259 réponses à ce sujet

[ERJAK2]

DaeJi wrote...

Funkenstein23 wrote...


I'm sorry but that is a preposterous claim. Your argument is that because something is not directly stated it could be true. That is no different than assuming that Jacob made a living selling shrimp out of a van. I may not know everything about Jacob's pre-service history, but as an intelligent person I am able to make the assumption that he was never a shrimp-salesman. The game never alludes to such in any way, at all. Similarly, the game never, not even once, gives any indication that Thane has ever been involved in a homosexual relationship.

I think what their point is is that because their is a lot unknown about them, homosexual attraction could be worked in seamlessly.

While I agree that it could be done(with Jacob more than Thane/Garrus) I also think introducing a new character would be a better option. Actually , for M/M or F/F it would be the best option. Unfortunately, it looks like we only get one more character(Kasumi better be a femshep LI.)

[Brahlis]

Personally, I think they should offer this stuff for people via DLC outside of the vanilla game. I mean, why the hell not? Same for ME3.

[Ninja Ataris]

DaeJi wrote...

Ninja Ataris wrote...

I'd say it has with immersion to do as well. If every single LI start turning bi I'd question the validity of it all. Sexual minority is not a broken defense as such, since all the species in ME has to reproduce through sexual acts, thus it's logical to assume 50% of the population aren't bi or gay.

If you were looking a large sample, sure. But in small groups those ratios do not hold true. As for love interests turning bi-sexual, again this story is not static nor are the characters; the fact that you, the player, have control over how they handle certain situations (loyalty missions) and fate (suicide mission) should make this clear. Hell, t.v. shows have less room than that for change and still manage to pull it off. Making Jacob bi-sexual through a DLC would be less jarring than when they made Willow gay in Buffy: The Vampire Slayer.

It'd be good not to see ME fall into the likes of Buffy tbh.

And again, you don't turn gay or bi because you accompany a great man or woman, or go through ordeals with someone. You never have control of their actions. Your actions affect them but you cannot change who the characters are. Band of Brothers does not end with everyone turning gay or bisexual.

IMO, they should not change the old characters. Implement new ones via DLC and make them bi or gay, sure. Keep it balanced and don't go about effing up the characters that are already established. Go write fanfic or something if you REALLY want to see certain characters in certain situations.

Or is that too much to ask?

[ERJAK2]

Luc0s wrote...

See it from the positive side: Atleast your lesbian femsheps have it easy on staying true to Liara in ME2. It's not that simple for us malesheps with a playful chick with the perfect body, a hot sadistic sexual beasts and a shy cute quarian.

You're positive outlook makes me feel slightly better. I have had ZERO problem staying loyal to Liara, though I wish Femshep could hug her and tell her that she still loves Liara because poor Li just looks so heartbroken and...and...:crying::crying::crying::crying::crying::crying::crying::crying::crying::crying:

[Nynaeve]

-Area51-Silent wrote...

frij wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

-Area51-Silent wrote...
It's not for us, the gamers to dictate to them how their art should be. It's for us to experience what they have created through different guiding decisions, in order to experience the story, the art, and the acting.

By putting this game out there for the masses, they have invited people to critique it and voice displeasure where it is found.

Definately, The game is made for the fans and though I don't agree with the "lets just put everything in to please everybody", there is definately room in the mass effect universe to cater to same-sex relationships. The reason these kinds of threads keep popping up is because us, as fans realise the lack of same-sex relationships as standard is a massive hole in what is an amazing franchise

Perhaps, and I do agree that this is digital art which has the room to be changed. However making a character gay/bi/straight for reasons outside of the artists vision of what the character is or is not, is dictating to the artist what his/her vision should be.

While I agree this lacks that particular element, and it is made very clear by the playing community, perhaps in this particular media, that element is left out (I don't know why) because in this particular media it is not part of the artists vision.

While I agree that artists make their characters with a vision of who they are as a person, what they want them to be etc., there is still alot of room for individual interpretation. Its amazing how people can see things in certain characters that another player may not necessarily pick up on.. it just means that we can use our imagination and fill in the gaps...

[Corti78]

ERJAK2 wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

See it from the positive side: Atleast your lesbian femsheps have it easy on staying true to Liara in ME2. It's not that simple for us malesheps with a playful chick with the perfect body, a hot sadistic sexual beasts and a shy cute quarian.

You're positive outlook makes me feel slightly better. I have had ZERO problem staying loyal to Liara, though I wish Femshep could hug her and tell her that she still loves Liara because poor Li just looks so heartbroken and...and...:crying::crying::crying::crying::crying::crying::crying::crying::crying::crying:

Yep, all us Liara fans know this feeling. Hopefully bioware doesn't screw us over in ME3.

[ERJAK2]

Brahlis wrote...

