104 réponses à ce sujet

[Br0th3rGr1mm]

Kim Stolz wrote...

Those are some of the hardest persuades in the game.So unfortunately for some people they aren't going to be able to get them without being completely renegade or completely paragon. Now, trying not to spoil anything for anyone, some persuades are easier if you go paragon and some are easier if you go renegade. This was done on purpose story wise so people would have different experiances as they played. They are possible to do just very difficult.

Can we get a clear answer to this:

Do any of these "harder choices" disregard some or all of the passive persuade bonus from our class skill level?  That would explain NOT being able to select the choices when you APPEAR to have 100% due to your class bonus.  Just asking because it makes NO sense that a full bar cannot make the selection otherwise.

[Sovereign z]

Can someone please help us answer this question, or make more clear to us. If Bioware won't look at this I'll make a video of it to show what's going on.

[The_mango55]

Unless the tali/legion fight takes over 165% renegade, it's bugged.



I have 95% renegade and Destroyer passive skill maxed and the renegade option is still greyed out. I can, however, immediately tell Legion that I lied to Tali to get his loyalty back.

[Sovereign z]

I'm going to be the annoying guy that bumps this thread until we get an answer. I really love the series and its a shame that if I don't have a high enough paragon/renegade score it won't let me resolve the situation.

[Ackillez]

The_mango55 wrote...

Unless the tali/legion fight takes over 165% renegade, it's bugged.

I have 95% renegade and Destroyer passive skill maxed and the renegade option is still greyed out. I can, however, immediately tell Legion that I lied to Tali to get his loyalty back.

The amount of renegade/paragon points shown in the bar actually takes your current level of your passive class skill into account. If you buy a skill retraining and leave the points unspent for a bit you will be ablt to see the base amount of points you have. So if the bar shows 95%, and you have the destroyer skill (+70% renegade) then your actual level is about 55-60%.

[Sovereign z]

Ackillez wrote...

The_mango55 wrote...

Unless the tali/legion fight takes over 165% renegade, it's bugged.

I have 95% renegade and Destroyer passive skill maxed and the renegade option is still greyed out. I can, however, immediately tell Legion that I lied to Tali to get his loyalty back.

The amount of renegade/paragon points shown in the bar actually takes your current level of your passive class skill into account. If you buy a skill retraining and leave the points unspent for a bit you will be ablt to see the base amount of points you have. So if the bar shows 95%, and you have the destroyer skill (+70% renegade) then your actual level is about 55-60%.

The problem is it works for some people. People keep saying you need the special skill maxed out but it doesn't seem to work. I'm just having trouble figuring out if its bugged, or theirs a system to it I'm not getting.

[Policyofnoreturn]

Did people have the same problem on ME1 imports or just with NG+? If the latter it may be an insectoid crawler due to some sort of initialization/level-scaling issue.

Modifié par Policyofnoreturn, 11 février 2010 - 09:16 .

[Ackillez]

Sovereign z wrote...

Ackillez wrote...

I'm 100% certain the Jack/Miranda situation is easier to solve with renegade than paragon. Case in point being my first playthrough, I had a higher paragon than renegade score when their fight came up, but still the paragon option was greyed out while the renegade was available. Not completely certain the Tali/Legion situation is the other way around (paragon easier than renegade) but it would make sense; personally I recall being able to use the paragon option but not the renegade though the two bars were on similiar levels (but the paragon being slightly higher).

It's also my experience that persuasion difficulty is scaled by level. I haven't tested it extensively but from replaying different missions in different order I have a feeling this is the case.

So my theory is as follows:

1. All red and blue dialogue options have a base renegade/paragon score requirement.

2. In situations where both paragon and renegade dialogue options are available, the base requirements can be different. As an example, in the dialogue where you intervene in the fight between Jack and Miranda, the base paragon requirement of the blue option is higher than the base renegade requirement of the red option.

3. These base required scores are modified by certain external factors, level being the most likely but possibly also difficulty or other things.

My theory is that the most difficult persuasion checks (like solving the Miranda/Jack fight with a paragon line) have base requirements so high that the final required score (modified by level and possibly other things) can potentially be higher than a full bar of paragon or renegade. This might be intentional or unintentional from Bioware's side; there's also a possibility that the game measures paragon/renegade scores above 'full bar' and that you might need, say, 110% for the most difficult checks (which is certainly obtainable, if possible). The reason people are having difficulties on NG+ is that you get harder requirements for being high level (most NG+ characters should be lvl 30 for the majority of the playthrough) while you don't retain your paragon/renegade scores.

