335 réponses à ce sujet

[NYG1991]

NukeHaze wrote...

Is it standard to see a human wake up and then get "digested" before seeing the Normandy crew and breaking open the pods? I do not believe it was a Normandy human but the woman from Horizon that was talking to Ashley (in my game in place of possible Kaiden Alenko).

I think it is but am asking to see if others see this. Also, I never went straight after the crew but made sure I stopped at merchants for last minute upgrades before making the final stand. It seemed best to be prepared even if rushing into a fight. All loyalties and upgrades are done and still toying around with different team combos.

yea. you always see a human pureed. if you wait too long it will be yeoman cahmbers, otherwise it will be the colonist from horizon

[Mallissin]

I'm guessing the formula involves weighting by loyalty and maybe even class level. I've noticed in some threads that people mentioned characters without a fourth level for their respective class upgrades seem to die more. So, perhaps each character starts off with a base, gets a modifier for loyalty and class level. The characters holding the line are tallied up, if they don't meet the required amount then the difference is applied to the character with the lowest score and that person dies.

Let's run with the explanation above, giving Garrus, Grunt, Miranda, and Jacob all 3's, since they seem to be the best suited for Holding the Line. Samara/Morinth, Thane and Legion get 2's, while Tali, Jack and Mordin get 1's. Having any loyal adds a point and level 4 class adds another.

When the event happens, those you left there get tallied and must be compared to a base number that might be dependent on your difficulty setting. So, lets say you play Casual and you need 12 points for everyone to survive. Normal needs 20. Insanity needs 30.

If your tally doesn't meet the required level, the difference kills a number of your crew depending on their respective score. If you fail by more than a certain amount, they all die.

Let's take Hgroe15's well documented example (which I greatly appreciate). I'm going to assume Hgroe15 decided to level up everyone's class to 4.

Loyal Garrus - Base 3 + Loyal 1 + Topclass 1 = 5
Loyal Zaeed - 3 + 1 + 1 = 5
Loyal Jack - 1 +1 + 1 = 3
Unloyal Jacob - 3 + 1 = 4
Unloyal Samara - 2 + 1 = 3
Unloyal Thane - 2 + 1 = 3
Unloyal Legion - 2 + 1 = 3
Unloyal Mordin - 1 +1 = 2

Hgroe15's HTL tally would be 28, two shy of the 30 needed for Insanity. Mordin is the weakest link and has equal or less points than the difference so he dies. Loyal Miranda and Grunt would both be 5's, so had he taken any of the threes up on the list to the boss instead of either than Mordin would have lived.

I'm not saying this is the formula or right values, but I bet it's something like it. Getting more data from Hgroe15, WorstEver, Fredvdp or Sheridanmovieguy would help, or maybe even a save game from them to examine. WorstEver's first two scenarios with Garrus dying (who the dev said was hard core) would probably be the most telling.

I've never lost anyone in HTL. I did all the loyalty quests before Reaper IFF and always sent Mordin back with the crew (not because he's weak, but STG). So, I really have no saves on my end that will help.

Modifié par Mallissin, 26 février 2010 - 04:26 .

[Noobius_Maximo]

Will everyone survive if I take Mordin and Miranda on the final part, and send Tali to escort the Normandy crew?

[mundus66]

Some things i like to add. It is fully possible to clear the suicide mission with only 4 loyal, without anyone dying, i have done it. I did have Zaeed (loyal) holding the line though, but still, only 4 loyal. I have also made everyone survive without Legion (gave him to cerberus) and Zaeed (didn't have him on that character) i was renegade though so i didn't send anyone back to the ship. Tali and Mordin has never died for me strange enough, although i usually send Mordin back to ship, but the times i haven't he still survived.

Edit. Both of these scenarios was on insanity if that makes any difference.

Modifié par mundus66, 27 février 2010 - 12:54 .

[Karstedt]

I had 100% loyalty and all but 3 non-ship upgrades (because I didn't have enough credits left). I took Grunt and Miranda on the final leg, and went to Mordin's funeral after he died holding the line. I was quite surprised when I didn't get the no one left behind medal. After looking through the 'guide', it's probably because I sent Garrus to escort the crew back. I was worried that if I sent someone squishy they wouldn't make it.

This was my first playthrough. And I was on Hardcore difficulty.

