107 réponses à ce sujet

[OriginalDiSarray]

CubemonkeyNYC wrote...

OriginalDiSarray wrote...

I believe the cool down could be reduced. I'm currently playing on Insanity and once and a while i get flanked by enemies which i could have stopped with a power. This is strongly evident when versing Scions.

If you get flanked by Scions, the slowest moving enemies in the game, you are just bad at the game.

No when i was talking about begining out flanked. I didn't mean the scion. Scions don't get that far. they take a pounding but i find it hard to believe anyone could be outflanked by one, but stranger things have happened. But looking at my statement again i can see i was just spewing my thoughts down and sadly was not clear enough.

[newcomplex]

Roxlimn wrote...

Laterali:

No dude. Don't argue. Listen.

Warp Explosion isn't just Warp. It applies Warp damage to every target in a 5 meter radius regardless of defenses. It's not just Warp. It is the most powerful damage AoE in the game. Area Reave is crap in comparison.

You cannot apply Warp Explosion unless you have a biotic power active on an undefended target. THAT is why you Pull a target that doesn't have defenses - so you can Warp it and trigger the AoE. And no, it's not better or faster to shoot it, unless you're shooting with a grenade launcher.

Don't argue. Boot up your game NOW and try it out. Once the armor or shield is gone, curve a Pull around cover, then trigger the Warp Explosion. If, after extensive use, you still think that applying 200 damage to a 5 meter radius is worse than shooting individual targets one at a time, then I won't push this point further.

winnrar

Then, singularity obviously has uses for quick stopping charging enemies.   

That leaves push and shockwave.    Both are pretty situational, but push is pretty useful for instant killing mechs and husks (blows off their legs),  as well as throwing people off cliffs, which is used extensively in the final mission and on the collector ship, due to the platform structure.   Shockwave is kinda bad

Laterali wrote...

That doesn't work on Insanity, since
almost every enemy is armored or has a barrier, and warp explosion is
still warp. I'd love to use all the powers, but like I said, warp is the
only useful one, and once armor is gone and it's down to health, you
might as well just continue to shoot.

Once armor is down, you should pull, not continue to warp.    Why on earth would you continue to shoot?  

Their are literally no benefits at all, especially considering 2.5 seconds, the cd of a pull, isn't enough to gun them down usually anyway.     

L2curve and detonate biotics.   

Modifié par newcomplex, 11 février 2010 - 05:26 .

[CubemonkeyNYC]

Laterali wrote...

That doesn't work on Insanity, since almost every enemy is armored or has a barrier, and warp explosion is still warp. I'd love to use all the powers, but like I said, warp is the only useful one, and once armor is gone and it's down to health, you might as well just continue to shoot.

Look up Average Gatsby's adepting on insanity videos. You're doing it wrong.

Chip away shields with teammates or SMG, then singularity + warp for waaaay more damage.

[Ahglock]

Warp explosion is better than just shooting the targets if other targets are close enough to make a difference, but only marginally so. Sure if there is a pack there it is awesome but usually at best its one additional target. I'd do just as well to fire a warp at the additional target and gun down the initial target while it is in the air.



And the point is it is still using warp all the time, sure its warp after throwing a pull/singularity or whatever so it explodes but it still is warp spam.



Vs shielded targets pull, throw just don't do enough it does crap damage and staggers them for a second. Again just follow the singularity model and have limited but useful effects.

[Kyban Alteri]

In the cutscene Jack tears through everyone, but in game you can't even use it on enemies with defences, what's with that? Although my adept has an assault rifle in the cutscenes too, why can't I just pick one up off the floor and use it, shepards kind of a pathetic excuse for a spectre as an adept.

[newcomplex]

CubemonkeyNYC wrote...

Laterali wrote...

That doesn't work on Insanity, since almost every enemy is armored or has a barrier, and warp explosion is still warp. I'd love to use all the powers, but like I said, warp is the only useful one, and once armor is gone and it's down to health, you might as well just continue to shoot.

Look up Average Gatsby's adepting on insanity videos. You're doing it wrong.

Chip away shields with teammates or SMG, then singularity + warp for waaaay more damage.

Their isn't a reason to use singularity to detonate when pull has a 2.5 sec recharge, sing 4.5, and pull casts faster, and moves faster.   