Interesting statement. Everyone seems to have the problem with MIranda/Jack, but I was able to have both the paragon and renegade option, even though I had an extremely high renegade score and low paragon.

I'm at loss to explain that. It doesn't fit into my theory, unless you were quite low level and had been meticulous in gathering paragon/renegade. Personally, at that point both my paragon and renegade bars were around half-full IIRC, with the paragon slightly higher, yet the paragon option being greyed out.  It seems evidently clear to me though that the requirements for passing renegade and paragon checks are not static like in ME1, but varies situationally depending on certain modifiers. I'm personally convinced player level is one of the factors affecting the difficulty, but the reality could be more complex.

What I'd like to see going forth is two things: First, could someone who have had the experience of being in a situation where 100% paragon/renegade isn't enough to unlock the blue/red dialogue option make a short video showing their level, skills, p/r bars both modified by skills and unmodified (do a skill retrain to reset skills), and of course the situation where the relevant dialogue is impossible. This would allow us to verify the assumption that having a p/r bar that appears full is not sufficient to pass all p/r checks.
Second, probably more productive, could a dev chime in about the details of the game mechanics here? Specifically I'm personally curious about what modifies the base p/r requirements of a dialogue check.

[Ackillez]

Sovereign z wrote...

Ackillez wrote...

The_mango55 wrote...

Unless the tali/legion fight takes over 165% renegade, it's bugged.

I have 95% renegade and Destroyer passive skill maxed and the renegade option is still greyed out. I can, however, immediately tell Legion that I lied to Tali to get his loyalty back.

The amount of renegade/paragon points shown in the bar actually takes your current level of your passive class skill into account. If you buy a skill retraining and leave the points unspent for a bit you will be ablt to see the base amount of points you have. So if the bar shows 95%, and you have the destroyer skill (+70% renegade) then your actual level is about 55-60%.

The problem is it works for some people. People keep saying you need the special skill maxed out but it doesn't seem to work. I'm just having trouble figuring out if its bugged, or theirs a system to it I'm not getting.

I was just pointing out how having a 95% renegade bar means that your modified renegade score is 95%, not 165%, and as such this experience is insufficient to confirm that there are potentially 'impossible' p/r checks present in the game.

[Sovereign z]

Ackillez wrote...

Sovereign z wrote...

Ackillez wrote...

I'm 100% certain the Jack/Miranda situation is easier to solve with renegade than paragon. Case in point being my first playthrough, I had a higher paragon than renegade score when their fight came up, but still the paragon option was greyed out while the renegade was available. Not completely certain the Tali/Legion situation is the other way around (paragon easier than renegade) but it would make sense; personally I recall being able to use the paragon option but not the renegade though the two bars were on similiar levels (but the paragon being slightly higher).

It's also my experience that persuasion difficulty is scaled by level. I haven't tested it extensively but from replaying different missions in different order I have a feeling this is the case.

So my theory is as follows:

1. All red and blue dialogue options have a base renegade/paragon score requirement.

2. In situations where both paragon and renegade dialogue options are available, the base requirements can be different. As an example, in the dialogue where you intervene in the fight between Jack and Miranda, the base paragon requirement of the blue option is higher than the base renegade requirement of the red option.

3. These base required scores are modified by certain external factors, level being the most likely but possibly also difficulty or other things.

My theory is that the most difficult persuasion checks (like solving the Miranda/Jack fight with a paragon line) have base requirements so high that the final required score (modified by level and possibly other things) can potentially be higher than a full bar of paragon or renegade. This might be intentional or unintentional from Bioware's side; there's also a possibility that the game measures paragon/renegade scores above 'full bar' and that you might need, say, 110% for the most difficult checks (which is certainly obtainable, if possible). The reason people are having difficulties on NG+ is that you get harder requirements for being high level (most NG+ characters should be lvl 30 for the majority of the playthrough) while you don't retain your paragon/renegade scores.

Interesting statement. Everyone seems to have the problem with MIranda/Jack, but I was able to have both the paragon and renegade option, even though I had an extremely high renegade score and low paragon.

