259 réponses à ce sujet

[ERJAK2]

Collider wrote...

Lord Atlia wrote...
Dude you need to search the Tali video on youtube, I agreed with you before someone pointed me in that direction.  Tali was bisexual than edited hetereosexual much in the same way Kaidan was.

That doesn't matter. What matters is the final product. Characters go through many iterations. Had Bioware used their first concept of Jack for example, she would have pink hair. Ultimately they decided to have Tali be heterosexual.

So? How does that impact our desire to see the previous iterations. Still not straight. Bisexuality is a real thing.

[Collider]

DaeJi wrote...
So it's wrong to to make our feeling known? It's not like BioWare is unable to make changes to the game; in fact they plan too with the upcoming Hammerhead and Kasumi. All we are asking is for an update to certain characters that would not affect anyones' games that do not want them.

There's nothing wrong with letting your feelings be known. I'm 100% in favor of people saying whatever you want to. The problem I have with this thread is the reasoning behind it. That Bioware is intentionally giving the finger to bisexual/lesbian female players and (least importantly) male players who want to see lesbian loving. Also, the projections people are placing upon these characters - assuming they SHOULD be bisexual. If someone told that to you, assuming you are heterosexual or homosexual, wouldn't you be offended that they think they know everything about you? Sexuality is more dynamic and complex than that.

[Collider]

ERJAK2 wrote...
So? How does that impact our desire to see the previous iterations. Still not straight. Bisexuality is a real thing.

Obviously bisexuality is real. But there is no doubt that some women and men have experimented with their sexualities but realized they were not heterosexual, bisexual, or homosexual. Women have done things to other women in the hopes to entice men. There is also a possibility that if Jack was bisexual, she does not like female shepard in that way.

[DaeJi]

Collider wrote... If someone told that to you, assuming you are heterosexual or homosexual, wouldn't you be offended that they think they know everything about you? Sexuality is more dynamic and complex than that.

This part I want to reply to. I am a real human being, these are fictional characters. Their sexuality is not complex at all, it's what BioWare decides it is. And BioWare has the power to change it.

[ERJAK2]

Collider wrote...

DaeJi wrote...
So it's wrong to to make our feeling known? It's not like BioWare is unable to make changes to the game; in fact they plan too with the upcoming Hammerhead and Kasumi. All we are asking is for an update to certain characters that would not affect anyones' games that do not want them.

There's nothing wrong with letting your feelings be known. I'm 100% in favor of people saying whatever you want to. The problem I have with this thread is the reasoning behind it. That Bioware is intentionally giving the finger to bisexual/lesbian female players and (least importantly) male players who want to see lesbian loving. Also, the projections people are placing upon these characters - assuming they SHOULD be bisexual. If someone told that to you, assuming you are heterosexual or homosexual, wouldn't you be offended that they think they know everything about you? Sexuality is more dynamic and complex than that.

Yes, it is, and the limited conversations we've had with these characters are not enough to permanently establish it. All we have is what we want it to be.

Modifié par ERJAK2, 11 février 2010 - 01:49 .

[Nozybidaj]

Collider wrote...

Sexuality is more dynamic and complex than that.

Agreed, it is more complex than just saying "this person is straight, this person isn't".  Like Kelly said, what matters is the character of a person, not species or gender.

[Collider]

DaeJi wrote...
This part I want to reply to. I am a real human being, these are fictional characters. Their sexuality is not complex at all, it's what BioWare decides it is. And BioWare has the power to change it.

Their sexualities are not complex? Come on. Bioware creates complex characters - their games are an imitation of real life. Just deciding that "x character should be bisexual" is projecting your own biased interpretation of what bisexuals are like.
And you're completely right. Bioware has the power to change it, it's their decision. Just as they have the power to change anything about the game. Should they do it just because 5 people want to see lesbian pr0n? No. Should they do it because people are using their biases to psychoanalyze character's sexualities? No.

Modifié par Collider, 11 février 2010 - 01:52 .

[Lord Atlia]

Collider wrote...

Lord Atlia wrote...
Dude you need to search the Tali video on youtube, I agreed with you before someone pointed me in that direction.  Tali was bisexual than edited hetereosexual much in the same way Kaidan was.

That doesn't matter. What matters is the final product. Characters go through many iterations. Had Bioware used their first concept of Jack for example, she would have pink hair. Ultimately they decided to have Tali be heterosexual.

Indeed but the hetereosexual iteration of Tali came so late she still gave out misleading vibes to some peeps because they didn't clean up a lot of Tali's dialogue when it comes to female shepard.

[DaeJi]

Collider wrote...

Their sexualities are not complex? Come on. Bioware creates complex characters - their games are an imitation of real life. Just deciding that "x character should be bisexual" is projecting your own biased interpretation of what bisexuals are like.
And you're completely right. Bioware has the power to change it, it's their decision. Just as they have the power to change anything about the game. Should they do it just because 5 people want to see lesbian pr0n? No. Should they do it because people are using their biases to psychoanalyze character's sexualities? No.

