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[gr00grams]

Wow.



I was just going to post that Roxlimn.



Seems to many here simply whine about the changes, and don't attempt any creative ways to succeed, just whine that it's not so easy as it was in ME1.



Adept is a machine.

A freaking machine.

I slaughtered insanity with my adept, and am in the process of making some vids for youtube to emphasize this, as apparently so many just cannot grasp how to roll with it.



Like cast a singularity, strip one guys shields, then warp combo him, hits everything, commence annihilation on the cleanup with pulls/shockwaves/you name its. etc.



That said, also there is no other attack that I have found that does equal damage TO the protections better than warp. Not even sniper infiltrators.



Like one warp by endgame insanity+ would remove an entire barrier, or entire armor etc. it would remove entire mobs protections if it was a combo etc. Then just clean up with a shockwave from Jack or similar.



It's like those that don't want or like the changes simply refuse to listen to any logic.

[Grand_Commander13]

Adepts have three really good powers which are highly applicable on Insanity: Pull, Singularity, and Warp. Throw is probably pretty good too even in its own right, but I haven't Adepted on Insanity and I haven't seen any YouTube videos of it in use on shielded targets nor have I been able to use it myself on an ally. Shockwave I haven't quite figured out, but I did like using Jack's to stagger large groups of Husks so it's probably worth something.

People complain about the Engineer being lame too, but that doesn't make it so. Not by a long shot.

[Roxlimn]

Ahglock:

While enemies do form in groups and clumps I don't find it to happen enough to make the benefit much more than marignally better. It is more fun, so I use it whenever I can though.





And no you might not be spamming warp, but others are even with warp explosion. If they warp, warp, pull, warp, that is still spamming warp. Or they might do what I frequently, singualrity at cover, SMG/squad defenses down follow up with warp. And then they feel like they are warp spamming because everything they did was the setup to use warp.

Warp, Warp Pull-Warp is strictly inefficient because you're waiting on the cooldown on the second Warp before you can deploy Warp Explosion. Better to Warp - Pistol or SMG, then Pull as soon as the defense is down, then Warp Explosion.



I used Warp Explosion in damn near every encounter, and I always had at least one, usually two additional targets. You name the mission, I can name three or four optimal locations where the enemies will group and you can WE the living bejeezus out of them.



About the worst mission location is H, and for that, I used Throw Field - for the Husks, and because the Collectors were annoyingly well-covered.



Sing at cover - I can't argue with the efficacy, but it is a little wasteful on cooldown. I tend not to like it because unless I time it right, it tends to miss. It might also explain why you don't get a lot of targets with WE - I noticed that enemies have a mild avoid Sing AoE script which they use every so often. I've used it to hold a bunch of guys at a location without their actually being locked down.



You'd think that using a location trap would clump the enemies closer, but I found that not to be the case. Easier to catch groups with Pull-Warp, particularly because NPC Pulls and Warps are instantaneous.

[Flash_in_the_flesh]

gr00grams wrote...

Seems to many here simply whine about the changes, and don't attempt any creative ways to succeed, just whine that it's not so easy as it was in ME1.

I slaughtered insanity with my adept, and am in the process of making some vids for youtube to emphasize this, as apparently so many just cannot grasp how to roll with it.

How many times was it repeated that it's not difficulty issue? Nobody ever said that adept is hard to play. Actually nobody ever said that any class is hard to play apart from vanguard charger. Please reply to the actual problem instead of insinuating that we said something we never did.

Also guides how to strip enemy off shields to be able to successfully use biotics other than singularity and warp are not the point of this and many other topics. We know how to strip enemies off shields. We know how to use pull, throw, shockwave. The problem is why adepts recieved a nerf when it wasn't necessary? Now new-nerfed-adept-lovers say "but it was necessary and here's why". Now I'm saying "did you try it? Did you play an adept with biotics working on shields? Is such adept overpowered, more powerful than other classes?" The answer is NO.

Modifié par Flash_in_the_flesh, 11 février 2010 - 06:34 .

[CubemonkeyNYC]

Roxlimn wrote...

CubemonkeyNYC:

Actually, it does. So does Throw. Have you actually been using Pull or are you just theorizing? Pull an unarmored Husks always kills it instantly. Concussive Shot, too.