Personally, I think they should offer this stuff for people via DLC outside of the vanilla game. I mean, why the hell not? Same for ME3.

ME3 has Liara(WHICH BETTER BE IN DAM IT!). But I don't disagree beyond that. I'd be fine with even having to pay for it.


I can't point out the similarities to that and taxing certain groups because last time I did my account got a warning.

[Funkenstein23]

DaeJi wrote...

Funkenstein23 wrote...


I'm sorry but that is a preposterous claim. Your argument is that because something is not directly stated it could be true. That is no different than assuming that Jacob made a living selling shrimp out of a van. I may not know everything about Jacob's pre-service history, but as an intelligent person I am able to make the assumption that he was never a shrimp-salesman. The game never alludes to such in any way, at all. Similarly, the game never, not even once, gives any indication that Thane has ever been involved in a homosexual relationship.

I think what their point is is that because their is a lot unknown about them, homosexual attraction could be worked in seamlessly.

Right, and I understand their point but my point is that no, it could not. Jack is bi, and Tali flirts with femshep and as such they are prime candidates for an f/f romance. Thane on the other hand not only does not display such tendencies but also has his very own special dialogue with maleshep about how its nice to have a friend since before now his only relationships were a romantic one with a wife and a parental one with his son. So if he were sudden;y made gay, a part of his character would change, and it would be a retcon.

[WilliamShatner]

ERJAK2 wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

Funkenstein23 wrote...


I'm sorry but that is a preposterous claim. Your argument is that because something is not directly stated it could be true. That is no different than assuming that Jacob made a living selling shrimp out of a van. I may not know everything about Jacob's pre-service history, but as an intelligent person I am able to make the assumption that he was never a shrimp-salesman. The game never alludes to such in any way, at all. Similarly, the game never, not even once, gives any indication that Thane has ever been involved in a homosexual relationship.

I think what their point is is that because their is a lot unknown about them, homosexual attraction could be worked in seamlessly.

While I agree that it could be done(with Jacob more than Thane/Garrus) I also think introducing a new character would be a better option. Actually , for M/M or F/F it would be the best option. Unfortunately, it looks like we only get one more character(Kasumi better be a femshep LI.)

Sadly I can't see Kasumi being anything more than a female Zaeed.

Hopes to be pleasantly surprised.

[Brahlis]

ERJAK2 wrote...
I can't point out the similarities to that and taxing certain groups because last time I did my account got a warning.

It certainly seems fair to me.

You have a small group that wants an aspect changed for their own playthrough when the vast majority either doesn't want it or doesn't care. It wouldn't right or cost efficient for Bioware to change it in the vanilla game because:

A. They're putting time and resources into changing something for a small group, and it being in the vanilla game wouldn't give them a pay-off for it,

B. That'd ****** people off

C. They could appease the group AND be free of retconning by offering it as DLC. That way only the people that want it have it as a part of their game.

... and Bioware makes more money. Well, that's not really a bad thing, imo. I couldn't see it being more than 500-750 points.

That would only be talking about current characters being reworked. Of course new characters that are bi/gay wouldn't be DLC. Actually, I think that (DLC for current) would be a pretty good option, actually. Everyone gets what they want and everyone is happy in the end.

Modifié par Brahlis, 11 février 2010 - 12:51 .

[DaeJi]

ERJAK2 wrote...


While I agree that it could be done(with Jacob more than Thane/Garrus) I also think introducing a new character would be a better option. Actually , for M/M or F/F it would be the best option. Unfortunately, it looks like we only get one more character(Kasumi better be a femshep LI.)

I disagree, I think several characters lend themselves well to being same sex love interests (namely Tali, Jack, and Thane). Adding a new character is a huge undertaking, one that involves a lot of hours, money, and resources. Patching in current ones is much less work for the same results. However, I am all for new characters being same-sex options, more so if there is a new character who is a M/M option.

[ERJAK2]

Funkenstein23 wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

Funkenstein23 wrote...


I'm sorry but that is a preposterous claim. Your argument is that because something is not directly stated it could be true. That is no different than assuming that Jacob made a living selling shrimp out of a van. I may not know everything about Jacob's pre-service history, but as an intelligent person I am able to make the assumption that he was never a shrimp-salesman. The game never alludes to such in any way, at all. Similarly, the game never, not even once, gives any indication that Thane has ever been involved in a homosexual relationship.

I think what their point is is that because their is a lot unknown about them, homosexual attraction could be worked in seamlessly.

Right, and I understand their point but my point is that no, it could not. Jack is bi, and Tali flirts with femshep and as such they are prime candidates for an f/f romance. Thane on the other hand not only does not display such tendencies but also has his very own special dialogue with maleshep about how its nice to have a friend since before now his only relationships were a romantic one with a wife and a parental one with his son. So if he were sudden;y made gay, a part of his character would change, and it would be a retcon.

