259 réponses à ce sujet

[tausra]

Funkenstein23 wrote...

tausra wrote...

Funkenstein23 wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

Funkenstein23 wrote...


I'm sorry but that is a preposterous claim. Your argument is that because something is not directly stated it could be true. That is no different than assuming that Jacob made a living selling shrimp out of a van. I may not know everything about Jacob's pre-service history, but as an intelligent person I am able to make the assumption that he was never a shrimp-salesman. The game never alludes to such in any way, at all. Similarly, the game never, not even once, gives any indication that Thane has ever been involved in a homosexual relationship.

I think what their point is is that because their is a lot unknown about them, homosexual attraction could be worked in seamlessly.

Right, and I understand their point but my point is that no, it could not. Jack is bi, and Tali flirts with femshep and as such they are prime candidates for an f/f romance. Thane on the other hand not only does not display such tendencies but also has his very own special dialogue with maleshep about how its nice to have a friend since before now his only relationships were a romantic one with a wife and a parental one with his son. So if he were sudden;y made gay, a part of his character would change, and it would be a retcon.

Change his lines by adding one or two more is an overhauling retcon?  As upset as I am with BioWare, I know they have some of the best writers.  I am certain that it is well within their capable hands to alter and add a handful of lines in a convincing manner.   Off of the top of my head:

"Shepard you are the only meaningful relationship I've had since my Wife's passing.  Before her there were many... encounters, but nothing more meaningful than a rainstorm on (Hanar homeworld). And even as I die, there is no one I would rather spend what could be my last night with."

That, right there is EXACTLY the problem! In order for that relationship to work, even according to you, lines would have to be altered. Alterations of lines are bad, all of the time. You are changing the character for selfish reasons and you are doing a ******-poor job at role-playing! I really do not enjoy getting angry about things like this, because its foolish, but I don't understand how you can justify altering a character in order to suit your own specific whims.

It is simply adding to a character there is no retcon, simply an expression of hidden thoughts and desires. 

[Lord Atlia]

-Area51-Silent wrote...

I am still a proponent of artistic vision. If it was actually an intention of the artist for the homosexual relationships to be there, then I agree they should be added. If it wasn't then I don't think the characters should be altered.

I know some can interpret that those relationships do exist though the context of the interactions. Though like most great art, sometimes the viewer sees or experiences a part of the art in a way that was not the intention of the artist. It's not Bioware being intolerant, it's merely the vision of the characters they had.

As I said before this is a noble philosophy, but as William Shatner pointed out Tali was written as bisexual and altered straight.  Was this by the writer having a change of heart, the director who thought it didn't fit the world, someone in marketing who thought it would affect sales? As I said before I just want to know how and why this was dropped not to nerd rage about political issues but it would give insight into how they develop games, at what point are things cut because of time and resources.  They already paid Hale and Sroka for the lines they are just out in the nether atm.

[Loerwyn]

DaeJi wrote...

ERJAK2 wrote...


While I agree that it could be done(with Jacob more than Thane/Garrus) I also think introducing a new character would be a better option. Actually , for M/M or F/F it would be the best option. Unfortunately, it looks like we only get one more character(Kasumi better be a femshep LI.)

I disagree, I think several characters lend themselves well to being same sex love interests (namely Tali, Jack, and Thane). Adding a new character is a huge undertaking, one that involves a lot of hours, money, and resources. Patching in current ones is much less work for the same results. However, I am all for new characters being same-sex options, more so if there is a new character who is a M/M option.

If they don't add in new ones, I think at least this should be done.
Tali and probably Jack should be opened up to FemShep - Yes, it does mean another Alien, but it might be bearable especially considering Tali does flirt a little and she's rather cute.
Thane and either Jacob/Garrus should be opened up to ManShep - It gives at least one alien option for ManShep for a homosexual relationship, and Garrus could easily be tweaked to trying with ManShep.

I think that would satisfy all parties involved, wouldn't it? It wouldn't require new DLC - just a patch (or it could be done as DLC, sounds more likely knowing EA) and because it doesn't add any new features as such, I think it would be a much cheaper and more viable alternative for BioWare. As long as it counts towards the epliogue save, I think it'll be fine.

