335 réponses à ce sujet

[Pacifien]

Did a playthrough where I left loyals Kasumi, Tali, and Mordin to hold the line with unloyals Samara and Garrus. It confirmed that Garrus will die before Samara, which was something from the Game Informer article that I didn't actually doubt. But what I'm trying to figure out is if Garrus's defense score is higher than Samara's, and setting up a hold the line group to test this is a bit trickier. With unloyals Zaeed and Garrus, Garrus dies. With unloyals Zaeed and Samara, Samara dies. So no help there. Going to add loyal Jack to the party, see if she makes a difference.

Was getting really tired of killing the human reaper today until I realized I didn't have to keep testing this on Insanity difficulty. It's surprising just how easy Normal difficulty is after not playing it for months.

[William e]

I did jack holding the field and made it thru with not losing anyone, went on easy, because I been thru this so many times now and just wanted to see if my idea was true, it is only when i have miranda holding the field and it is always a woman who dies?

[Pacifien]

For SCIENCE!
Okay, so if you've seen the June 2010 Game Informer article, you've seen the order in which the squadmates die while they hold the line for you at the end of the suicide mission. Garrus < Samara < Legion < Thane < Zaeed < Grunt. But wait, hasn't everyone always mentioned that your three heavy hitters for holding the line were Garrus, Grunt, and Zaeed? So why is Garrus dying before Samara, Legion, and Thane?

So I theorized there were two different lists.
1) the order in which squadmates die
2) the order of their defense scores

And based on this theory, I figured Garrus might die before Samara, Legion and Thane, but his defense score was still higher. But I had to test it. Which is not easy, but I do it for science. And some obsessive completism thing.

I ran three scenarios starting around the time where I need someone to hold a biotic shield, but four elements were the same for each scenario.
1) Thane was already dead because I hadn't upgraded the Normandy's weapons. Incidentally, Normandy's original weapons are laaaaaaame. Thanix Cannon for the win.
2) Jacob had died in the vents.
3) Jack, Kasumi, Mordin, and Tali were loyal. Garrus, Grunt, Legion, Miranda, Samara, and Zaeed were not.
4) No one ever gets sent back with the crew.

Scenario 1
1) Samara holds the biotic shield while Miranda and Zaeed are in my squad. Jack led the distraction team. Zaeed gets taken by the seeker swarms (Miranda is never taken unless you mod it) while Jack dies leading the distraction team.
2) I take Miranda and Legion with me to the final battle, leaving loyals Kasumi, Mordin, and Tali with unloyals Garrus, Grunt, and Samara. Unloyals always die before loyals.
Result: Garrus died holding the line, thus proving he does die before Samara.

Scenario 2
1) Miranda holds the biotic shield while Jack and Legion are in my squad. Samara leads the distraction team. I've gathered that, aside from when Miranda is on the squad, whoever is actually taken by the seeker swarms is a bit of a crapshoot. I figured either Jack was going to bite it or I'd have to take her with me to the final battle in place of Legion. Jack did get taken. Samara died leading the distraction team.
2) I take Miranda and Legion with me to the final battle, leaving loyals Kasumi, Mordin, and Tali with unloyals Garrus, Grunt, and Zaeed.
Result: No one dies holding the line, showing the Garrus/Grunt/Zaeed combination makes for a stronger defense than Garrus/Grunt/Samara.

Scenario 3
1) Samara holds the biotic shield while Miranda and Garrus are in my squad. Jack leads the distraction team. Garrus gets taken by the seeker swarms and Jack dies leading the other team.
2) I take Miranda and Legion with me to the final battle, leaving loyals Kasumi, Mordin, and Tali with unloyals Grunt, Samara and Zaeed.
Result: Samara dies holding the line, showing that the Grunt/Samara/Zaeed combination makes for a weaker defense than Garrus/Grunt/Zaeed.