Modifié par Karstedt, 27 février 2010 - 12:36 .

[superimposed]

100% Survival Rate every game:

Full loyalty on every character, full character and ship upgrades.

Tech: Tali

Leader both times: Jacob

Biotics: Jack

Escort: Samara

That's all there is to it.


Mordin died once, and I couldn't figure out why. I then reloaded and old save and discovered it was because I didn't talk to him after his loyalty mission. Always talk to them after.

[JedTed]

Which squadmembers classify as a tank? On my most recent run through i chose Zaeed as the escort(figured you'd need someone beefy to defend Chakwas and the gang but geuss the only thing that really matters is loyalty) and i had Legion on Tali with me for the final battle. Everyone else held the line and nobody died.

I had lost Miranda's loyalty when i sided with Jack but everyone else was loyal. So how many loyal tanks are needed to keep the whole team alive?

P.S. sorry if this question has been answered in this thread, i didn't feel like reading through all 6 pages.

Modifié par JedTed, 28 février 2010 - 01:15 .

[Occams Razor 17]

JedTed wrote...

Which squadmembers classify as a tank? On my most recent run through i chose Zaeed as the escort(figured you'd need someone beefy to defend Chakwas and the gang but geuss the only thing that really matters is loyalty) and i had Legion on Tali with me for the final battle. Everyone else held the line and nobody died.

I had lost Miranda's loyalty when i sided with Jack but everyone else was loyal. So how many loyal tanks are needed to keep the whole team alive?

P.S. sorry if this question has been answered in this thread, i didn't feel like reading through all 6 pages.

Grunt, Garrus, and Zaeed are the ones confirmed to be considered tanks.  The number of loyal tanks needed on the line to keep the whole team alive vary depending on how many squadmates are loyal, how many squadmates you have, and which ones are also on the line (ie, if they're squishy or not squishy ones).

[NukeHaze]

Siding with Miranda or Jack in the "catfight" did not result in me losing either one's loyalty I think because of using the Paragon option. You may use the Renegade option according to Xbox Live videos for acheivements but I only lost Jack's interest after turning her down and after her loyalty still resulting in a retained loyalty but that she just would not talk to me anymore.

[mosor]

I don't think I've ever had anyone die holding the line. I even had Tali hold the line and survive and she wasn't even loyal.



I had legion (loyal) in the vents

Garrus (Loyal) firesquad x 2

Jack (loyal) biotic barrier

Mordin (not loyal) escort crew back to ship

Grunt and Miranda (both loyal) for final party.



I never bothered recruiting thane or samara because their upgrades don't make a difference in the final battle. Everyone survived,

[Sturmwulfe]

Not sure if this helps anyone, but...



For my vents, I used Tali. My first team leader was Garrus, my second was Jacob. I used Samara for biotics, and I let Thane escort the crew back.



I also made sure to keep Jack with me most of the time, for the reason that I figured if her and Miranda were put into a team together, they may not cover each other, and Jack isn't a team player. She's loyal to Shepard, not the rest of the crew. I brought her and Legion with me for the fight against the Human-Reaper larva, and I got back to find my entire crew survived.



I think a lot of who lives and who dies honestly depends on how much you pay attention to their back stories.



As for Mordin's comments of "I always loved his speeches, 'hold the line!'. I always preferred just to go in and get the job done.", I think he wasn't suggesting he wasn't a good team player, he did after all serve in a few different covert teams that were successful, and his ability to 'hold the line' is well proven when he managed to hold off waves of heavily armed mercenaries, even with a few security drones. They imply he did most of the heavy lifting on that one.

[horas1990]

Okay here's my setup for everyone living.NOTE" ALL MY SQUAD WAS LOYAL AND HAD ALL UPGRADES"

Tech (Legion). Tali also works other than that they will die

Fire squad leaders (First Garrus), (Second Jacob). I think Miranda also works but other than that there will be casualties.

Biotic (Samara). Jack also works. don't know about Miranda, Jacob or Thane but logically Samara and Jack are the best choices because simply they are you're most powerful biotics

I sent back (Thane) with the rescued crew members because i rarely used him. Send anyone you don't want as long as he or she is loyal. Also I recommend sending someone "squishy" as Moridin or Tali.