[HAGA NAGA]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Brahlis wrote...

ERJAK2 wrote...
Tali has no established sexual preference at all. She seems to have a Xenophilia thing going but beyond that we really don't know much.

Except for the part where she bones maleShep and shows no sexual interest in femShep, you mean?

Interesting verb usage.

Is Tali hiding something specific in that enviro-suit?

lol. that's what i was thinking. so there IS a m/m romance!!!!!

[Ninja Ataris]

DaeJi wrote...

Ninja Ataris wrote...
And what would the majority of the people that play the game get the most out of? A new squadmember or changing the old members?

Both. Making current members open for same sex romances would take a fraction of the time needed to make a new character and both DLCs could be done at the same time.

DaeJi wrote...

I
disagree, I think several characters lend themselves well to being same
sex love interests (namely Tali, Jack, and Thane). Adding a new
character is a huge undertaking, one that involves a lot of hours,
money, and resources. Patching in current ones is much less work for
the same results. However, I am all for new characters being same-sex
options, more so if there is a new character who is a M/M option.

You're contradicting yourself. You're saying bundle it with a new squadmember, which apparently is such a massive undertaking that it shouldn't be done, and ON TOP OF THAT they should modify the old squad members to suit bi/gay romances? Why not just make the new character, while you're actually working on it, bisexual or gay?

Stop trying to eff the old characters, make new ones and make them bi or w/e, don't retcon the old ones.

[-Area51-Silent]

I believe that Garrus and Tali fit into the vision as it is. Who they are and what their preferences are I couldn't even begin to know what thoughts the artist had because I am merely the viewer trying to understand what is being expressed.



As I said though, if the same-sex romance is there and its intended, then I agree it should be added at some point, because what we have then is an incomplete vision missing key pieces. However if it were never the intention then I am against the alteration, because it taints the vision.



Making this analogous to a finished painting, there were always be aspects that each person likes and dislikes, however if the artist changes everything that each person dislikes it is no longer their vision.

[Funkenstein23]

tausra wrote...

Funkenstein23 wrote...

tausra wrote...

Funkenstein23 wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

Funkenstein23 wrote...


I'm sorry but that is a preposterous claim. Your argument is that because something is not directly stated it could be true. That is no different than assuming that Jacob made a living selling shrimp out of a van. I may not know everything about Jacob's pre-service history, but as an intelligent person I am able to make the assumption that he was never a shrimp-salesman. The game never alludes to such in any way, at all. Similarly, the game never, not even once, gives any indication that Thane has ever been involved in a homosexual relationship.

I think what their point is is that because their is a lot unknown about them, homosexual attraction could be worked in seamlessly.

Right, and I understand their point but my point is that no, it could not. Jack is bi, and Tali flirts with femshep and as such they are prime candidates for an f/f romance. Thane on the other hand not only does not display such tendencies but also has his very own special dialogue with maleshep about how its nice to have a friend since before now his only relationships were a romantic one with a wife and a parental one with his son. So if he were sudden;y made gay, a part of his character would change, and it would be a retcon.

Change his lines by adding one or two more is an overhauling retcon?  As upset as I am with BioWare, I know they have some of the best writers.  I am certain that it is well within their capable hands to alter and add a handful of lines in a convincing manner.   Off of the top of my head:

"Shepard you are the only meaningful relationship I've had since my Wife's passing.  Before her there were many... encounters, but nothing more meaningful than a rainstorm on (Hanar homeworld). And even as I die, there is no one I would rather spend what could be my last night with."

That, right there is EXACTLY the problem! In order for that relationship to work, even according to you, lines would have to be altered. Alterations of lines are bad, all of the time. You are changing the character for selfish reasons and you are doing a ******-poor job at role-playing! I really do not enjoy getting angry about things like this, because its foolish, but I don't understand how you can justify altering a character in order to suit your own specific whims.

It is simply adding to a character there is no retcon, simply an expression of hidden thoughts and desires. 

There is a large difference between hidden and nonexistant.

