used well and somewhat essential to the plot or ( *vague spoiler alert* ) you could have gone straight back to the T.O. - and assumably at your full, previous power. You also had to deal with the actions of your previous incarnations. Plus it created an urgency to solve your problem because it was only going to get worse (storywise anyway).

Modifié par FollowTheGourd, 11 février 2010 - 07:05 .

[Squiggles1334]

What? Seriously?

*spoilers for those who haven't played yet*






5. The Transcendent One - Not revealed until about the second half/last third of the story as it unfolds.

4. The Planes have been suffering ever since the first incarnation's separation from his mortality, he will tell you this specifically. It is also something that can be mentioned in the confrontation with The Transcendent One. I haven't played the game in a while so I don't remember where else this point comes up, but it is there, even if it wasn't the original quest motivation for The Nameless One (heck, he still doesn't have to care about that by the end if he doesn't want to).

3. The Nameless One is obviously the only one who can see this quest to the very end since it centers around him in the first place. And he has a number of traits that set him apart from the average NPC. No, he's not specifically mentioned in some ancient prophecy, but I don't think that was the point of item #3. The point is that he didn't choose the quest, the quest chose him for unique reasons.

2. Forgotten past. Don't think this needs to be belabored.

1. Probably not, but hey, The Transcendent One sure does brood a lot in that Fortress of Regret.





*end spoilers*

[Squiggles1334]

MerinTB wrote...

Comic book characters endlessly coming back from the dead being one that looks to be such soon.

Marvel's fault.

[FollowTheGourd]

Squiggles1334 wrote...

What? Seriously?

*spoilers for those who haven't played yet*






5. The Transcendent One - Not revealed until about the second half/last third of the story as it unfolds.

So... a revelation. If you don't just go by the title of point #5, the T.O. wasn't exactly lying in wait to unleash itself - if anything he wanted to remain hidden from TNO, who being nameless was harder to find anyway. He sent the shades out to hunt you down throughout the game - although conveniently they were always one step behind most of the time . And I don't think you first see him until he fights Ravel, and then you don't really know what he is for sure until near the end - IIRC.

4. The Planes have been suffering ever since the first incarnation's separation from his mortality, he will tell you this specifically. It is also something that can be mentioned in the confrontation with The Transcendent One. I haven't played the game in a while so I don't remember where else this point comes up, but it is there, even if it wasn't the original quest motivation for The Nameless One (heck, he still doesn't have to care about that by the end if he doesn't want to).

I don't recall the multiverse being in any grave danger of being destroyed or similar - the Blood War will go on as it always had and others will continue to suffer in other ways. I could be wrong, but I thought I recalled them saying that keeping the demons and devils locked in eternal conflict wasn't actually such a bad thing for the planes - keeping them preoccupied. Sure there's the whole somebody else dies to fuel TNO's immortality, and maybe some other abstract things - but the multiverse's suffering wasn't forefront, but rather the suffering of you of your companions.

3. The Nameless One is obviously the only one who can see this quest to the very end since it centers around him in the first place. And he has a number of traits that set him apart from the average NPC. No, he's not specifically mentioned in some ancient prophecy, but I don't think that was the point of item #3. The point is that he didn't choose the quest, the quest chose him for unique reasons.

But recall that he sought out immortality himself; it's his personal quest to begin with. I suppose being so evil originally helped set him apart from others,  but is average Joe Schlubb ever going to take on divas, demons, and so on... or always get ripped apart by the first Black Abishai he looks at the wrong way.

2. Forgotten past. Don't think this needs to be belabored.

Why not? PS:T wasn't just full of "Dur, what's a Tiefling? I forgot my past you see." It was integral to the plot.

Modifié par FollowTheGourd, 11 février 2010 - 03:20 .

[Hayllee]

I completely agree with "The Chosen One" thing.

[Statulos]

Squiggles1334 wrote...

What? Seriously?

*spoilers for those who haven't played yet*






5. The Transcendent One - Not revealed until about the second half/last third of the story as it unfolds.

4. The Planes have been suffering ever since the first incarnation's separation from his mortality, he will tell you this specifically. It is also something that can be mentioned in the confrontation with The Transcendent One. I haven't played the game in a while so I don't remember where else this point comes up, but it is there, even if it wasn't the original quest motivation for The Nameless One (heck, he still doesn't have to care about that by the end if he doesn't want to).

3. The Nameless One is obviously the only one who can see this quest to the very end since it centers around him in the first place. And he has a number of traits that set him apart from the average NPC. No, he's not specifically mentioned in some ancient prophecy, but I don't think that was the point of item #3. The point is that he didn't choose the quest, the quest chose him for unique reasons.

2. Forgotten past. Don't think this needs to be belabored.

1. Probably not, but hey, The Transcendent One sure does brood a lot in that Fortress of Regret.





*end spoilers*

Actually, the part I liked best about the Nameless One is the implied and very subtle relation he has with the Lady of Pain. You never get to know what´s the deal with her but from my understanding, she´s scared of him and that says "bad juju" really loud.

[GnusmasTHX]

Gordon Freeman doesn't really fit the Chosen One category.



If he were considered the Chosen One, then NO protagonist is exempt, at least with how the story has developed so far with the G-Man. He happens to be the right guy in the wrong places.



It's not his fault he's practically been deified by the slave-race of aliens and the humans he's saved, or at least Messianic-status. But these happened AFTER he did these things.



Gordon's only real advantage is his HEV suit, which is no better than body armor, and an unbreakable crowbar.

[FollowTheGourd]

Nothing necessarily wrong with having a Chosen One. But usually it's just a sign of lazy writing instead of trying to come up with a more interesting way to integrate the character into the story. In Dune, take the plots and intrigue behind the Bene Gesserit and the Kwisatz Haderach (almost synonymous with Chosen One - selective breeding program, or ancient prophesy - same diff).

Modifié par FollowTheGourd, 12 février 2010 - 12:00 .