Now here is the part where there is some confusion and debate in the line defense., I took (Grunt) and (Samara) with me. However, everyone survived. According to many explanations i should have lost a "squishy" member because i took a tank(Grunt) with me. From my understanding i advise to leave most of your strong characters(Like at least 2 out of 3 tanks Zaeed, Garuss and Grunt) behind especially Garuss who seems to excel at holding the line(Remember Omega).

Anyway good luck and a word of advice if you took the time to upgrade your Normandy and gain the loyalty of your squad(and ofc you care about ur squad or want the achiev) don't give up if someone dies. Simply restart the mission

[Ginger Kat]

Noobius_Maximo wrote...

Will everyone survive if I take Mordin and Miranda on the final part, and send Tali to escort the Normandy crew?

This is my plan too..., I use Mordin's Heavy Incinerate & Miranda's Heavy Overload (my character is an Adept) alot & want to take this same team against the Boss.

So, I'd like to ask the same question.....

[Mikka-chan]

I think there's no question that if you have everyone loyal, you'll have a lot of survivors. Save for making a bad choice, it seems pretty rare for someone to die. If someone does, though, it seems that nine out of ten times it's Mordin, which is interesting in itself.



I think the big tests on who lives who dies what order will have to be done with less loyalty. I might try a 'Jerkass Shepard' and see how far I get with offending practically everyone.

[_- Songlian -]

So is there some official word on the survival mission, how it works more exactly? Because there seems to be a lot of contradictory advice in this thread. For instance, related to the OP's post, I've had a NON loyal, almost never used Miranda survive as a Leader choice, whereas a loyal Legion as a Tech still died on me. I didn't took anyone "squishy" during the boss fight and had no casualties. Basically, with a full loyal squad -- minus previously mentioned Miranda -- I've had everyone survive, except poor Legion.

Modifié par - Songlian -, 03 mars 2010 - 10:24 .

[Vanth]

I'm sorry, but this is a stupid meta-gaming philosophy. There are no such thing as tanks in real life (well, except for real tanks of course). Either you are effective in combat (hit the enemy, but don't get hit yourself) or you are not. Who you should take to the final battle should only depend on two things: is the final battle tougher than holding the line?; and who are my best fighters?



If Mordin is so squishy that he can't hold the line, he should not be going with you to the final battle.



For that matter, the decision to send a squishy back as escort is also stupid, and entirely based on hindsight. They don't meet any resistance, so a squishy was fin, but they could very well have come across a sizable collector force and been wiped. In reality you would want to send someone like Jacob.

[Occams Razor 17]

- Songlian - wrote...

So is there some official word on the survival mission, how it works more exactly? Because there seems to be a lot of contradictory advice in this thread. For instance, related to the OP's post, I've had a NON loyal, almost never used Miranda survive as a Leader choice, whereas a loyal Legion as a Tech still died on me. I didn't took anyone "squishy" during the boss fight and had no casualties. Basically, with a full loyal squad -- minus previously mentioned Miranda -- I've had everyone survive, except poor Legion.

A non-loyal first leader gets the vents guy killed, even if the squadmate in the vents is loyal.  

[Occams Razor 17]

Jethart wrote...

I'm sorry, but this is a stupid meta-gaming philosophy. There are no such thing as tanks in real life (well, except for real tanks of course). Either you are effective in combat (hit the enemy, but don't get hit yourself) or you are not. Who you should take to the final battle should only depend on two things: is the final battle tougher than holding the line?; and who are my best fighters?

If Mordin is so squishy that he can't hold the line, he should not be going with you to the final battle.

For that matter, the decision to send a squishy back as escort is also stupid, and entirely based on hindsight. They don't meet any resistance, so a squishy was fin, but they could very well have come across a sizable collector force and been wiped. In reality you would want to send someone like Jacob.

I make no claims that it all makes sense, especially since the game doesn't give context or justification for some of it.  I just compiled the techniques that would allow people who have been getting frustrated on the suicide mission keep everyone alive.

[Funkfried]

Used Garrus as Teamleader both times, Tali in the vents und Jacob took my Crew back, Samara for the biotic shield, Mordin and Jack are my Team, noone died.

[Fluffeh Kitteh]

You know what they should just give you the option to ASSUME DIRECT CONTROL of the hold the line team. It'll be fun, like that pyjak-shooting minigame, only this time it's your team mates against collector waves.

[Malysoun]

Mikka-chan wrote...