[CubemonkeyNYC]

OriginalDiSarray wrote...

CubemonkeyNYC wrote...

OriginalDiSarray wrote...

I believe the cool down could be reduced. I'm currently playing on Insanity and once and a while i get flanked by enemies which i could have stopped with a power. This is strongly evident when versing Scions.

If you get flanked by Scions, the slowest moving enemies in the game, you are just bad at the game.

No when i was talking about begining out flanked. I didn't mean the scion. Scions don't get that far. they take a pounding but i find it hard to believe anyone could be outflanked by one, but stranger things have happened. But looking at my statement again i can see i was just spewing my thoughts down and sadly was not clear enough.

When getting attacked by husks and scions, run around or away from the scions while you kill the husks, then come back to the scions.

[newcomplex]

That being said, while biotics are very potent when used properly, the OP is certainly correct with it being terrible design, apparently, Bioware overestimated the intellect of the average adept player.   They forgot to remember the number one rule of 21st century game development, where casualization and catering to the lowest common denominator is your number one priority. 
 
For shame.    

Modifié par newcomplex, 11 février 2010 - 05:29 .

[Tuco the Ugly 09]

I would have liked it if with each level a biotic power became effective against shield/armor/barrier.

like:

level 1 pull - can only pull non-armored/non-shielded/non-barrier enemies

level 2 pull - can now pull armored enemies

level 3 pull - can now pull armored/shielded enemies

level 4 pull - can pull any enemy regardless of armor/shields/barriers.

[CubemonkeyNYC]

newcomplex wrote...

CubemonkeyNYC wrote...

Laterali wrote...

That doesn't work on Insanity, since almost every enemy is armored or has a barrier, and warp explosion is still warp. I'd love to use all the powers, but like I said, warp is the only useful one, and once armor is gone and it's down to health, you might as well just continue to shoot.

Look up Average Gatsby's adepting on insanity videos. You're doing it wrong.

Chip away shields with teammates or SMG, then singularity + warp for waaaay more damage.

Their isn't a reason to use singularity to detonate when pull has a 2.5 sec recharge, sing 4.5, and pull casts faster, and moves faster.   

Singularity stops armored targets on insanity. Pull does not. Besides, singularity insta-kills husks once their armor is down. Pull does not.

[Roxlimn]

newcomplex:



I've actually been using Throw a lot. I agree that the 2nd and 3rd levels of Throw are underwhelming, since they don't materially add that much to the base power. More damage or greater staggering effect on defended targets would be desirable.



However, I found Throw Field to be pretty awesome. It has the standard 3 meter explosion radius out from where you aim it, and it's hardly less powerful than Hurricane Throw. It's useful in the Towers, especially on the bridge, as well as on Tuchanka, and when going up to find W, since the left or right side of the battlefield is usually open, allowing for the Pull-Throw instakill combo.



It's great for taking out those pesky Heavy Weapons users. I usually have one of my squaddies take out the defenses, then I Throw Field them to lock them out while I deal with the rest of the enemies. Also fantastic for blowing back Vanguards, shotgun users, and krogan. The main draw, of course, is the ridiculously low cooldown. It's not a permanent solution, but it's nice to have around when you need a little breathing room. Coulda used it as Infiltrator and Soldier.

[newcomplex]

Roxlimn wrote...

newcomplex:

I've actually been using Throw a lot. I agree that the 2nd and 3rd levels of Throw are underwhelming, since they don't materially add that much to the base power. More damage or greater staggering effect on defended targets would be desirable.

However, I found Throw Field to be pretty awesome. It has the standard 3 meter explosion radius out from where you aim it, and it's hardly less powerful than Hurricane Throw. It's useful in the Towers, especially on the bridge, as well as on Tuchanka, and when going up to find W, since the left or right side of the battlefield is usually open, allowing for the Pull-Throw instakill combo.

It's great for taking out those pesky Heavy Weapons users. I usually have one of my squaddies take out the defenses, then I Throw Field them to lock them out while I deal with the rest of the enemies. Also fantastic for blowing back Vanguards, shotgun users, and krogan. The main draw, of course, is the ridiculously low cooldown. It's not a permanent solution, but it's nice to have around when you need a little breathing room. Coulda used it as Infiltrator and Soldier.

