259 réponses à ce sujet

[Ninja Ataris]

I liked the romances in ME2 a lot more than ME1 as well. I found them much more tastefully done.

I wouldn't be against seeing F/F relationships. Keep in mind to keep the balance however, I'd rather see higher quality on the stuff we get than a lot of stuff. Quality over quantity. I think Bioware might be saving Liara for ME3 though, which is why we didn't really get a new Asari romance in ME2.

Modifié par Ninja Ataris, 10 février 2010 - 11:56 .

[screwoffreg]

Just because you don't want to sleep with a man doesn't mean Fem Sheps were denied. You got to hook up with:



Best Friend (Garrus)

Rough and Tumble Handsome Guy (Jacob)

Mysterious and Silent Type (Thane)



Males got:



Assertive and Succesful (Miranda)

Shy, Geeky, and Attached (Tali)

Damaged, Complex (Zero)



The issue of same sex romances is certainly one to discuss, and some of Bioware's answers are unfulfilling in regards to this. I think some constraints were put on the company and they may have tried to slip in some homage to this the best they could (Kelly, wink and nod with Liara). Bear in mind EA does have SOME say and we may never know truly what happened in the backrooms of Bioware.



Also, they may have been completely honest with us and come from a story perspective that Shepard, this particular unique individual, did not have those inclinations. I do not think this is "intolerant" so much as somewhat divergent from the history, but not necessarily offensive. Bioware has always been at the forefront of accepting same sex romances in games as far back as hints of it in Baldurs Gate to full blown male and female options in Dragon Age. Very few games give you even romance options, much more attempting to touch the sensitive subject of m/m or f/f. We have to give the company SOME credit here, folks.

[tausra]

Funkenstein23 wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

LostScout wrote...
Male Shepard can get a scene with Miranda or Jack.  So yes, much more denied.

Well, some male Shepards wanted to get closer with Jacob or ease Thane's pain in the twilight of his life. What about those Shepards?

You see, this is where I run into a problem with the gay-romance support crowd. Its totally reasonable to want a gay or bisexual character for homosexual Shep to romance. The problem I have is when people start talking about retconning characters into homosexuality. Thane was happily married for many years to a woman, why would he suddenly turn gay? Jacob had a romantic relationship with Miranda, why would he too, magically turn gay all of the sudden?

You can not know all the things Thane has ever done in his life.  He might have been entirely gay, until being entranced by his wife.  Jacob might have experimented, he might not have.  All we see as Shepard is a brief, important moment in the character's lives, not their whole lives.  No one knows the entirety of any characters life, save Grunt.

[Whailor]

Meh, starting to get tired with all these "we want F/F romance with every char which walks past my FemShep" or "we want M/M romance with every char which walks past my MaleShep".. Sheesh. Maybe these chars as such are not interested in this? Maybe quarians never go F/F or M/M because it's pointless, doesn't give any offsprings and you know, there are no 18 years old Korean girls in space these pairs can just adopt. I personally do not want to see these kind of options everywhere and with every char. Heck, it's also called "sexual minority" for a reason, that is, most people are not into it.

[Ninja Ataris]

I'd like to add I'm against retconning or changing anything that's already done as well. There's always ME3 though.

[tausra]

screwoffreg wrote...
Also, they may have been completely honest with us and come from a story perspective that Shepard, this particular unique individual, did not have those inclinations..

In a back handed and insulting way all they were saying is drop the topic, we don't care.  What makes Shepard any different from Revan (Kotor), The Student (Jade Empire) and the Warden (DA:O)?  All of those characters had a set ending and a set story, but all had the options for exploring different romantic directions, including gay and lesbian ones.  The quote by BioWare is an insult to anyone with a brain, a empty defense of bigotry and idiocy.

[DaeJi]

I don't see how adding Jacob to the male Shepard romance list or Tali to the female Shepard list would be a "retcon." The story is not static, nor are the characters. There are certain constants, sure, but sexuality is not one of them (meaning, that can be altered without affecting any other aspects of the characters, namely their personality).

Besides, we often use the current romance options in these discussions not because we want them (although a lot of people do), but because they are already in the game and thus give us something to discuss.