They should do it because it would make the game a lot more fun for people.

[Funkenstein23]

DaeJi wrote...

Collider wrote... If someone told that to you, assuming you are heterosexual or homosexual, wouldn't you be offended that they think they know everything about you? Sexuality is more dynamic and complex than that.

This part I want to reply to. I am a real human being, these are fictional characters. Their sexuality is not complex at all, it's what BioWare decides it is. And BioWare has the power to change it.

BioWare also has the power to not. It is fairly apparent by the lack of homosexual characters that BW doesn't want them, and they are completely within their rights to not make any. Plus I for one would be very upset if BW made a big (and yes it is big) change to a character without making it complex. Sexuality isn't some toss away unimportant aspect of a character. It is in fact very defining of character, as any writer would tell you. If BW wants to make a new character that is gay, I won't say a word negative about it, but if they go around altering their characters to suit the whims of people who apparently don't care enough about those characters in the first place to let them be as they are, I for one would be very dissapointed.

[Lord Atlia]

Funkenstein23 wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

Collider wrote... If someone told that to you, assuming you are heterosexual or homosexual, wouldn't you be offended that they think they know everything about you? Sexuality is more dynamic and complex than that.

This part I want to reply to. I am a real human being, these are fictional characters. Their sexuality is not complex at all, it's what BioWare decides it is. And BioWare has the power to change it.

BioWare also has the power to not. It is fairly apparent by the lack of homosexual characters that BW doesn't want them, and they are completely within their rights to not make any. Plus I for one would be very upset if BW made a big (and yes it is big) change to a character without making it complex. Sexuality isn't some toss away unimportant aspect of a character. It is in fact very defining of character, as any writer would tell you. If BW wants to make a new character that is gay, I won't say a word negative about it, but if they go around altering their characters to suit the whims of people who apparently don't care enough about those characters in the first place to let them be as they are, I for one would be very dissapointed.

I agree but for me I'm not asking to make all characters bisexual (this would kill character integrity) or even one of the characters bisexual.  I'm wondering why an author writes bisexual characters (Tali and Kaidan), they are bisexual through the VA recording period, and than cut later on.  It makes sense the first time, maybe they didn't want Shepard to be gay and decided that late in the ME1 design process.  But they also do it again in ME2.

[-Area51-Silent]

Daeji, let me ask you, if they did make the change, but the character no longer had that geniune feel to it within that change, would you still be happy about it? I am not saying they wouldn't put a lot of work into the change or that it would lack detail, just that it would lack feeling.



If it was just added in to make some people happy but never intended that's more than likely what you would get. it's no longer an expression of the individuals making the game, and is now just code and polygons.



just somthing to think about

[WilliamShatner]

From what I remember from the old boards the Kaidan/M Ashley/F romances were cut for time reasons.

[DaeJi]

-Area51-Silent wrote...

Daeji, let me ask you, if they did make the change, but the character no longer had that geniune feel to it within that change, would you still be happy about it? I am not saying they wouldn't put a lot of work into the change or that it would lack detail, just that it would lack feeling.

To answer you question directly, no I would not be too happy with it. However, as I said before, their sexuality does not bleed into their other traits. And I do trust them enough to do it right, like they did with Garrus and Tali, two examples of BioWare altering their vision for fan enjoyment. I trust them.

[Lord Atlia]

WilliamShatner wrote...

From what I remember from the old boards the Kaidan/M Ashley/F romances were cut for time reasons.

See this makes sense, the same thing probably is what happened to Tali because the straight romances took priorty due to a larger market.  Oh well, now that all my Shepards can't romance Tali I may have to branch out or fly solo.

[Naltair]

Lord Atlia wrote...

Collider wrote...

Lord Atlia wrote...
Dude you need to search the Tali video on youtube, I agreed with you before someone pointed me in that direction.  Tali was bisexual than edited hetereosexual much in the same way Kaidan was.

That doesn't matter. What matters is the final product. Characters go through many iterations. Had Bioware used their first concept of Jack for example, she would have pink hair. Ultimately they decided to have Tali be heterosexual.

Indeed but the hetereosexual iteration of Tali came so late she still gave out misleading vibes to some peeps because they didn't clean up a lot of Tali's dialogue when it comes to female shepard.

Fallacy we have no idea when this material was actually cut changed or removed.  There is dialog for Tali during the Mordin mission, there is dialog for Samara in Grunt's mission, that content for whatever reason was cut.  There may be whole missions that were cut or repurporsed as was the case with Bring down the Sky.  The final area, where you face the Batarian leader and have to make that choice that was repurposed content originally used for the mission to get Liara.

You can't just point to cut evidence and then say oh my god BioWare is against us this is the proof.  All that proves is that content was cut, for time reasons, the vision, or maybe because Casey just picked it randomly out of a hat.  We don;' have enough evidence to make the call of when and why it was cut.

We just know that it was.

[ERJAK2]

-Area51-Silent wrote...