Conclusion: Garrus dies before Samara, but Garrus is a better defender than Samara. I suspect he's a better defender than Thane, but I'd have to go a bit further back in my save games so I can get the weapon upgrade to allow Thane to participate in my experiment here. I think I've had enough suicide runs for the day, though.

[Pacifien]

William e wrote...
I did jack holding the field and made it thru with not losing anyone, went on easy, because I been thru this so many times now and just wanted to see if my idea was true, it is only when i have miranda holding the field and it is always a woman who dies?

Jack and Samara/Morinth will be able to hold the biotic shield if they're loyal and you'll never lose anyone.

Miranda, even if she's loyal, cannot hold the biotic shield long enough and someone is going to die. As far as I know, the one taken by the seeker swarms is random.

The only time it's not random is if Miranda is in your squad while an unloyal Jack, unloyal Samara, Jacob, or Thane is holding the biotic shield. Miranda never gets taken by the seeker swarms, it's always the other squadmate.

[jlb524]

Pacifien wrote...

Miranda, even if she's loyal, cannot hold the biotic shield long enough and someone is going to die. As far as I know, the one taken by the seeker swarms is random.

I think there might be a heirarchy.  For example, Miranda can't ever be taken by the swarms, so she would be at the top of the 'seeker swarm kill' list, meaning she will never die no matter who is in the party.  I tried it with Jacob/Grunt a few times and the swarms always took Grunt, so I assume Jacob is higher on this heirarchy than Grunt.

I could be wrong, of course.

[Ecael]

jlb524 wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Miranda, even if she's loyal, cannot hold the biotic shield long enough and someone is going to die. As far as I know, the one taken by the seeker swarms is random.

I think there might be a heirarchy.  For example, Miranda can't ever be taken by the swarms, so she would be at the top of the 'seeker swarm kill' list, meaning she will never die no matter who is in the party.  I tried it with Jacob/Grunt a few times and the swarms always took Grunt, so I assume Jacob is higher on this heirarchy than Grunt.

I could be wrong, of course.

That is an accurate conclusion. A hierarchy might very well exist for the seeker swarms (they have preferences too!)

Grunt seems to be taken away a lot more often than the others. Maybe it really does depend on who has the higher defensive score?

Hmm...

Modifié par Ecael, 14 juin 2010 - 01:42 .

[Pacifien]

My save point is right before the biotic shield... dare I put this to the test?



I have read that being loyal/unloyal doesn't seem to have anything to do with it as people have seen a loyal person taken before an unloyal. So unlike the Hold the Line sequence where the unloyals go before the loyals, maybe there's just one straight up list for the seeker swarms.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Pacifien wrote...

Did a playthrough where I left loyals Kasumi, Tali, and Mordin to hold the line with unloyals Samara and Garrus. It confirmed that Garrus will die before Samara, which was something from the Game Informer article that I didn't actually doubt. But what I'm trying to figure out is if Garrus's defense score is higher than Samara's, and setting up a hold the line group to test this is a bit trickier. With unloyals Zaeed and Garrus, Garrus dies. With unloyals Zaeed and Samara, Samara dies. So no help there. Going to add loyal Jack to the party, see if she makes a difference.
Was getting really tired of killing the human reaper today until I realized I didn't have to keep testing this on Insanity difficulty. It's surprising just how easy Normal difficulty is after not playing it for months.

That actually reminds me, Pacifien. I know it may sound silly, but am I the only one who's noticed that squadmates who can use assault rifles tend to have higher defense scores and seem to last longer holding the line? This, of course, includes Samara, as she does have her own assault rifle, despite her biotic nature.

And I look forward to the seeker swarms list, if you guys can do it.

Modifié par FieryPhoenix7, 14 juin 2010 - 06:42 .

[Ecael]

Pacifien wrote...

My save point is right before the biotic shield... dare I put this to the test?

I have read that being loyal/unloyal doesn't seem to have anything to do with it as people have seen a loyal person taken before an unloyal. So unlike the Hold the Line sequence where the unloyals go before the loyals, maybe there's just one straight up list for the seeker swarms.

