335 réponses à ce sujet

[S Ranger]

Interesting, if someone could make a guide on this and find the actual values that would be awesome.



How come the prima strategy guide has nothing on this? its like 15 dollars and it doesnt tell jack squat! Bioware, come on and fill us in!

[GnusmasTHX]

HelterSkelter89 wrote...

i just figured this was common sense lawl.

[TLK Spires]

if you talk to mordin enough, he makes direct reference to kirrahe, the salarian task force leader on virmire who gave the 'hold the line' speech. he says it's inspiring, but he, personally, *hates holding the line*.



he prefers to go, not do.

[Keltoris]

Quasi-related:



Tali is like 50 billion times squishier than Legion in the vents.



That or I must have leap-frogged a valve.

[Trench Coat]

Weird, I always had Grunt go back with the crew. And took Zaeed and Jack with me to fight the boss, and Mordin never died. Maybe Im just lucky.

[faeriehunter]

Trench Coat wrote...

Weird, I always had Grunt go back with the crew. And took Zaeed and Jack with me to fight the boss, and Mordin never died. Maybe Im just lucky.

Probably a borderline case. The first time I did the suicide mission I had Zaeed go back with dr Chakwas (the only one of the crew still alive). Then I took Grunt and Legion with me to the boss fight, and Mordin died. It surprised me because I had recruited every possible squad member and made them all loyal. I think that Mordin lived in your playthrough because you took Jack, who according to Dusty Everman is squishy, with you.

[EDarkness]

StowyMcStowstow wrote...

Remember, you gotta Hold The Line, because love isn't always on time.

Whoa, whoa, whoa!

[PingoBlack]

Trench Coat wrote...

Weird, I always had Grunt go back with the crew. And took Zaeed and Jack with me to fight the boss, and Mordin never died. Maybe Im just lucky.

I have a theory that Legion has a high Hold The Line score, especialy with the Widow.

Him, Garrus and Zaeed in the line ... and the good doctor was fine and dandy through it.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Yeah this makes sense to me, the only time I had Mordin die was because I shifted someone away from that squad that fits that description.

[nelander30]

TLK Spires wrote...

if you talk to mordin enough, he makes direct reference to kirrahe, the salarian task force leader on virmire who gave the 'hold the line' speech. he says it's inspiring, but he, personally, *hates holding the line*.

he prefers to go, not do.

They way I understood it was that he disaproves of speeches, just do the work and go, speeches are military bravado, *cough* no offense Shepard

[Snowraptor]

Occams Razor 17 wrote...

 This is on page 2 of this http://social.biowar...5/index/1117936 thread, and I felt it might be helpful to post it on its own, as I've seen questions repeatedly asked about Mordin's death during Hold the Line and this explains it.

Dusty Everman wrote...

Mordin's death is not a glitch or bug.  I believe that when people are surprised with Mordin's death, it's during the "Hold the Line" time where you leave crew behind as you and two squad mates move onward.   Tech had their moment in the sun with the tunnel infiltration.  A biotic is key for the protective bubble.  The Hold the Line sequence is time for your soldier types to do their best.

Basically you want your best DEFENDERS to hold the line.  Don't think about offensive solo strikers.  Think about the guys that can dig down and hold a position with moxie.  You want them to hold the line.

Under the hood, each character has a "hole the line" score, which gets a bonus  if the character is loyal.  Characters like Mordin, Jack and Tali are squishy and not exoeruenced with bunkering down and holding out for an extended period of time.  Characters like Grunt and Zaeed are tanks who thrive on this type of work.  The score is tallied for all the team members that are holding the line, and the number of survivors are calculated.  If people are to die, the non-loyals squishies go first through the list to the loyal tanks.  Alas, I think Mordin is at the head of the death list.  Some characters can't survive without help even if they are loyal.  Others can survive even if not loyal.   