Modifié par DaeJi, 11 février 2010 - 12:08 .

[tausra]

Whailor wrote...
Heck, it's also called "sexual minority" for a reason, that is, most people are not into it.

In real life you are correct, but in a game where men can play women and women men, a fantasy world where the player has control minority is null.  Straight men may play a lesbian shepard, Lesbian women can play a gay Shepard, Straight women can play a straigh Male shepard.  The "sexual minority" is an empty broken defense.

[screwoffreg]

tausra wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...
Also, they may have been completely honest with us and come from a story perspective that Shepard, this particular unique individual, did not have those inclinations..

In a back handed and insulting way all they were saying is drop the topic, we don't care.  What makes Shepard any different from Revan (Kotor), The Student (Jade Empire) and the Warden (DA:O)?  All of those characters had a set ending and a set story, but all had the options for exploring different romantic directions, including gay and lesbian ones.  The quote by BioWare is an insult to anyone with a brain, a empty defense of bigotry and idiocy.

I agree with you their answers leave much to be desired, but we will NEVER truly know their intentions and we cannot unless they basically say "EA MADE US, THEY HATE GAYS!!!" or something similiar.  In my opinion, as well as yours it seems, it stinks, but I also like to approach things rationally and based on the evidence we have, there isn't a clear case for malice or for just honest story driven reasons.  I don't think it is because Bioware is bigoted itself, hell, one if the main writers for Dragon Age and other games is himself gay as are probably others at the company who influence the stories. 

We will never truly know and if any solace is to be had, since ME 2 sold so well they will perhaps be more able to be "liberal" in ME 3.

[-Area51-Silent]

All arguments aside as to why it ISN'T there, why should it become necessary for them to write their characters as bi-sexual? I am not saying that they shouldn't have the option and be able to express homosexuality in one of their games, but it shouldn't be a necessity if they do not want to write their characters that way.



While I agree its a little inconsistant with Femshep and Kelly, and some argument can be made with the Asari (not going to rehash it), If Bioware wants to write a game like Mass Effect without having the protagonist be gay/bi then they should have that option, just like if they want to write a game where the protagonist can be gay/bi they should have that option too (like in Dragon Age).



It's not for us, the gamers to dictate to them how their art should be. It's for us to experience what they have created through different guiding decisions, in order to experience the story, the art, and the acting.

[Ninja Ataris]

DaeJi wrote...

I don't see how adding Jacob to the male Shepard romance list or Tali to the female Shepard list would be a "retcon." The story is not static, nor are the characters. There are certain constants, sure, but sexuality is not one of them (meaning, that can be altered without affecting any other aspects of the characters, namely their personality).

Besides, we often use the current romance options in these discussions not because we want them (although a lot of people do), but because they are already in the game and thus give us something to discuss.

It does. None of them has shown any interest at all in same-gender sexuality or relationships. You don't just walk up a morning and turn bi or gay.

[Lord Atlia]

LostScout wrote...

I think the main reason there are more F/F threads is that ME2 clearly went backwards from ME1in that department and they are attempting to deny that something that was clearly there has been removed and they are trying to justify it with shallow rationalizations.

This, I think Bioware just needs to release an honest answer for everyone to digest.  On a side note, why do people always bash EA, EA publishes Dante's Inferno which has sex, nudity, and religious themes.  Whatever the reason it was Bioware's call, simple as that, don't try to scapegoat it to someone.  

[DaeJi]

-Area51-Silent wrote...
It's not for us, the gamers to dictate to them how their art should be. It's for us to experience what they have created through different guiding decisions, in order to experience the story, the art, and the acting.

By putting this game out there for the masses, they have invited people to critique it and voice displeasure where it is found.

[WilliamShatner]

DaeJi wrote...

I don't see how adding Jacob to the male Shepard romance list or Tali to the female Shepard list would be a "retcon." The story is not static, nor are the characters. There are certain constants, sure, but sexuality is not one of them (meaning, that can be altered without affecting any other aspects of the characters, namely their personality).

Besides, we often use the current romance options in these discussions not because we want them (although a lot of people do), but because they are already in the game and thus give us something to discuss.