Done.

Seeker Swarm Death List (First to Last):
1. Thane
2. Jack
3. Garrus
4. Legion
5. Samara
6. Grunt
7. Jacob
8. Mordin
9. Tali
10. Kasumi
11. Zaeed
12. Morinth
13. Miranda

Thane/Grunt = Thane taken
Thane/Garrus = Thane taken
Thane/Jack = Thane taken
Thane/Jacob = Thane taken
Thane/Kasumi = Thane taken
Thane/Legion = Thane taken
Thane/Miranda = Thane taken
Thane/Mordin = Thane taken
Thane/Morinth = Thane taken
Thane/Samara = Thane taken
Thane/Tali = Thane taken
Thane/Zaeed = Thane taken

Jack/Garrus = Jack taken
Jack/Grunt = Jack taken
Jack/Jacob = Jack taken
Jack/Kasumi = Jack taken
Jack/Legion = Jack taken
Jack/Miranda = Jack taken
Jack/Mordin = Jack taken
Jack/Morinth = Jack taken
Jack/Samara = Jack taken
Jack/Tali = Jack taken
Jack/Zaeed = Jack taken

Garrus/Grunt = Garrus taken
Garrus/Jacob = Garrus taken
Garrus/Legion = Garrus taken
Garrus/Kasumi = Garrus taken
Garrus/Miranda = Garrus taken
Garrus/Mordin = Garrus taken
Garrus/Morinth = Garrus taken
Garrus/Samara = Garrus taken
Garrus/Tali = Garrus taken
Garrus/Zaeed = Garrus taken

Legion/Grunt = Legion taken
Legion/Jacob = Legion taken
Legion/Kasumi = Legion taken
Legion/Miranda = Legion taken
Legion/Mordin = Legion taken
Legion/Morinth = Legion taken
Legion/Samara = Legion taken
Legion/Tali = Legion taken
Legion/Zaeed = Legion taken

Samara/Grunt = Samara taken
Samara/Jacob = Samara taken
Samara/Kasumi = Samara taken
Samara/Miranda = Samara taken
Samara/Mordin = Samara taken
Samara/Tali = Samara taken
Samara/Zaeed = Samara taken

Grunt/Jacob = Grunt taken
Grunt/Kasumi = Grunt taken
Grunt/Miranda = Grunt taken
Grunt/Mordin = Grunt taken
Grunt/Morinth = Grunt taken
Grunt/Tali = Grunt taken
Grunt/Zaeed = Grunt taken

Jacob/Kasumi = Jacob taken
Jacob/Miranda = Jacob taken
Jacob/Mordin = Jacob taken
Jacob/Morinth = Jacob taken
Jacob/Zaeed = Jacob taken
Jacob/Tali = Jacob taken

Mordin/Miranda = Mordin taken
Mordin/Morinth = Mordin taken
Mordin/Tali = Mordin taken
Mordin/Kasumi = Mordin taken
Mordin/Zaeed = Mordin taken

Tali/Kasumi = Tali taken
Tali/Miranda = Tali taken
Tali/Morinth = Tali taken
Tali/Zaeed = Tali taken

Kasumi/Miranda = Kasumi taken
Kasumi/Morinth = Kasumi taken
Kasumi/Zaeed = Kasumi taken

Zaeed/Miranda = Zaeed taken
Zaeed/Morinth = Zaeed taken

Morinth/Miranda = Morinth taken

Modifié par Ecael, 14 juin 2010 - 11:32 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

That's incredible, Ecael...

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Ecael wrote...

List of seeker swarm death.

Holy cow! You must have done ALOT of testing to find that out! Also it's good somebody finally released a list about the seeker swarm deaths.

[Pacifien]

Yay Ecael!

Now the only thing I need to work on is figuring out the defensive capabilities of all the squadmates who aren't Garrus, Grunt, Kasumi, Mordin, Tali, and Zaeed. Someone seemed to think Jacob's defense score was particularly high, but he's in the lower middle of the death list. But I've already established there is a difference between death and defense.