Well yea, thats what I said, their only use is for shooting people off bridges .     The damage scaling is underwhelming, and pull+throw is just for kicks, as pull+warp is almost always better.     But shooting people off cliffs is pretty damn useful, and you might as well upgrade it, because pull, while useful, scales even worse, and shockwave is just bad.    

[CubemonkeyNYC]

Tuco the Ugly 09 wrote...

I would have liked it if with each level a biotic power became effective against shield/armor/barrier.
like:
level 1 pull - can only pull non-armored/non-shielded/non-barrier enemies
level 2 pull - can now pull armored enemies
level 3 pull - can now pull armored/shielded enemies
level 4 pull - can pull any enemy regardless of armor/shields/barriers.

So at level 3-4 you're back to ME1-style biotics that are extremely overpowered.

If anything was going to change, it should be to have biotics hit armored targets only. Personally, I think it's fine. On Normal my adept was godlike. On Insanity, obviously specific tactics are required.

[beserker7]

XxTaLoNxX wrote...

Bloody Hun that sounds like a reasonable fix, and to add to that suggestion, I would also suggest that Biotics work against Barriers as well. Since that would make sense in the game world... (I mean we've seen biotics fighting other biotics already). But to be fair maybe add a 1/2 damage protocol against biotic barriers, 75% against armor and 0% against shields. Would make Tech abilities useful against shields while maintaining a decent balance of effectiveness. Now that I think about it something alone those lines would be a better, yet more development intensive fix. While the easy fix is to just remove the disability problem.

To take off of what both you guys have said what if biotic Pull,Shockwave,Charge, Slam, Singularity, etc worked against barrier & armor foes, but only if you evolved the power to its highest level? I think that would fill in the    " make sense in game world" comments, as it would be only able to be done by  powerful biotics(maxing out a skill).  Keep it un-usable against shielded enemies for balance, and you could say the shields interfere with natual biotics.

I too found biotics a little too gimped, as there are alot of armor,barrier, and shielded foes in the game and only Adept class, Miranda, & Thane get Warp.

To be fair though, if you gain the +50% weapon upgrades to damage barriers,shields, and armor, the game once again becomes balanced and you just take a shoot down barrier/shield/armor first, then biotic finish approach.

I'm doing my Insanity playthrough with Vanguard(no warp) and think the game is still great and balanced at this level for a bioctic, except for the Collector Ship and a few other areas where there are alot of tough armor and barrier enemies. 

For the world of ME and ME3, I would, however, like to see something like my above suggestion added for ME3, as biotics should be able to lift and damage through armor and barriers of enemies, if there skill level is strong enough.

Modifié par beserker7, 11 février 2010 - 05:46 .

[Ahglock]

newcomplex wrote...

CubemonkeyNYC wrote...

Laterali wrote...

That doesn't work on Insanity, since almost every enemy is armored or has a barrier, and warp explosion is still warp. I'd love to use all the powers, but like I said, warp is the only useful one, and once armor is gone and it's down to health, you might as well just continue to shoot.

Look up Average Gatsby's adepting on insanity videos. You're doing it wrong.

Chip away shields with teammates or SMG, then singularity + warp for waaaay more damage.

Their isn't a reason to use singularity to detonate when pull has a 2.5 sec recharge, sing 4.5, and pull casts faster, and moves faster.   

Actually singularity works great for detonate because you can set it up before the defenses are down.

[LxLegend]

Personally I don't like the balancing of powers in ME2 above veteran mode. Rock, paper, scissors balancing has always been boring to me, risk versus reward balancing is often more fun.



Adept is a scissors class that on insanity has to fight a lot of rock enemies which doesn't increase the fun or challenge but just adds tedium.



But what the last few post seem to miss in the OP point is that once the armor is down even with warp explosion it's easier to just shoot the enemy and save that warp cooldown for the next target.



My favorite game Demon's Souls uses risk vs reward balancing and is more difficult and more challenging than ME2's insanity of roshambo.



DS uses damage resistances, but it almost never makes one type of attack completely useless like ME2 does with power nullification.



I hope they do better with ME3 but I doubt they will change it much.

[Br0th3rGr1mm]

Biotics are certainly gimped in ME2 on the higher difficulties. Isn't that what higher difficulties should do...present a challenge? Granted, the tactics required to get an Adept thru Insanity can get rather boring and/or furstrating at times, but the ARE there.