The number one reason to use Pull against Singularity is cooldown. Singularity has a 50% greater cooldown vs. Pull. The baseline increase is 1.5 seconds. If the target is undefended, there's no good reason to prefer Singularity.

Again, as with everyone, I invite you to turn on your machine and try it out for yourself. Go to where some Husks are, shoot away their armor, then use Pull. It's always killed them, if I recall correctly.

Inefficient.

Imagine a bunch of husks coming at you.

1) Cast singularity anywhere (at a husk, on the ground, etc.)
2) Use the carnifex to strip armor in one shot. 
3) Watch as unarmored husks all get pulled into singularity. 2+ husks, one singularity.  

This negates the cooldown advantage of pull.

To make it even easier you can cast singularity in a group of husks (say 3) and have you and each of your teammates strip armor off of each one. All dead.

[Roxlimn]

CubemonkeyNYC:



I was only clarifying that Pull also insta-kills Husks. I didn't say it was better than Sing against them.



That said, there is no reason you can't use BOTH Pull and Singularity at the same time, particularly if you favor Heavy Singularity, or can't funnel the Husks into a narrow defile. Cast Sing, use Carnifex to strip Armor, Pull on any Husks that manage to get past the Sing. It's all good.

[Roxlimn]

Flash_in_the_Flesh:



Pardon me, but wasn't the issue because it wasn't profitable to use Pull on targets that don't have defenses? That is, of course, untrue, but was that not the objection?



Throw as well? As far as I can recall, the original objections voiced by Hoffburger and others was that it was not profitable to use biotics on targets who no longer have defenses on them. After a playthrough on Hardcore using multiple build profiles, I can attest with solid references that this is not true.



It is better to use biotics once you strip their defenses - certainly better than gunning them down, even if you choose Armor Piercing Ammo as your bonus power (and yes, I have tried that out).

[Ahglock]

Roxlimn wrote...

Warp, Warp Pull-Warp is strictly inefficient because you're waiting on the cooldown on the second Warp before you can deploy Warp Explosion. Better to Warp - Pistol or SMG, then Pull as soon as the defense is down, then Warp Explosion.

It was just a quick example, I wan't trying to show the perfect model for efficiency.

Roxlimn wrote...

I used Warp Explosion in damn near every encounter, and I always had at least one, usually two additional targets. You name the mission, I can name three or four optimal locations where the enemies will group and you can WE the living bejeezus out of them.

About the worst mission location is H, and for that, I used Throw Field - for the Husks, and because the Collectors were annoyingly well-covered.

Like I said I don't consider one additioanl target a big win.  I still do it every time I see it because it is cool, and the knockback/down is useful.  The 2 plus targets just does not happen enough IMO, in a long fight yeah it happens a lot, but its a long fight so over the course of the fight it help me just a smidge. 

Roxlimn wrote...

Sing at cover - I can't argue with the efficacy, but it is a little wasteful on cooldown. I tend not to like it because unless I time it right, it tends to miss. It might also explain why you don't get a lot of targets with WE - I noticed that enemies have a mild avoid Sing AoE script which they use every so often. I've used it to hold a bunch of guys at a location without their actually being locked down.

You'd think that using a location trap would clump the enemies closer, but I found that not to be the case. Easier to catch groups with Pull-Warp, particularly because NPC Pulls and Warps are instantaneous.

 

The only issue I have with it is if singualirty burns out really quick.  Otherwise all intended targets for the warp explosion get hit.  I am tempted to try the wide explosion for warp, yeah it does less damage but 7 meters is beefy.  I'll try out heavy singularity to see if my experiences are different than I expect, but wide has been my bread and butter. 

[Roxlimn]

Ahglock:

Like I said I don't consider one additioanl target a big win. I still do it every time I see it because it is cool, and the knockback/down is useful. The 2 plus targets just does not happen enough IMO, in a long fight yeah it happens a lot, but its a long fight so over the course of the fight it help me just a smidge.

I find it significantly better than firing at the target, and I've tried it out over several missions using an Adept with Tungsten Ammo. On the whole, I found the ammo rather superfluous, since I was killing undefended targets at least as quickly with Pull-Warp, and I didn't have to lean out of cover as much to use it. I switched it out for Improved Barrier and found that more suited to my liking.