[JockBuster]

Robinaero wrote...

OK,OK - read this thread several times and finally have to ask the question: Am I the only one (X-box player) who did ALL the loyalty missions - used Garrus as the first team leader, sent Mordin in the vents only to watch Mordin die as we closed the doors BEFORE the "Hold the Line" sequence and final teams were picked?

Everyone else survived including the crew who I sent back with Legion.

Lately (maybe in Apr/May) suddenly no matter WHO I sent into the ducts dies; first it was Tali (BAD), but now I just send a loyal Thane, he is sick and NOT gonna make it to ME3. I also get Miranda killed (YEAH!) by siding with Jack (top right choice). Maybe this is affected by how high Renagade/Paragon score?

[Pacifien]

Your tech specialist for the duct needs to be 1) loyal and 2) Kasumi, Legion or Tali. But that isn't all you need to ensure their survival. Your fire team leader also needs to be a) loyal and Garrus, Jacob or Miranda. If you don't meet both of these requirements, the tech specialist will die.

[Lite Em Up]

Malysoun wrote...

Just ran another experiment.

Ex 5)
All recruited except Thane
Loyal: Garrus, Jack, Mordin, Tali
Lead: Garrus (both)
Vents: Tali
Escort: Mordin
Biotic: Jack
Boss: Jack/Tali

Results in everyone lives. This is the first I've managed to do with only 4 loyals.
Having less people recruited apparently lowers the total count you need to hit.

I went back and picked Garrus/Tali for the boss, leaving Jack; and Miranda dies. So it would seem that Miranda is higher on the death priority than Jacob per my previous attempts.

I'll probably experiment a little more maybe leaving Zaeed and Samara unrecruited and seeing how far I can get.

its been awhile since i have played ME2 so the results of my own experiment maybe abit rusty to recall..


So if i remembered it correctly, i also tried to figure out who are the 4 teammates needed to be loyal in order to have everyone survived...

I did the same thing as you did before you posted your results(i didn't posted my results since my experiment might have some errors in it, i thought of posting it later once i believe i dont have alot of errors in my experiment)..

And i do believe that you can't have a minimum of 4 loyal teammates without everyone surviving, assuming you recruited everyone pre-kasumi dlc & you sent someone to escort your normandy crew.. But i was able to have a minimum of 5 loyal members with everyone surviving, pre-kasumi dlc & you sent someone to escort with your normandy crew.. i haven't bought the kasumi dlc, so i cant comment about how she fits in the "hold the line" part...


i did tried a combo of loyal Grunt-Garrus-Zaeed-Mordin, Grunt-Garrus-Zaeed-Thane, Grunt-Garrus-Zaeed-Samara, Garrus-Miranda-Tali-Mordin,Miranda-Tali-Mordin-Jack, Grunt-Mordin-Tali-Jack, Zaeed-Jack-Tali-Mordin & none of them worked on saving one of your teammates from dying..

Doing any of the combos above results in having Mordin, Tali, Jack, Miranda, or Jacob dying..And i do believe that these are the order of their squishiness..

I haven't doen a full experiment of the order of squishiness, but i do believe that Samara, Legion, & Thane are the next in line after Jacob.. anyone having experimented on the order of squishiness??


On the 5 loyal teammates: a loyal Grunt, Zaeed, or Garrus works well with the group of  Miranda-Tali-Mordin-Jack...

[Pacifien]

Lite Em Up wrote...
*snip*
I haven't doen a full experiment of the order of squishiness, but i do believe that Samara, Legion, & Thane are the next in line after Jacob.. anyone having experimented on the order of squishiness??

On the 5 loyal teammates: a loyal Grunt, Zaeed, or Garrus works well with the group of  Miranda-Tali-Mordin-Jack...

The June 2010 Game Informer article actually tells you what order the squadmates die in.