I think there's no question that if you have everyone loyal, you'll have a lot of survivors. Save for making a bad choice, it seems pretty rare for someone to die. If someone does, though, it seems that nine out of ten times it's Mordin, which is interesting in itself.

I think the big tests on who lives who dies what order will have to be done with less loyalty. I might try a 'Jerkass Shepard' and see how far I get with offending practically everyone.

I've found on multiple playthroughs that I cannot have everyone live on normal difficulty if I have less than 5 loyal and do not fill roles properly

I had to rush a bit on IFF and then kill a lot of time before kidnap event triggers.

Experiment 1)

All squadmembers recruited (minus the new DLC which isn't out yet).
Loyal: Jacob, Jack, Mordin, Tali
Leader: Jacob (both)
Vents: Tali
Biotic: Jack
Escort: Mordin
Boss: Jack/Tali

Results in Miranda death.

Go back to earlier save and get Miranda loyal, everyone lives.


Experiment 2)
All recruited.
Loyal: Jack, Miranda, Mordin, Tali
Leader: Miranda (both)
Vents: Tali
Biotic: Jack
Escort: Mordin
Boss: Jack/Tali

Results in Jacob death.

Experiment 3)
All recruited.
Loyal: Legion, Jack, Miranda, Mordin, Tali
Leader: Miranda (both)
Vents: Tali
Biotic: Jack
Escort: Mordin
Boss: Legion/Tali

Results in Jacob death.

Reloading from before the final fight and leaving Legion on the line and taking Jack results in everyone living.


Granted, I went into this purposely taking the three squishies out by making Mordin escort and taking Jack/Tali with me.
It seems that Miranda and Jacob rank about equal. Though I need to do another run with Garrus as leader to see which has death priority.
However, an unloyal Legion ranks higher than Miranda/Jacob per experiments #1&2 where Miranda or Jacob died.
And Loyal Legion is a better defender than Loyal Jack.

The previous post about number values Grunt/Garrus/Zaeed = 3, Jack/Mordin/Tali = 1 and everyone else = 2 is fairly close I think.

The next set of experiments, I will probably recruit less people to see what happens. I expect to need more loyal to survive with less recruited unloyals.

[rumblefv]

I'm not really sure I understand why Mordin was labelled squishy (indirectly by game or whatever) when this is the same guy who took out a bunch of aliens on his own in Omega when they were threatening his clinic. I honestly didn't have any second thoughts whatsoever when I sent him back with the crew. Fitting though with him being the "medical guy".

Anyway, would there be any reason not to do any of the loyalty quests? Yes for maybe story reasons you couldn't care less about gaining their loyalty but you have to ask yourself when they die, would that Shephard really care then? 

Modifié par rumblefv, 10 mars 2010 - 02:23 .

[Malysoun]

Mordin says himself that instead of holding the line, he prefers to get in and get the job done.

Salarian STG and spec-ops even in ME1 with the names of their heroes like "The Silent Step" sound a lot more like fragile sneak up behind and shoot you in the back types than front line fighters.

We don't know the circumstances of the clinic fight.

Jack took down four YMIR mechs, is supposedly THE most powerful human biotic, but also sucks at holding the line.



I can always go back and do the remaining missions later. Would Shep care? Well maybe Shep does care about everyone on his/her crew, but took bad advice from Jacob about getting the IFF right away and wants to save his/her crew before something happens to them.

[Maestro975]

Biotic (Samara). Jack also works. don't know about Miranda, Jacob or Thane

They get tired, and one of your squadmates gets carried off by seeker swarms. I think this also happens if Samara or Jack aren't loyal. Need confirmation on this.

[Malysoun]

Just ran another experiment.



Ex 5)

All recruited except Thane

Loyal: Garrus, Jack, Mordin, Tali

Lead: Garrus (both)

Vents: Tali

Escort: Mordin

Biotic: Jack

Boss: Jack/Tali



Results in everyone lives. This is the first I've managed to do with only 4 loyals.

Having less people recruited apparently lowers the total count you need to hit.



I went back and picked Garrus/Tali for the boss, leaving Jack; and Miranda dies. So it would seem that Miranda is higher on the death priority than Jacob per my previous attempts.



I'll probably experiment a little more maybe leaving Zaeed and Samara unrecruited and seeing how far I can get.