I'm at loss to explain that. It doesn't fit into my theory, unless you were quite low level and had been meticulous in gathering paragon/renegade. Personally, at that point both my paragon and renegade bars were around half-full IIRC, with the paragon slightly higher, yet the paragon option being greyed out.  It seems evidently clear to me though that the requirements for passing renegade and paragon checks are not static like in ME1, but varies situationally depending on certain modifiers. I'm personally convinced player level is one of the factors affecting the difficulty, but the reality could be more complex.

What I'd like to see going forth is two things: First, could someone who have had the experience of being in a situation where 100% paragon/renegade isn't enough to unlock the blue/red dialogue option make a short video showing their level, skills, p/r bars both modified by skills and unmodified (do a skill retrain to reset skills), and of course the situation where the relevant dialogue is impossible. This would allow us to verify the assumption that having a p/r bar that appears full is not sufficient to pass all p/r checks.
Second, probably more productive, could a dev chime in about the details of the game mechanics here? Specifically I'm personally curious about what modifies the base p/r requirements of a dialogue check.

That's why I'm so confused about the situation. I know in another thread someone said he had 100% renegade and still didn't get the option for the Tali/Legion fight.  I keep wondering if their is something your supposed to do before Legion's loyalty, or save it for after the collector mission. 

[TAJ4Life]

how did you get them 2 to fight?? ive played the game like 3 times and not had that.

[mp84]

TAJ4Life wrote...

how did you get them 2 to fight?? ive played the game like 3 times and not had that.

Just do Tali's and Legion's loyalty missions, after the last one you do, the confrontation should pop up. It seems to be pretty automatic.

As for me, I was able to use my renegade which was at 100% no problems in my playthrough.

[_Lasko]

Deleted. after seeing the GM's answer I guess it don't matter.

Modifié par _Lasko, 12 mars 2010 - 08:34 .

[_Lasko]

Kim Stolz wrote...

Those are some of the hardest persuades in the game.So unfortunately for some people they aren't going to be able to get them without being completely renegade or completely paragon. Now, trying not to spoil anything for anyone, some persuades are easier if you go paragon and some are easier if you go renegade. This was done on purpose story wise so people would have different experiances as they played. They are possible to do just very difficult.

It stops me from ever playing renagade again. That one fight ruins the whole game if you want everyone to be loyal/live.
Add to that, it's at the end of the game so if you get one to many paragon points your still screwed out of 25+ hours of game time.
Lame

[Ieldra]

HBC Dresden wrote...

so wait, in me1, you could be paragon and renegade, as opposed to one or the other, like you having to be all darkside or good in kotor as one subtracts the other. me1 was all about being able to be both. but in me2, we have to sway one way or the other to be absolutely persuasive in that alignment?

That's not true. If you play mixed alignment, usually in some conversations one side will be greyed out. In the Tali/Legion fight, the Paragon choice has a much lower Paragon requirement than the Renegade choice's Renegade requirement, so if you play 90% Ren, 70% Par both options will be greyed out, but if you play 90% Par 70% Ren you will be able to use the Paragon option.

The requirements also change as the game progresses. I believe it's some sort of ratio, something like a fraction of all Paragon or Renegade points you could possibly have at this point. Since the maximum points you can get are more than a full bar, it's possible that this results in an impossible choice, if the software forgets to cap the requirement at 100% of the bar.

All this means choices are quite te a lot easier for things early in the game. The Legion/Tali conflict is hard because it almost always appears late in the game.

Anyway, I always play mixed alignment, and I usually have some greyed-out choices, but in loyalty conflicts there was always one choice enabled.

Edit:
If you do Miranda's loyalty mission and Jack's loyalty mission both as early as possible (no NG+), you will most probably  be able to use both the paragon and the renegade options to resolve their conflict.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 12 mars 2010 - 09:16 .

[yummysoap]

Kim Stolz wrote...

Those are some of the hardest persuades in the game.So unfortunately for some people they aren't going to be able to get them without being completely renegade or completely paragon. Now, trying not to spoil anything for anyone, some persuades are easier if you go paragon and some are easier if you go renegade. This was done on purpose story wise so people would have different experiances as they played. They are possible to do just very difficult.

YOU LIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sometimes on a playthrough with 100% Paragon or Renegade I can't make decisions that I was able to on other playthroughs with 50% Paragon or Renegade.

[Meglivorn]

I don't know about new game+ becouse I run the first such game now (and only for fraps, more convinient this way). But on normal game I had around 80% paragon when the loyalty fight came, and solved both of them easely.