Mordin -> Tali -> Kasumi -> Jack -> Miranda -> Jacob -> Garrus -> Samara -> Legion -> Thane -> Zaeed -> Grunt

In post higher up on the page from yours, I even confirm Garrus's spot on the list.

Then on a different thread I posted the minimum number of squadmates loyal for everyone to come out alive. Six if you recruit all twelve. Four if you recruit ten, but one of them is Zaeed.

[jlb524]

Ecael wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

My save point is right before the biotic shield... dare I put this to the test?

I have read that being loyal/unloyal doesn't seem to have anything to do with it as people have seen a loyal person taken before an unloyal. So unlike the Hold the Line sequence where the unloyals go before the loyals, maybe there's just one straight up list for the seeker swarms.

Done.

Seeker Swarm Death List (First to Last):
1. Thane
2. Jack
3. Garrus
4. Legion
5. Samara
6. Grunt
7. Jacob
8. Mordin
9. Tali
10. Kasumi
11. Zaeed
12. Morinth
13. Miranda

Interesting...I wonder why the DLC characters and Morinth are harder to kill in this area?

[Ecael]

jlb524 wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

My save point is right before the biotic shield... dare I put this to the test?

I have read that being loyal/unloyal doesn't seem to have anything to do with it as people have seen a loyal person taken before an unloyal. So unlike the Hold the Line sequence where the unloyals go before the loyals, maybe there's just one straight up list for the seeker swarms.

Done.

Seeker Swarm Death List (First to Last):
1. Thane
2. Jack
3. Garrus
4. Legion
5. Samara
6. Grunt
7. Jacob
8. Mordin
9. Tali
10. Kasumi
11. Zaeed
12. Morinth
13. Miranda

Interesting...I wonder why the DLC characters and Morinth are harder to kill in this area?

No clue.

Also, the two easiest to the kill happen to be the "tragic" ME2 romanceable characters. It's the same with the Normandy upgrades - Jack and Thane will always die (unless you didn't recruit Thane).

I wonder what that means for ME3.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Ecael wrote...

No clue.

Also, the two easiest to the kill happen to be the "tragic" ME2 romanceable characters. It's the same with the Normandy upgrades - Jack and Thane will always die (unless you didn't recruit Thane).

I wonder what that means for ME3.

It makes me wonder, too. I hardly think it's a coincidence.

[Malysoun]

Lite Em Up wrote...

Malysoun wrote...

Just ran another experiment.

Ex 5)
All recruited except Thane
Loyal: Garrus, Jack, Mordin, Tali
Lead: Garrus (both)
Vents: Tali
Escort: Mordin
Biotic: Jack
Boss: Jack/Tali

Results in everyone lives. This is the first I've managed to do with only 4 loyals.
Having less people recruited apparently lowers the total count you need to hit.

I went back and picked Garrus/Tali for the boss, leaving Jack; and Miranda dies. So it would seem that Miranda is higher on the death priority than Jacob per my previous attempts.

I'll probably experiment a little more maybe leaving Zaeed and Samara unrecruited and seeing how far I can get.

its been awhile since i have played ME2 so the results of my own experiment maybe abit rusty to recall..


So if i remembered it correctly, i also tried to figure out who are the 4 teammates needed to be loyal in order to have everyone survived...

I did the same thing as you did before you posted your results(i didn't posted my results since my experiment might have some errors in it, i thought of posting it later once i believe i dont have alot of errors in my experiment)..

And i do believe that you can't have a minimum of 4 loyal teammates without everyone surviving, assuming you recruited everyone pre-kasumi dlc & you sent someone to escort your normandy crew.. But i was able to have a minimum of 5 loyal members with everyone surviving, pre-kasumi dlc & you sent someone to escort with your normandy crew.. i haven't bought the kasumi dlc, so i cant comment about how she fits in the "hold the line" part...


i did tried a combo of loyal Grunt-Garrus-Zaeed-Mordin, Grunt-Garrus-Zaeed-Thane, Grunt-Garrus-Zaeed-Samara, Garrus-Miranda-Tali-Mordin,Miranda-Tali-Mordin-Jack, Grunt-Mordin-Tali-Jack, Zaeed-Jack-Tali-Mordin & none of them worked on saving one of your teammates from dying..