Indeed, it's merely adding an option.  It's not changing their romance for the opposite sex.  And neither of them say that they aren't interested in a M/M or F/F romance so it's not changing their character.  If they did I would understand the accusation of retconning.

[DaeJi]

Ninja Ataris wrote...

It does. None of them has shown any interest at all in same-gender sexuality or relationships. You don't just walk up a morning and turn bi or gay.

I'm a real human being. Anyway, that is only my option, shaped by the nature of the story and game.

[Ninja Ataris]

tausra wrote...

Whailor wrote...
Heck, it's also called "sexual minority" for a reason, that is, most people are not into it.

In real life you are correct, but in a game where men can play women and women men, a fantasy world where the player has control minority is null.  Straight men may play a lesbian shepard, Lesbian women can play a gay Shepard, Straight women can play a straigh Male shepard.  The "sexual minority" is an empty broken defense.

I'd say it has with immersion to do as well. If every single LI start turning bi I'd question the validity of it all. Sexual minority is not a broken defense as such, since all the species in ME has to reproduce through sexual acts, thus it's logical to assume 50% of the population aren't bi or gay.

[WilliamShatner]

Ninja Ataris wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

I don't see how adding Jacob to the male Shepard romance list or Tali to the female Shepard list would be a "retcon." The story is not static, nor are the characters. There are certain constants, sure, but sexuality is not one of them (meaning, that can be altered without affecting any other aspects of the characters, namely their personality).

Besides, we often use the current romance options in these discussions not because we want them (although a lot of people do), but because they are already in the game and thus give us something to discuss.

It does. None of them has shown any interest at all in same-gender sexuality or relationships. You don't just walk up a morning and turn bi or gay.

Tali definitely shows interest in Female Shepard.

[screwoffreg]

Ninja Ataris wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

I don't see how adding Jacob to the male Shepard romance list or Tali to the female Shepard list would be a "retcon." The story is not static, nor are the characters. There are certain constants, sure, but sexuality is not one of them (meaning, that can be altered without affecting any other aspects of the characters, namely their personality).

Besides, we often use the current romance options in these discussions not because we want them (although a lot of people do), but because they are already in the game and thus give us something to discuss.

It does. None of them has shown any interest at all in same-gender sexuality or relationships. You don't just walk up a morning and turn bi or gay.

No, but at the same time it is generally accepted that sexuality isn't an either or proposition.  Rather, it is a matter of degrees of tendency towards a certain orientation.  In other words, there are no ONE HUNDRED PERCENT Straights or Gays, just people with an inclination towards one or the other that may or may not be strong.  With that said, it is not unheard of that in the right circumstances, "manly' men or "straight-laced" women would desire to be with someone of the same sex.  Look at military situations in history and the present where male on male contact leads to the development of such feelings, or in some cases where it is even encouraged (Theban band). 

[Funkenstein23]

tausra wrote...

Funkenstein23 wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

LostScout wrote...
Male Shepard can get a scene with Miranda or Jack.  So yes, much more denied.

Well, some male Shepards wanted to get closer with Jacob or ease Thane's pain in the twilight of his life. What about those Shepards?

You see, this is where I run into a problem with the gay-romance support crowd. Its totally reasonable to want a gay or bisexual character for homosexual Shep to romance. The problem I have is when people start talking about retconning characters into homosexuality. Thane was happily married for many years to a woman, why would he suddenly turn gay? Jacob had a romantic relationship with Miranda, why would he too, magically turn gay all of the sudden?

You can not know all the things Thane has ever done in his life.  He might have been entirely gay, until being entranced by his wife.  Jacob might have experimented, he might not have.  All we see as Shepard is a brief, important moment in the character's lives, not their whole lives.  No one knows the entirety of any characters life, save Grunt.

I would disagree. You learn enough about the characters to have a decent understanding of their pasts. Thane for example was most likely never involved with anyone until he met his wife. The dialogue seems to indicate this, with many comments on his long and lonely life before meeting his wife. BioWare gives you basically the entire life stories of their characters. I know who Miranda's parents are, what her childhood was like, why and how she enlisted with Cerberus, her personality, her tendencies, and more, and I didn't even romance her. The characters are much more set than you are giving them credit for. Which is why I think it would be selfish, and very poor role-playing to want them to change sexualities. I understand the gay community was screwed in ME2, but that shouldn't be fixed with a retcon, it should be fixed with new characters.