[DaeJi]

Ninja Ataris wrote...
You're contradicting yourself. You're saying bundle it with a new squadmember, which apparently is such a massive undertaking that it shouldn't be done, and ON TOP OF THAT they should modify the old squad members to suit bi/gay romances? Why not just make the new character, while you're actually working on it, bisexual or gay?

Stop trying to eff the old characters, make new ones and make them bi or w/e, don't retcon the old ones.

No I am not. My point was that reworking current members to be same sex romance options would be easier to do than creating a new character, so easy in fact that they could create that DLC alongside another DLC, such as a new character.

[ERJAK2]

Can we not argue about this? I really like the non-hostile vibe we got going here.

[Ninja Ataris]

DaeJi wrote...

Ninja Ataris wrote...
You're contradicting yourself. You're saying bundle it with a new squadmember, which apparently is such a massive undertaking that it shouldn't be done, and ON TOP OF THAT they should modify the old squad members to suit bi/gay romances? Why not just make the new character, while you're actually working on it, bisexual or gay?

Stop trying to eff the old characters, make new ones and make them bi or w/e, don't retcon the old ones.

No I am not. My point was that reworking current members to be same sex romance options would be easier to do than creating a new character, so easy in fact that they could create that DLC alongside another DLC, such as a new character.

So again, why not make said character bi? Less work, everyone happy.

Modifié par Ninja Ataris, 11 février 2010 - 01:15 .

[DaeJi]

-Area51-Silent wrote...

Making this analogous to a finished painting, there were always be aspects that each person likes and dislikes, however if the artist changes everything that each person dislikes it is no longer their vision.

As I said before, BioWare's "vision" is left open to change in order to make it more marketable or more appealing to fans. Profit is the bottom line for them, not expression. So while they do maintain their vision, they can and do alter it.

[-Area51-Silent]

DaeJi wrote...

-Area51-Silent wrote...

Making this analogous to a finished painting, there were always be aspects that each person likes and dislikes, however if the artist changes everything that each person dislikes it is no longer their vision.

As I said before, BioWare's "vision" is left open to change in order to make it more marketable or more appealing to fans. Profit is the bottom line for them, not expression. So while they do maintain their vision, they can and do alter it.

I wouldn't go so far to say this, because artisitc vision does equate to profit. To ruin somthing by changing aspects that were never supposed to be would come off as corny which detracts from the value. If they were looking to make the game more marketable, Bioware would have made this a multiplayer game.

By making a character gay or Bi when it was never intended would cheapen the experience and the game. By doing that they would detract for the experience which would actually make the game less marketable and the future of the Mass Effect idea (not just the triology because they have expressed interest in going beyond) less marketable.

To add somthing that is not within the artists vision, even at the prospect of more money just wouldn't come out right. Reason being that it wouldn't be genuine, and without that, you wouldn't get the same emotional reactions you get now.

Modifié par -Area51-Silent, 11 février 2010 - 01:25 .

[Litos456]

Are you serious? Another one of these idiotic threads?

[DaeJi]

Litos456 wrote...

Are you serious? Another one of these idiotic threads?

Yes.

[addiction21]

Litos456 wrote...

Are you serious? Another one of these idiotic threads?

And you have just bumped a thread you think is idiotic to the top of the page where it is likely some new people will see it, comment on it, and keep it alive longer.
Thats some strange behavior since you seem to dislike these types of threads so much.

[-Area51-Silent]

Does this type of topic really make people that uncomfortable? Within the scope of civilized non-flaming conversation, I thought this thread put out some good ideas, arguments and counter-arguments without the typical ignorant and intollerant responses that go with these types of threads.

[JamieCOTC]

As w/ all great mythos, (Star Trek, Star Wars, etc), there are contradictions.  In the Codex, Asari are stated to be female sapient beings.  When Shepard asks Liara if she “wants to pursue a relationship w/ her even though they are both women,” Liara responds, (in a roundabout way), yes.  When the love triangle pops up, Liara states she is “not exactly a woman.”

The number one rule of science fiction is Vulcans never smile, except when they do. 

That said, I would no more want Miranda coming on to my femShep than Liara telling me that she’s pregnant and the child is forming as a growth on the side of her head.  She’s a mammal, (a sapient being to be exact), so the kid has to squirt out from somewhere.  Her nose maybe?  “Take a deep breath and blow.”