Since some of my friends had problems with it even with more paragon/renegade, I think its not just about the score, maybe also counts how long you made with them in the dialogs. Even before the loyelty quests, the characters clearly ease up in dialog after dialog, so I think it's a factor too.
(of couse this is all just speculation).

Modifié par Meglivorn, 12 mars 2010 - 10:03 .

[Big I]

I haven't read the previous pages except for OP, but I've seen this topic pop up several times. It's explained by devs here:

http://social.biowar...97668/3#1429364

Basically, it's way easier to paragon Tali and Legion or renegade Miranda and Jack than it is to do the opposite. If you're having problems doing this on a ME2 import but you had no trouble on a ME import, it's because the ME import gives you bonus paragon and renegade points which made it possible. Those bonus points vanish in the ME2 import. So, persuade system fail.

Modifié par LookingGlass93, 12 mars 2010 - 10:13 .

[Meglivorn]

I don't think it's a failure. More I think there should be situations can be solved only as paragon or renegade but not the other. Sometimes being nice is just don't work, and sometimes you can't solve things by being jerk.

[Big I]

The failure is in removing choice from a persons playthrough. In order to get enough renegade or paragon points to resolve both conflicts, you essentially have to make 100% renegade or paragon choices, unless you import from ME. So, too bad if a renegade wants to get that weapons dealer arrested in Conrad's mission, or those paragons who want to gun down Elnora. The persuade system disincentivises you from role-playing Shepard the way you want.

Edit: Or, in my case, from ever playing a ME2 import.

Modifié par LookingGlass93, 12 mars 2010 - 10:42 .

[Alratan]

LookingGlass93, reading the previous pages would have allowed you to glean that sometimes resolving the the conversation is impossible, regardless of how much score you have and which mastery skill you have taken.

The fact that having such high renegade/paragon requirements cuts down on being able to roleplay properly without being an inferior character is another matter, albiet an important one in and of itself.

Modifié par Alratan, 12 mars 2010 - 10:42 .

[Big I]

Alratan wrote...

LookingGlass93, reading the previous pages would have allowed you to glean that sometimes resolving the the conversation is impossible, regardless of how much score you have and which mastery skill you have taken.

The fact that having such high renegade/paragon requirements cuts down on being able to roleplay properly without being an inferior character is another matter, albiet an important one in and of itself.

Sorry not to have read the entire thread, but I believe this is addressed in the thread I linked to. My understanding is resolving Tali and Legion renegade or Miranda and Jack paragon is possible with an ME Import; I've certainly never had a problem paragoning Miranda and Jack with such an import, and I've seen youtube videos of Shepard renegading Tali and Legion.

Edit: And now having read the entire thread, the only thing that I missed was the possibility of a ME2 import having higher persuade thresholds than playing without importing, which could possibly be accounted for by the vanishing paragon and renegade points from a ME character; the thresholds remain the same, you simply have less paragon or renegade points to work with.

Modifié par LookingGlass93, 12 mars 2010 - 10:58 .

[DiatribeEQ]

100% Paragon. No issues. Guess it pays to be a good guy, eh?



Seriously though, not sure why you'd have a problem.

[Meglivorn]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

The failure is in removing choice from a persons playthrough. In order to get enough renegade or paragon points to resolve both conflicts, you essentially have to make 100% renegade or paragon choices, unless you import from ME. So, too bad if a renegade wants to get that weapons dealer arrested in Conrad's mission, or those paragons who want to gun down Elnora. The persuade system disincentivises you from role-playing Shepard the way you want.

Edit: Or, in my case, from ever playing a ME2 import.

As said, it IS right to have conflicts that needs to be really one or another.
BUT!
Me1 importd doesn't give you ~20% paragon bonus. Not that much, I'm sure of that. Still, I was able to resolve both conflicts. I was worried about the Miranda/Jack becouse it was relatively early but didn't feel right to hold on more so tried it. And solves no problem (and wasn't even near to 100, at that time even 80% paragon. Of course I had maxed out the class skill (gives bonus) and talked to them as much as they let me.

[Ackillez]

DiatribeEQ wrote...

100% Paragon. No issues. Guess it pays to be a good guy, eh?

Seriously though, not sure why you'd have a problem.

Lol, resolving it with paragon is a walk in the park...I had sufficient paragon to resolve it with that with a full renegade meter on the side. Doesn't change things. System has become horribly stupid.

Modifié par Ackillez, 12 mars 2010 - 11:54 .