You both have good points, however, these arguments are quite a bit more subjective than say Tali/Jack. There is more evidence for Funk to be sure, but it's conceivable that a well written story addition could make either Thane or Jacob a possible M/M option. It would be difficult to do tactfully, but it could be done. Garrus...not so much. Don't know why though. Huh.

[WilliamShatner]

I would bet money on a "Romance" or "Squad Interaction" pack selling more than a new mission or weapons and armour.

[tausra]

Funkenstein23 wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

Funkenstein23 wrote...


I'm sorry but that is a preposterous claim. Your argument is that because something is not directly stated it could be true. That is no different than assuming that Jacob made a living selling shrimp out of a van. I may not know everything about Jacob's pre-service history, but as an intelligent person I am able to make the assumption that he was never a shrimp-salesman. The game never alludes to such in any way, at all. Similarly, the game never, not even once, gives any indication that Thane has ever been involved in a homosexual relationship.

I think what their point is is that because their is a lot unknown about them, homosexual attraction could be worked in seamlessly.

Right, and I understand their point but my point is that no, it could not. Jack is bi, and Tali flirts with femshep and as such they are prime candidates for an f/f romance. Thane on the other hand not only does not display such tendencies but also has his very own special dialogue with maleshep about how its nice to have a friend since before now his only relationships were a romantic one with a wife and a parental one with his son. So if he were sudden;y made gay, a part of his character would change, and it would be a retcon.

Change his lines by adding one or two more is an overhauling retcon?  As upset as I am with BioWare, I know they have some of the best writers.  I am certain that it is well within their capable hands to alter and add a handful of lines in a convincing manner.   Off of the top of my head:

"Shepard you are the only meaningful relationship I've had since my Wife's passing.  Before her there were many... encounters, but nothing more meaningful than a rainstorm on (Hanar homeworld). And even as I die, there is no one I would rather spend what could be my last night with."

[WilliamShatner]

DaeJi wrote...

ERJAK2 wrote...


While I agree that it could be done(with Jacob more than Thane/Garrus) I also think introducing a new character would be a better option. Actually , for M/M or F/F it would be the best option. Unfortunately, it looks like we only get one more character(Kasumi better be a femshep LI.)

I disagree, I think several characters lend themselves well to being same sex love interests (namely Tali, Jack, and Thane). Adding a new character is a huge undertaking, one that involves a lot of hours, money, and resources. Patching in current ones is much less work for the same results. However, I am all for new characters being same-sex options, more so if there is a new character who is a M/M option.

And the fact that most, if not all of the F/F Tali romance dialog is already recorded.

[Ninja Ataris]

DaeJi wrote...

ERJAK2 wrote...


While I agree that it could be done(with Jacob more than Thane/Garrus) I also think introducing a new character would be a better option. Actually , for M/M or F/F it would be the best option. Unfortunately, it looks like we only get one more character(Kasumi better be a femshep LI.)

I disagree, I think several characters lend themselves well to being same sex love interests (namely Tali, Jack, and Thane). Adding a new character is a huge undertaking, one that involves a lot of hours, money, and resources. Patching in current ones is much less work for the same results. However, I am all for new characters being same-sex options, more so if there is a new character who is a M/M option.

And what would the majority of the people that play the game get the most out of? A new squadmember or changing the old members?

I can imagine how hilarious the headlines for the DLC would be. "Bioware releases DLC pack that turns your squadmembers bisexual or gay! Get it today for only 800 MSP!"

[ERJAK2]

Brahlis wrote...

ERJAK2 wrote...
I can't point out the similarities to that and taxing certain groups because last time I did my account got a warning.

It certainly seems fair to me.

You have a small group that wants an aspect changed for their own playthrough when the vast majority either doesn't want it or doesn't care. It wouldn't right or cost efficient for Bioware to change it in the vanilla game because:

A. They're putting time and resources into changing something for a small group, and it being in the vanilla game wouldn't give them a pay-off for it,

B. That'd ****** people off

C. They could appease the group AND be free of retconning by offering it as DLC. That way only the people that want it have it as a part of their game.

... and Bioware makes more money. Well, that's not really a bad thing, imo. I couldn't see it being more than 500-750 points.

That would only be talking about current characters being reworked. Of course new characters that are bi/gay wouldn't be DLC. Actually, I think that (DLC for current) would be a pretty good option, actually. Everyone gets what they want and everyone is happy in the end.

Which is why it doesn't bother me. I understand the people who actually want it are in the minority and as such would be willing to pay for it's inclusion. However, complete exclusion is wrong because the people who actively oppose it are an even smaller minority.

[ERJAK2]

Ninja Ataris wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

ERJAK2 wrote...