Overall, I tend to agree that the higher difficulties should ALLOW you to cast any power at any target and SOME sort of effect (no matter how minor) should result, but that would require quite a bit of work to alter the game at this point. I do agree that Overload should allow the temporary weapon disable on ANY target (with maybe a reduced duration for unshielded targets).



It's obviously apparent from some of these comments that may Biotic using players have NO idea about the explosion aspect of the WARP power. Roxlimn is correct that until you experiment with it a bit, you won't realize it's full potential. Unstable Warp's blast radius is HUGE and damages enemies despite their protections.

[Ahglock]

newcomplex wrote...

That being said, while biotics are very potent when used properly, the OP is certainly correct with it being terrible design, apparently, Bioware overestimated the intellect of the average adept player.   They forgot to remember the number one rule of 21st century game development, where casualization and catering to the lowest common denominator is your number one priority. 
 
For shame.    

This is unnecesarry.  It isn't the lack of ability to do it, it is the reduced fun.  This has nothing to do with the players intellect. 

For shame.

[Roxlimn]

CubemonkeyNYC:

Actually, it does. So does Throw. Have you actually been using Pull or are you just theorizing? Pull an unarmored Husks always kills it instantly. Concussive Shot, too.

The number one reason to use Pull against Singularity is cooldown. Singularity has a 50% greater cooldown vs. Pull. The baseline increase is 1.5 seconds. If the target is undefended, there's no good reason to prefer Singularity.

Again, as with everyone, I invite you to turn on your machine and try it out for yourself. Go to where some Husks are, shoot away their armor, then use Pull. It's always killed them, if I recall correctly.

Ahglock:

Many enemies spawn close to each other or clump around a single point of cover. Mechs, especially, tend to group near enough that you can nearly always get one other target. It's not that unusual to get 2 or even 3 additional targets in cramped spaces like towers, rooms, and ledges.

In fact, I don't use Warp Explosion unless I'm going to get at least another target in there, and I used Warp Explosion a LOT.

In a Blue Suns Disable Signal mission (not part of the main plot), enemies come out closely clustered from a door just as you exit the shuttle area. You can Area Overload to remove many of their Shields en masse, Pull one guy, then Warp Explosion to kill all or nearly all of them. Instant win on Hardcore.

There are other specific occasions where I can clearly detail insta-win tactics, but that would be a little more spoileriffic. And of course, enemy behavior tends to clump them around cover anyway.

The difference is far from marginal, and I know because I replayed the sections using WE and NOT using WE. The difference is marked. Using WE on a clump of opponents can allow you to clear sections while barely breaking from Storm animation, literally running from room to room.

And no, it's not spamming Warp. If you're using squad Overload and SMG fire to remove Shields, Pull to setup Warp Explosion, and the occasional Throw to push back shotgun targets (low cooldown, so you don't get locked out from Warp Explosion tactics very long), plus Singularity to lockdown powerful elites, then you're pretty much using the entire biotic arsenal right there.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 11 février 2010 - 05:57 .

[montpoupon]

Ahglock wrote...
This is unnecesarry.  It isn't the lack of ability to do it, it is the reduced fun.  This has nothing to do with the players intellect.  

For shame.

I agree with this.  Overpowered as biotics may have been in ME1, they made combat so darn fun.  It was so awesome to send people into the stratosphere with Lift.  

They should've just given Biotic users a biotic shield that absorbed one or two biotic attacks, instead of the shields -> armor -> health mechanic.

[RhythmlessNinja]

Spamming Area Reave, Heavy Overload (does massive damage to every layer of shielding they have), Pull & a Combat Drone as vanguard, and yes i'm talking about my squad helping out. 90% on my enemies are without a shield in a matter of seconds of course, I'm including my shooting down the shields at same time( even as adept your not just gonna spam biotics...). Then I'm able to do whatever as I see fit. Never even used warp since I never use anyone that has it.



Can I start out charging enemies? Nah, it takes a few upgrades to do it safely on insanity. I sure as hell can tell you that charge has on numerous times saved my ass from aggressive enemies & definately vanguard isn't the worse class in the game. Especially on insanity. I haven't found a balance issue at all, it's called insanity for a reason. Probably the most fun & most satisfying playthrough yet.I'm just telling my experience as vanguard on insanity. If you don't like hearing the truth then well, that's fine.