Here are some examples for the group holding the line:
Loyal Mordin by himself:  He can't hold the line by himself.  He dies.
Non-loyal Grunt by himself: Grunt lives.  He hunkers down and gets the job done, and doesn't have to worry about helping any one else.
Loyal Mordin and non-Loyal Grunt:   Grunt dies, but Mordin lives.  Grunt is able to hold the line but goofs up helping Mordin... he was just too aggressive without his right of passage.
Loyal Mordin and Loyal Grunt: They both live.

Note it is possible to get non-loyal henchmen to survive through the end game with the proper group holding the line.

So what is a good strategy?  Send back a loyal squishy with the crew, like Mordin or Tali.   Leave your defensive bad asses to hold the line (hmmm, Garrus defended a base all by himself to an extended period of time....)  and take your loyal offensive favorites with you to the end.

As for saving Kelly and the crew, you just need to make sure you go through the Omega-4 relay right after the crew is taken, and make sure you send a loyal squad mate back as an escort.

Hope this helps people out; and thanks, Dusty, for this info!

Have you ever played the first game, Hold the line is quoted by a salarian before they battled saren, thats why they had mordin say it, Duuu, its so freaking obvious

[CubbieBlue66]

Empiro wrote...

Also just to be clear: you don't need all 8 of your party members to be loyal in order to have everyone survive and also save the entire crew. In fact, someone did it with just 4 loyal characters (and according to a Bioware person, that's the minimum).

In my game, Legion was not loyal, but I still got everyone to survive on my second try (on my first try, Mordin ate a rocket).

I posted this in the thread that the OP's information was from, but it seems like a good idea to repost it here.

CubbieBlue66 wrote...

Interesting...

If memory
serves, we've been told that it's possible to have everybody survive if
we have as few as 4 loyal characters. This adds a bit of information to
that.

We know for sure that if we don't have loyal characters for certain parts, somebody will die. Those parts are:

-The tech expert in the vents (can be done safely by Tali or Legion)
-The leader of the 2nd squad (Garrus, Jacob, or Miranda)
-Biotic expert for the bubble (Jack or Samara)
-Any character to escort the crew back.
-Any characters taken to the final battle

Now we're being told that certain characters (Jack, Tali, and Mordin certainly) are likely to have trouble holding the line.

So
if I were to take a guess at constructing a minimal run that still
saved everybody, I'd probably do Mordin, Tali, Jack, and Miranda's
loyalty missions. We know Mordin, Tali, and Jack for certain. Miranda
is a bit of a guess, but we need to do one of the "leader" characters
and if I had to guess, she'd have the lowest "hold the line" score...
could be Jacob, but I'd put money it isn't Garrus.

Put it all together, and we come up with this:

-Tali in the vents
-Miranda to lead the 2nd team (both times)
-Jack for the bubble
-Send either Tali or Mordin to escort the crew back
-Bring Jack and whichever of Tali or Mordin is still around with you for the final boss.

If I'm correct, that is your minimal "save everybody" run.

[Snowraptor]

OMG, you guys havent played the first game have you, thats why you should always play the first game, especialy something like mass effect, this Why did he say Hold the line crap is down right silly into how you dont know that, just pathetic making all these theroys in characters and teamates when it was quoted by a Salarian you fought with in Mass Effect 1, and mordin was found of him, but hated speeches, unless your last dying words are to be loyal, We Held the line, our influence stopped the rachni, but before that, we held the line. Our inlfuence stopped the Krogan, but before that we held the line. In the battle today against saren and his geth, we will HOLD THE LINE! Clearly makes no sence why a dying salarian like mordin would say that, nope has to be something else.

[Dorryn]

I've ran the suicide mission three time so far, on my first two I had one dead, and never a tech. First time it was Thane, second time it was Grunt. I had both sent them to lead the diversion team.

On my third I managed to save everybody, here's how it went.

Everybody as loyal as can be

Tali in the vents.
Miranda for second team.