Long encounters are long because you aren't catching many targets in your AoE. If you caught nearly all of them in your AoE, the encounter would be brutally short.



Another example: nearly all the mechs in your mission tracking down F in the Citadel. They all spawn and move close to each other. You'd have to work to get them outside the AoE of Warp Explosion, and if you time it right, you can get a nearby merc, too.



If you're having problems with area, use Unstable Warp. That thing has a ridiculously large AoE - fully half the area of a Collector platform, just about.

The only issue I have with it is if singualirty burns out really quick. Otherwise all intended targets for the warp explosion get hit. I am tempted to try the wide explosion for warp, yeah it does less damage but 7 meters is beefy. I'll try out heavy singularity to see if my experiences are different than I expect, but wide has been my bread and butter.

It depends. I think it's because you're using Sing+gunning down to trigger Warp Explosion. That tends to have a rather unpredictable area and timing. Using either Pull or Warp from an ally has the advantage of applying either the Pull or the Warp instantaneously, allowing you to deploy the Warp Explosion with pinpoint accuracy and timing.



In fact, the reason I favor using Pull for the trigger is because the cooldown so so short that it's nearly the same. Sing has a long cooldown, added to your having to whittle down the defenses. It might be safer, but catching lots of enemies in the AoE's a little more of a crapshoot.

[vhatever]

Singularity only burns out fast if you let an enemy with protection into for more than a couple seconds.



Adept is one of the weakest characters, but it can still get the job done on insanity.

[Ahglock]

vhatever wrote...

Singularity only burns out fast if you let an enemy with protection into for more than a couple seconds.

Adept is one of the weakest characters, but it can still get the job done on insanity.

I've had singualrity burn out in seconds with as single non portected enemy in it.  I am trying to figure out if it is a bug or are resistances still in the game. 

[vhatever]

Shielded enemies break it the fastest, followed by barrier, then armor.

[vhatever]

Oh, and I've never seen a non protected nemy break a singularity. Most likely it had some protection when you first cast it, and that protection was drained by the singularity, which shorted it out and vanished, leaving what looked like n unprotected enemy in the sinularity.

[Ahglock]

Roxlimn wrote...

I find it significantly better than firing at the target, and I've tried it out over several missions using an Adept with Tungsten Ammo. On the whole, I found the ammo rather superfluous, since I was killing undefended targets at least as quickly with Pull-Warp, and I didn't have to lean out of cover as much to use it. I switched it out for Improved Barrier and found that more suited to my liking.

Long encounters are long because you aren't catching many targets in your AoE. If you caught nearly all of them in your AoE, the encounter would be brutally short.

Another example: nearly all the mechs in your mission tracking down F in the Citadel. They all spawn and move close to each other. You'd have to work to get them outside the AoE of Warp Explosion, and if you time it right, you can get a nearby merc, too.

If you're having problems with area, use Unstable Warp. That thing has a ridiculously large AoE - fully half the area of a Collector platform, just about.

Again I have different experinces to you.  Sure vs mechs they group, but I almost never use warp explosion on them since it kills the target and wounds the rest while scattering them around.  I just pull field or singualrity them and let my squad gun them down.  Mechs are generally my first target since they advance on you instead of just staying back and behind cover. 

Long fights are usually just long for me because they are designed to be long.  The recruit Jack mission on either of the large floors is an exmaple.  There are 4 or 5 groups of enemies 1 for each advance point.  It is a long fight and in a couple of the advance points warp explosion hits more than 1 spare.

The only time fights take long because I do not kill things fast enough is at the lower levels where I have not speant enough of my points to have anything, especially since my 1st 10 points went to getting nemesis.  So maybe a fight or two in the Mordin recruitment stage went a bit too long inmy first playthrough on hardcore, it went quick on my insanity playtrhrough. 

[Ahglock]

vhatever wrote...

Oh, and I've never seen a non protected nemy break a singularity. Most likely it had some protection when you first cast it, and that protection was drained by the singularity, which shorted it out and vanished, leaving what looked like n unprotected enemy in the sinularity.