Doing any of the combos above results in having Mordin, Tali, Jack, Miranda, or Jacob dying..And i do believe that these are the order of their squishiness..

I haven't doen a full experiment of the order of squishiness, but i do believe that Samara, Legion, & Thane are the next in line after Jacob.. anyone having experimented on the order of squishiness??


On the 5 loyal teammates: a loyal Grunt, Zaeed, or Garrus works well with the group of  Miranda-Tali-Mordin-Jack...

I loaded that save back up a few weeks ago after getting the Kasumi dlc and doing her mission, leaving Thane unrecruited, which brought my loyals up to 5, but I was still short of whatever the total combined rating is, Miranda bit the dust.

Which makes sense actually since Kasumi was speculated before release as being in with Tali/Mordin/Jack as squishy, her loyal defense value is less than Thane's.

I never did find a way to further reduce my number of loyals and still survive, or even progress much further in the game for that matter as events are tied to number of recruitment missions such that I could not leave half the crew unrecruited in an attempt to lower the total.

I had to take a break after my engineer insanity run, got boring afterwards. I've been playing DAO, and finishing up some DLC I never did with ME1 while prepping a new character for ME2 as all my other imports have the same character name, it gets confusing.

Wish Bioware would have allowed the imports to change name.
"They gave you a new identity Revan, but you're still the same person underneath"

[Euphobia-]

The first person died for me on Hold The Line this evening. Tali died, even though everyone was loyal (Mordin got sent back). The only thing I did differently than previous runthroughs where everyone has survived this stage was spend too long on the boss. I had a rocket launcher as heavy weapon, and tried using it on one of the vials. It didn't destroy it in 1 shot, so it took longer, and Tali died. I did the mission again with the exact same people, and made sure I could destroy all the vials in one shot and everyone survived.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Mordin, Legion, Garrus, all loyal holding the line. Do they all make it out okay?





for info's sake my run is like this:

Loyals: Jacob, Miranda, Grunt, Mordin, Garrus, Thane, Kasumi, Legion

Unloyals: Jack, Tali, Samara, Zaeed



Jack, Kasumi, Thane die on the ship

Tali dies closing the door

Jacob gets taken by the swarms

Grunt dies leading the second team

Zaeed dies escorting the crew

Samara dies after the final boss

oh and Kelly gets melted



That just leaves Garrus, Mordin, and Legion holding the line. Just wondering how that one will turn out.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Result:


Man I got nervous with Mordin. When Shepard checked in with that team it looked like mordin got shot and collapsed, but somehow he managed to survive. Is that a glitch or is it supposed to happen that way?

Overall I think this is my ideal playthrough, not knowing me3's imports obviously.  Kept the suicide mission thrilling, gave me more control over personal narrative arcs for each character, and left me with a decent group to take into me3 on this save file.  (Also one little thing, if you mess up samara's mission, it says you got her outfit, but then when you try to select her it doesn't bring up the prompt)  It felt like I ended up keeping a majority of the "important characters" as well.  (though I'd consider adjusting it for Kasumi...)  I might end up doing things differently on my "ideal trilogy" playthrough when the third game finally hits and we know the implications of our choices and if characters have to live to carry those through (ex: if Zaeed dies will Vido still show up in ME3?)...although who knows when that will be?

Modifié par Doctor_Jackstraw, 22 juin 2010 - 06:56 .

[aDuck]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Man I got nervous with Mordin. When Shepard checked in with that team it looked like mordin got shot and collapsed, but somehow he managed to survive. Is that a glitch or is it supposed to happen that way?

Yeah, Iv seen that every time I saw that section, but i usually see garrus go down... even when everyone survives.  Maybe someone uses unity

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

it is almost comical when it happens to mordin, especially since he comes out of it okay in the end.