Mordin to escort the crew to the Normandy
Garrus to lead diversion team
Samara for the biotic field

Squadmates for final part  : Garrus and Jack

Last speech : "we better hurry" then paragon options (note : I chose the same for the other two ; may have impact on whether or not everyone int he holding survives, knowing that I did actually go as fast as possible until I reached the com-check right before the final boss)

Something I noticed during the last two runs : when Shepard coms the holding team to ask how it goes, someone in the background receives a blast like a rocket and falls on the ground, first time I noticed it was Mordin, next time it was Tali. Didn't affect the outcome : both made it safely to the Normandy.

Modifié par Dorryn, 11 février 2010 - 11:31 .

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Regarding the call back, has anyone witnessed 2 different speeches from the same character when making that call?



1st playthrough I had just Zaeed, Miranda and Jack in defence, Jack stated something along the lines of it getting real bloody and that she was gonna kill me if she saw me again (or words to that affect).



2nd playthrough, I had Jack with a whole bunch of others and she said "Jack here, we're clipping them as they come, but feel free to call for exit at any time!"



Now the only thing I can think is that 1st was a renegade shep, 2nd was paragon shep and obviously 2nd playthrough she had full compliment of people helping out. Interestingly both time everyone in the defence survived though in both case everyone was loyal too, so not sure if that had any effect regarding the 1st one when only had 3 there.

[nitefyre410]

xdaimyox wrote...

Rubbish. I've left Mordin on the line THREE DAMNED TIMES now and he's never died. In fact, nobody has.

 


Thank you, I  leave him on the line on all the time  and  he never dies... its always Jack that ends up getting  killed for me... Where some of these theories are coming from make no sense...  
 its all about who you have lead the  fire teams and MIranda like her or Not is the next best leader after you... 

Grunt or Garrus  can  go back with the crew... 

 Come guys this is not rocket science, its team building. 

[Sapienti]

Its not that if you leave Mordin holding the line he'll die. But if you send back like Grunt or someone he might....like mine did. Sent Grunt back with the survivors thinking "yea this tough guy will see you guys back nice and safe". I'm running back to the ship and see Mordin dead. I wanted to cry. I played through the game again (I could have redone the mission but I had already screwed up by not rushing to save my crew) and when I got to that part I sent Tali back instead and left Grunt with Mordin, and of course everybody got out safe and sound.



But for my first play through I did pretty well with no help. Only Mordin died. My rationale behind everything



Legion in the vents - He's a robot he can survive anything.

Garrus leading strike team - he lead his own team of people on Omega and he's like my right hand

Jack on the biotic field - Samara may be powerful, but I want to see Subject Zero do something with all that reputation.

[Remaix]

Snowraptor wrote...

OMG, you guys havent played the first game have you, thats why you should always play the first game, especialy something like mass effect, this Why did he say Hold the line crap is down right silly into how you dont know that, just pathetic making all these theroys in characters and teamates when it was quoted by a Salarian you fought with in Mass Effect 1, and mordin was found of him, but hated speeches, unless your last dying words are to be loyal, We Held the line, our influence stopped the rachni, but before that, we held the line. Our inlfuence stopped the Krogan, but before that we held the line. In the battle today against saren and his geth, we will HOLD THE LINE! Clearly makes no sence why a dying salarian like mordin would say that, nope has to be something else.

Of course. Because obviously humans are all special, unique individuals but Salarians are all the same.

[GenericPlayer2]

I always leave Mordin on the line and he never died. Once I lost an unloyal Jack on the line but that is about it. I always assign Thane to go back with survivors.

[nitefyre410]

Sapienti wrote...

Its not that if you leave Mordin holding the line he'll die. But if you send back like Grunt or someone he might....like mine did. Sent Grunt back with the survivors thinking "yea this tough guy will see you guys back nice and safe". I'm running back to the ship and see Mordin dead. I wanted to cry. I played through the game again (I could have redone the mission but I had already screwed up by not rushing to save my crew) and when I got to that part I sent Tali back instead and left Grunt with Mordin, and of course everybody got out safe and sound.