In the end, I have to agree that romance is the icing on the cake to an already great game.  Yes, BioWare is known for the love and does it fairly well.  I do hope they don’t cop out on Liara, but I also don’t expect anything to change in ME3.  If you want lesbian love in a great Action/RPG, Leliana from DA:O is ready and waiting. 

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 11 février 2010 - 01:38 .

[Fishy]

Hmm 2 girl making out..

HMMMMM



I'm a guy and hetero but i think i would play a female character just for that

haha

[Collider]

FFS. Jack is heterosexual, Tali is heterosexual, Miranda is heterosexual, they're all heterosexual sans Samara and Kelly. Get over it. People are reading too much and trying to see bisexuality in these characters. Very typical of fans in general. Ultimately, Bioware has the reigns. These characters are heterosexual, but a small amount of people are trying to read bisexuality in them because they want them to be bisexual. By doing so, they are using their own stereotypes of sexuality, making them look fools.

[JamieCOTC]

Suprez30 wrote...

Hmm 2 girl making out..
HMMMMM

I'm a guy and hetero but i think i would play a female character just for that
haha

That's mainly why it is there in the first place.  You win a cookie.  

[ERJAK2]

Collider wrote...

FFS. Jack is heterosexual, Tali is heterosexual, Miranda is heterosexual, they're all heterosexual sans Samara and Kelly. Get over it. People are reading too much and trying to see bisexuality in these characters. Very typical of fans in general. Ultimately, Bioware has the reigns. These characters are heterosexual, but a small amount of people are trying to read bisexuality in them because they want them to be bisexual. By doing so, they are using their own stereotypes of sexuality, making them look fools.

Jack is not. It's part of her character. Your argument is voided.

[Collider]

ERJAK2 wrote...

Collider wrote...

FFS. Jack is heterosexual, Tali is heterosexual, Miranda is heterosexual, they're all heterosexual sans Samara and Kelly. Get over it. People are reading too much and trying to see bisexuality in these characters. Very typical of fans in general. Ultimately, Bioware has the reigns. These characters are heterosexual, but a small amount of people are trying to read bisexuality in them because they want them to be bisexual. By doing so, they are using their own stereotypes of sexuality, making them look fools.

Jack is not. It's part of her character. Your argument is voided.

You ever consider that some women have slept with other women without actually being attracted to them? She was also with another man at the time.

[Lord Atlia]

Collider wrote...

FFS. Jack is heterosexual, Tali is heterosexual, Miranda is heterosexual, they're all heterosexual sans Samara and Kelly. Get over it. People are reading too much and trying to see bisexuality in these characters. Very typical of fans in general. Ultimately, Bioware has the reigns. These characters are heterosexual, but a small amount of people are trying to read bisexuality in them because they want them to be bisexual. By doing so, they are using their own stereotypes of sexuality, making them look fools.

Dude you need to search the Tali video on youtube, I agreed with you before someone pointed me in that direction.  Tali was bisexual than edited hetereosexual much in the same way Kaidan was.

[DaeJi]

Collider wrote...

FFS. Jack is heterosexual, Tali is heterosexual, Miranda is heterosexual, they're all heterosexual sans Samara and Kelly. Get over it. People are reading too much and trying to see bisexuality in these characters. Very typical of fans in general. Ultimately, Bioware has the reigns. These characters are heterosexual, but a small amount of people are trying to read bisexuality in them because they want them to be bisexual. By doing so, they are using their own stereotypes of sexuality, making them look fools.

So it's wrong to to make our feeling known? It's not like BioWare is unable to make changes to the game; in fact they plan too with the upcoming Hammerhead and Kasumi. All we are asking is for an update to certain characters that would not affect anyones' games that do not want them.

[Collider]

Lord Atlia wrote...
Dude you need to search the Tali video on youtube, I agreed with you before someone pointed me in that direction.  Tali was bisexual than edited hetereosexual much in the same way Kaidan was.

That doesn't matter. What matters is the final product. Characters go through many iterations. Had Bioware used their first concept of Jack for example, she would have pink hair. Ultimately they decided to have Tali be heterosexual.