[tausra]

Ninja Ataris wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

I don't see how adding Jacob to the male Shepard romance list or Tali to the female Shepard list would be a "retcon." The story is not static, nor are the characters. There are certain constants, sure, but sexuality is not one of them (meaning, that can be altered without affecting any other aspects of the characters, namely their personality).

Besides, we often use the current romance options in these discussions not because we want them (although a lot of people do), but because they are already in the game and thus give us something to discuss.

It does. None of them has shown any interest at all in same-gender sexuality or relationships. You don't just walk up a morning and turn bi or gay.

You can not know all the things Thane has ever done in his life. He might have been entirely gay, until being entranced by his wife. Jacob might have experimented, he might not have.  All we see as Shepard is a brief, important moment in the character's lives, not their whole lives.  No one knows the entirety of any characters life, save Grunt.  No one is saying to suddenly turn gay but there are ways of presenting an option.

Modifié par tausra, 11 février 2010 - 12:14 .

[HAGA NAGA]

Dusty Everman wrote...

Does doing this with Kelly count as cheating on your ME1 love interest?  Kelly’s a free spirit, and as such can be more of a bed buddy, hence why “romancing” her doesn’t turn down the picture frame on your desk, or get in the way of your romancing any of the main ME2 love interests.  Will this affect anything in ME3?  Well, we haven’t made the game yet, but the fact that you had Kelly up to your cabin is in your save game.

i thought that quote would shed some light on the whole "Kelly wasn't really "romancing", "There is no bi or lesbian Femshep in ME" type posts that have been popping up here and there. there ya go, straight from Bioware.

[Ninja Ataris]

tausra wrote...

Ninja Ataris wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

I
don't see how adding Jacob to the male Shepard romance list or Tali to
the female Shepard list would be a "retcon." The story is not static,
nor are the characters. There are certain constants, sure, but
sexuality is not one of them (meaning, that can be altered without
affecting any other aspects of the characters, namely their
personality).

Besides, we often use the current romance
options in these discussions not because we want them (although a lot
of people do), but because they are already in the game and thus give
us something to discuss.

It does. None of them has
shown any interest at all in same-gender sexuality or relationships.
You don't just walk up a morning and turn bi or gay.

You
can not know all the things Thane has ever done in his life. He might
have been entirely gay, until being entranced by his wife. Jacob might
have experimented, he might not have.  All we see as Shepard is a
brief, important moment in the character's lives, not their whole
lives.  No one knows the entirety of any characters life, save Grunt. 
No one is saying to suddenly turn gay but there are ways of presenting
an option.

You'd think there'd be something hinting that though, were that the case.

You don't know anything about it either. They might all be homophobic for all we know, it works both ways.

Modifié par Ninja Ataris, 11 février 2010 - 12:14 .

[ERJAK2]

DaeJi wrote...

I don't see how adding Jacob to the male Shepard romance list or Tali to the female Shepard list would be a "retcon." The story is not static, nor are the characters. There are certain constants, sure, but sexuality is not one of them (meaning, that can be altered without affecting any other aspects of the characters, namely their personality).

See, most people believe that you can call out someone with homosexual tendencies like you can someone with blonde hair. If they're a guy who isn't obviously feminine or doesn't wear REALLY nice matching clothes and sunglasses, they can't be gay.

If it's a women who isn't obviously masculine(Femshep arguably fits here so HA!) or ugly or shorthaired or etc, they can't be a lesbian. 

[-Area51-Silent]

DaeJi wrote...

-Area51-Silent wrote...
It's not for us, the gamers to dictate to them how their art should be. It's for us to experience what they have created through different guiding decisions, in order to experience the story, the art, and the acting.

By putting this game out there for the masses, they have invited people to critique it and voice displeasure where it is found.

As in all art, this is very true! you should be able to make an opinion and critique the game. However, like any art, the lack of an element does not mean intolerance. The lack of Homosexuality in Mass Effect should not equate to intolerance though some of the posts I have read on these boards imply that.