But for my first play through I did pretty well with no help. Only Mordin died. My rationale behind everything

Legion in the vents - He's a robot he can survive anything.
Garrus leading strike team - he lead his own team of people on Omega and he's like my right hand
Jack on the biotic field - Samara may be powerful, but I want to see Subject Zero do something with all that reputation.

 

Much prefer Samara  on Biotic,  better endurance over her use biotics over  hundreds of the years.. but can't say  Jack is a bad choice...  I like your team make up through and i see many  use Garrus as the strike team leader... 
 
I like  Garrus  or Grunt for getting the survivors  back because i need them to move FAST...       

Legion is the absolute best choice for Vents, nothing hacks better or faster than a Geth .. 

[aeetos21]

First time through Thane bought it, then I sent Zaeed back with the crew, and so when I took Grunt with me on the final encounter my rearguard was definitely lacking combat type squadmates. I was surprised when Mordin got it but after reading this I have to say that it makes sense, or at least as much sense as doing a mission breakdown like this one could make.

[stillnotking]

This still doesn't make sense. How is the overall "hold the line" score calculated? If loyal Mordin plus loyal Grunt live all by themselves, then why wouldn't loyal Mordin, loyal Grunt AND five other loyal people all survive? Is the overall score the average of individual scores or something? (That would be incredibly silly.)

[Sammuthegreat]

This all suddenly makes perfect sense, and as has been said is mostly common sense. I applied my common sense to the situation having just completed the game for the first time about an hour ago. I had all 11 squadmates, and all 11 were loyal. I did the following, and for the following reasons:



Legion in the vents (they wanted a tech expert, so it was either him, Mordin or Tali; I figured a near-emotionless geth was more expendable than one of the organic other choices, should it all have gone horribly wrong)



Samara as 1st strike team leader (she's badass and extremely experienced; Miranda even commented on how she was a good choice for a leader)



Samara as biotic specialist (seemed more dependable than Jack, who I figured might fly off the handle and join the battle herself)



Jacob as 2nd strike team leader (it was him or Miranda for me, and I figured he could take a hit better than Miranda could, what with his combat abilities and Barrier)



Tali took the crew back to the Normandy (the dialogue suggested it would be a clear run back, with no enemies, so I figured I'd keep her out of the line of fire because she's squishy)



Took Thane and Garrus to the final boss, because they're my boys.



That left Samara, Jack, Zaeed, Grunt, Mordin, Jacob, and Miranda holding the line, because Legion died after the first section.



______





I now realise that Samara was the wrong choice for the 1st strike team leader, which makes sense because she's worked alone for so many years. Now I think about it, the bits of speech that came through the radio from Samara during the first section sounded like she was having a hard time of it - from the cutscenes, her team was just her and Jack, with Legion in the vents. Pretty squishy team. By contrast, the second section had Jacob saying confident and positive things over the radio, suggesting he was having a much better time of it.







Anyway, I know where I went wrong now, and although I'm pretty ok with losing just one squadmate on my first run through, I don't mind going back through and quickly running the mission again, choosing Miranda as the first strike team leader.

[shaneho78]

Your theory could explain why Tali dies if I pick Garrus and Grunt in my final team but lives if i pick Thane and Samara.

[Sapienti]

stillnotking wrote...

This still doesn't make sense. How is the overall "hold the line" score calculated? If loyal Mordin plus loyal Grunt live all by themselves, then why wouldn't loyal Mordin, loyal Grunt AND five other loyal people all survive? Is the overall score the average of individual scores or something? (That would be incredibly silly.)

He was just trying to make everything as simple as possible. There is no "hold the line score" and of course it probably wouldn't be those two alone. Just saying that the combat heavy characters are better suited for the task. And them in that team helps, obviously. You could call "hold the line score" "muscle points" just to get the point across, that the combat characters are built for situations like that.