[Ken Ueno]

Most of my play time has been with a Soldier, Infiltrator, and Sentinel, so I won't comment on the biotic aspect, but I'm 90% sure that Overload rank 3 or higher still shuts down enemies' weapons. The secondary effects of Overload (stun, overheat weapons) don't work on enemies with defenses, but stripped organics still have their weapons overheat. You can tell from the huge jets of steam coming out of their guns (duh).

Some factors that might be confusing this is the fact that Overload has to be at least rank 3 to overheat weapons and that you can still fire powers that are "redded out" as ineffective, just select it anyway and it'll fire.

My apologies if this is common knowledge already.

[brgillespie]

I don't play Adept, but my Engineer has Overload. I'm not understanding this criticism:



"2) Overload doesn't work against nonsynthetic enemies with a red health bar. They still have weapons and you should still have the opportunity to overheat those since that IS a main statistic of the power that is displayed in the skill tree. Come on BioWare... since when in any RPGish game could you not cast Shock on someone to some sort of advantage? Easy fix. Remove the disability."



What is the point of overheating weapons now? The system has changed from ME1's overheat system. You can't disable weapons anymore, the user simply ejects the spent thermal and slaps in a new one.

[Ahglock]

Roxlimn wrote...

Ahglock:

Many enemies spawn close to each other or clump around a single point of cover. Mechs, especially, tend to group near enough that you can nearly always get one other target. It's not that unusual to get 2 or even 3 additional targets in cramped spaces like towers, rooms, and ledges.

In fact, I don't use Warp Explosion unless I'm going to get at least another target in there, and I used Warp Explosion a LOT.

The difference is far from marginal, and I know because I replayed the sections using WE and NOT using WE. The difference is marked. Using WE on a clump of opponents can allow you to clear sections while barely breaking from Storm animation, literally running from room to room.

And no, it's not spamming Warp. If you're using squad Overload and SMG fire to remove Shields, Pull to setup Warp Explosion, and the occasional Throw to push back shotgun targets (low cooldown, so you don't get locked out from Warp Explosion tactics very long), plus Singularity to lockdown powerful elites, then you're pretty much using the entire biotic arsenal right there.

While enemies do form in groups and clumps I don't find it to happen enough to make the benefit much more than marignally better.  It is more fun, so I use it whenever I can though. 


And no you might not be spamming warp, but others are even with warp explosion.  If they warp, warp, pull, warp, that is still spamming warp.  Or they might do what I frequently, singualrity at cover, SMG/squad defenses down follow up with warp.  And then they feel like they are warp spamming because everything they did was the setup to use warp.

[Roxlimn]

newcomplex:



Haven't tested Shockwave yet, but I'm taking Jack along on the last half of my Sentinel playthrough because I don't have either Pull or Singularity, and I'm too used to using Warp Explosion to give it up now.



Throw is not only good for throwing targets off bridges. It's also good for locking targets out of firing at you, and for moving them somewhere more convenient. Against Husks, of course, it's insta-kill.



Against Heavy Weapons Users (my most common Throw Field target), I estimate about a 3 or 4 second lockout from firing if the Throw Field hits, if they don't go somewhere far away and if they don't bother crouching in cover. Sometimes, it takes longer than that.



Of course, by then you've fired your gun, Pulled something else, and are ready to use Throw Field again.



It's fantastic for assisting your guys when they're taking out enemies in a flanking maneuver and you're pinned down from weapons fire. Really cuts down on enemy fire.



Pull-Throw isn't just for kicks. If you're got a convenient deadfall somewhere, it's strictly better than Warp for single-target killing as the cooldown is shorter. And I noticed that there were a heckuva a lot of very conveniently placed deadfalls in many ME2 encounters.



Actually, if you land the enemy anywhere the game isn't coded for standing on, it tends to insta-kill them. I got several insta-kills for targets landing on top of round container tanks. That was weird.



Good against Vanguards, robot dogs, and shotgun-toting mercs, all of which are only really dangerous up close. Just Throw the guy twice in between gunning down other enemies and you won't have to deal with him again for a good, long while.