While I agree that it could be done(with Jacob more than Thane/Garrus) I also think introducing a new character would be a better option. Actually , for M/M or F/F it would be the best option. Unfortunately, it looks like we only get one more character(Kasumi better be a femshep LI.)

I disagree, I think several characters lend themselves well to being same sex love interests (namely Tali, Jack, and Thane). Adding a new character is a huge undertaking, one that involves a lot of hours, money, and resources. Patching in current ones is much less work for the same results. However, I am all for new characters being same-sex options, more so if there is a new character who is a M/M option.

And what would the majority of the people that play the game get the most out of? A new squadmember or changing the old members?

I can imagine how hilarious the headlines for the DLC would be. "Bioware releases DLC pack that turns your squadmembers bisexual or gay! Get it today for only 800 MSP!"

You would never include it in the description, you'd slip it into a mission/character/armor/weapon pack with one throwaway sentence that you put so far down on the cerberus network thingy that no one would know until the character came to the bedroom.

[DaeJi]

Ninja Ataris wrote...
And what would the majority of the people that play the game get the most out of? A new squadmember or changing the old members?

Both. Making current members open for same sex romances would take a fraction of the time needed to make a new character and both DLCs could be done at the same time.

[-Area51-Silent]

I am still a proponent of artistic vision. If it was actually an intention of the artist for the homosexual relationships to be there, then I agree they should be added. If it wasn't then I don't think the characters should be altered.



I know some can interpret that those relationships do exist though the context of the interactions. Though like most great art, sometimes the viewer sees or experiences a part of the art in a way that was not the intention of the artist. It's not Bioware being intolerant, it's merely the vision of the characters they had.

[tausra]

Or simply advertise it as New Squad options to improve the immersion and experience of the player. Cut content repaired and new dialog options as well!

[ERJAK2]

WilliamShatner wrote...

I would bet money on a "Romance" or "Squad Interaction" pack selling more than a new mission or weapons and armour.

To be honest, I would never buy new guns, don't even do the side missions(they cost more than they earn) and don't where any armor that has a helmet I can't remove. So...I agree.

[Funkenstein23]

tausra wrote...

Funkenstein23 wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

Funkenstein23 wrote...


I'm sorry but that is a preposterous claim. Your argument is that because something is not directly stated it could be true. That is no different than assuming that Jacob made a living selling shrimp out of a van. I may not know everything about Jacob's pre-service history, but as an intelligent person I am able to make the assumption that he was never a shrimp-salesman. The game never alludes to such in any way, at all. Similarly, the game never, not even once, gives any indication that Thane has ever been involved in a homosexual relationship.

I think what their point is is that because their is a lot unknown about them, homosexual attraction could be worked in seamlessly.

Right, and I understand their point but my point is that no, it could not. Jack is bi, and Tali flirts with femshep and as such they are prime candidates for an f/f romance. Thane on the other hand not only does not display such tendencies but also has his very own special dialogue with maleshep about how its nice to have a friend since before now his only relationships were a romantic one with a wife and a parental one with his son. So if he were sudden;y made gay, a part of his character would change, and it would be a retcon.

Change his lines by adding one or two more is an overhauling retcon?  As upset as I am with BioWare, I know they have some of the best writers.  I am certain that it is well within their capable hands to alter and add a handful of lines in a convincing manner.   Off of the top of my head:

"Shepard you are the only meaningful relationship I've had since my Wife's passing.  Before her there were many... encounters, but nothing more meaningful than a rainstorm on (Hanar homeworld). And even as I die, there is no one I would rather spend what could be my last night with."

That, right there is EXACTLY the problem! In order for that relationship to work, even according to you, lines would have to be altered. Alterations of lines are bad, all of the time. You are changing the character for selfish reasons and you are doing a ******-poor job at role-playing! I really do not enjoy getting angry about things like this, because its foolish, but I don't understand how you can justify altering a character in order to suit your own specific whims.

[DaeJi]

-Area51-Silent wrote...

I am still a proponent of artistic vision. If it was actually an intention of the artist for the homosexual relationships to be there, then I agree they should be added. If it wasn't then I don't think the characters should be altered.

In BioWare's case, I think they leave themselves room to alter their vision for unartistic reasons. They are a for profit company after all. I believe that the inclusion of Garrus and Tali as love interests show that.

[DaeJi]

Funkenstein23 wrote...

That, right there is EXACTLY the problem! In order for that relationship to work, even according to you, lines would have to be altered. Alterations of lines are bad, all of the time. You are changing the character for selfish reasons and you are doing a ******-poor job at role-playing! I really do not enjoy getting angry about things like this, because its foolish, but I don't understand how you can justify altering a character in order to suit your own specific whims.

Lines would be added, not altered. As for changing a character, their sexuality does not spill over into the other aspects of their character, but is self-contained. Changing that one thing will not alter the character for anyone unless they choose it.