Daeji, let me ask you, if they did make the change, but the character no longer had that geniune feel to it within that change, would you still be happy about it? I am not saying they wouldn't put a lot of work into the change or that it would lack detail, just that it would lack feeling.

If it was just added in to make some people happy but never intended that's more than likely what you would get. it's no longer an expression of the individuals making the game, and is now just code and polygons.

just somthing to think about

Not Daeji, but I can say that as long as it had as much content as the other romances, I would deal with it. I would hate that that was what I was reduced to, but it's better than the NOTHING I have now.

[Naltair]

Lord Atlia wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...

From what I remember from the old boards the Kaidan/M Ashley/F romances were cut for time reasons.

See this makes sense, the same thing probably is what happened to Tali because the straight romances took priorty due to a larger market.  Oh well, now that all my Shepards can't romance Tali I may have to branch out or fly solo.

Again we don't know why that material along with numerous other dialogs were cut.

For example if you mod the PC to get access to all characters the characters have dialog for missions they would not be available for.  I.e. Thane having dialog during Mordin's mission or Garrus recruitment mission for example.  That is a ridiculous amount of dialog when you multiply it by the multitude of characters.

Even Legion has cut dialog.

[ERJAK2]

Naltair wrote...

Fallacy we have no idea when this material was actually cut changed or removed. 

HEY!!! That's MY thing sir! I demand satisfaction! Pistols at dawn!

[-Area51-Silent]

But the sexuality of their character is raw emotion, that emotion is the vision or the emotion that is being felt by the person developing the character directly, its a projection of that emotion into a medium that we can see and experience.



Creating somthing that didnt have that, even as simple as a same sex relationship that the artist doesnt feel the emotions for (not to say that they don't completely just not for w/e character), it could still be added in, I just don't believe you would get what you are looking for still.

[Naltair]

-Area51-Silent wrote...

But the sexuality of their character is raw emotion, that emotion is the vision or the emotion that is being felt by the person developing the character directly, its a projection of that emotion into a medium that we can see and experience.

Creating somthing that didnt have that, even as simple as a same sex relationship that the artist doesnt feel the emotions for (not to say that they don't completely just not for w/e character), it could still be added in, I just don't believe you would get what you are looking for still.

Considering how much some people are getting from what isn't even there they may be pleased with anything.

[DaeJi]

-Area51-Silent wrote...

But the sexuality of their character is raw emotion, that emotion is the vision or the emotion that is being felt by the person developing the character directly, its a projection of that emotion into a medium that we can see and experience.

Creating somthing that didnt have that, even as simple as a same sex relationship that the artist doesnt feel the emotions for (not to say that they don't completely just not for w/e character), it could still be added in, I just don't believe you would get what you are looking for still.

Maybe as a writer, I'm coming at this a bit differently. But basically, that emotion and vision and stuff... can be faked. Many of the greatest literally works of all time, were done for pay (example: One Flew Over The Cuckcoo's Nest). Writing can be a science, and BioWare are masters of it (if it were not, tropes would not exist).

[Kyero]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Casey is trying to retcon the F/F relationship in ME1 as well.

He seems to think the asari are asexual now, which is funny.

there was no F/F in ME1. cuz liara isnt a actual FEMALE! if you don't understand why, well i feel sorry for you. and judging you think kelly is > thane veryone in the game. you dont.

Modifié par Kyero, 11 février 2010 - 02:26 .

[-Area51-Silent]

Naltair wrote...

-Area51-Silent wrote...

But the sexuality of their character is raw emotion, that emotion is the vision or the emotion that is being felt by the person developing the character directly, its a projection of that emotion into a medium that we can see and experience.

Creating somthing that didnt have that, even as simple as a same sex relationship that the artist doesnt feel the emotions for (not to say that they don't completely just not for w/e character), it could still be added in, I just don't believe you would get what you are looking for still.

Considering how much some people are getting from what isn't even there they may be pleased with anything.

perhaps, but if you were to get what you want, and it was less than you expected, you are left disappointed and still empty towards what you were given.

for example I say I want a red car, I look out a foggy window and think I see a corvette, I finally get to the vehicle and it turns out to be a red soapbox car. I walk away disappointed.

[Naltair]

-Area51-Silent wrote...

Naltair wrote...

-Area51-Silent wrote...

But the sexuality of their character is raw emotion, that emotion is the vision or the emotion that is being felt by the person developing the character directly, its a projection of that emotion into a medium that we can see and experience.

Creating somthing that didnt have that, even as simple as a same sex relationship that the artist doesnt feel the emotions for (not to say that they don't completely just not for w/e character), it could still be added in, I just don't believe you would get what you are looking for still.

Considering how much some people are getting from what isn't even there they may be pleased with anything.

perhaps, but if you were to get what you want, and it was less than you expected, you are left disappointed and still empty towards what you were given.

for example I say I want a red car, I look out a foggy window and think I see a corvette, I finally get to the vehicle and it turns out to be a red soapbox car. I walk away disappointed.

I agree.