Nope, no defenses at about 1/2 health and it shorts.  I've had it happen mutliple times.  Given what you are saying I am guessing it is a bug.  Sort of like when I pull someone and they just glow blue for the duration while walking aorund and shooting me. 

[Roxlimn]

Ahglock:



Actually, my first 10 points on my Hardcore playthrough went straight into Heavy Warp, with 1 point in Pull. I was kind of squishy for a while, but I dished out the hurt really well.



As far as the mechs go - well, I don't understand why you wouldn't want to WE them. It's not like they have anywhere to fling TO - the missions where they spawn are generally narrow corridors with one way through. They're essentially ready-made WE targets. If the back two survive to stand up further back and advance through the merc ranks - all the better - more WE targeting goodness.



I mean, if you're going to kill them anyway, using Pull+Warp is faster than using Pull then asking your dudes to kill them manually.



On Purgatory, on the floor with the mech, the first group has a Legionnaire and a mook, plus a shotgunner. SMG out the shotgunner's Shield, Throw him back, then use him as WE target. Alternatively, kill him, then use the mook as WE target, knocking down the Elite for the easy kill.



There are Heavies up top. Occasionally they will group and you can then WE them to profit, but you can also arrange it by stripping one of defenses, Throw the guy up to the other guy, Pull, then Warp.



Second group is easier since they come down into the trench in a group and the mooks stay back in a single cover area. Easy pickings for Warp Explosion tactics.



Then it's the fight off the trench with the trigger for the Heavy Mech. There's a mook with a Legionnaire up top with the YMIR. You can use the mook to WE both elites. Then position your squad and circle back to the right and pick off targets with WE - no multitarget goodness, but just avoiding fire from the YMIR more than justifies the use of WE at that point.



At every point, Heavy WE can be used to hit more than 1 target, usually two, but sometimes three. The first two encounters go by really fast since the Elite can't count on cover to save him, and your only real trouble are the Heavies, which you will be Throwing around.



Again, I think you have a problem catching multiple enemies in WE because you're using Sing (and Pull Field). It's the exception rather than the rule that WE doesn't hit at least two targets.

[Kurupt87]

Vanguards are in no way weak, read this thread, its just that vanguards are hard to play and very risky. you will die more as a vanguard than any other class because one ballsup will get you killed, it doesn't even have to be a big ballsup. but that is the point, and how the vanguard was advertised, as being high risk high reward. in interviews about the vanguard class pre release the class was said to reward skill more than any other class, and that the vangaurd can clear rooms in the time it takes other classes to walk in, it is just really hard to do, but it is definately doable.
http://social.biowar...8/index/1061080

edit: i do find though, that as a vanguard i completely ignore shockwave and only rarely use rank 1 pull, but that is because the way they work  on insanity doesn't fit into the vanguard playstyle, which is charge their face and hit it with the biggest gun you've got.

Modifié par Kurupt87, 11 février 2010 - 08:12 .

[Flash_in_the_flesh]

Kurupt87 wrote...

Vanguards are in no way weak

Nobody said vanguards are weak.
It's not the problem.

Kurupt87 wrote...

edit: i do find though, that as a vanguard i completely ignore shockwave and only rarely use rank 1 pull

This is the problem.
Vanguards role is reduced to charge and shoot.

[Varenus Luckmann]

Playing on Insane, I haven't had a huge problem, but I see your point.

Overload, however, not being usable on all Synthethics and all enemies, regardless of wheter they have Shields or Armor, is bloody retarded.

I could see barrier blocking it. But not armor or shields.

Edit: Also, why must the "they're not weak" "counterargument" always crop up in threads like this? It's a retarded non-issue. The discussion is about mechanics, not relative power level.

Mass Effect 2 severely limits the number of abilities of Shepard and doubly so for companions. That they should all stay useful as a point of "work together, lol, u need 1 combat 1 biotic an 1 tech lol" is a given. As of now, I'm just not feeling it. I consistanly use only two abilities. Warp and Pull, picking off enemies 1-by-1.

Modifié par Varenus Luckmann, 11 février 2010 - 08:41 .

[Kurupt87]

its not reduced to charge and shoot, i personally much prefer the hectic type of play charge and shoot gives, i could easily take a more conservative role as a vanguard, sticking back and using pull/shockwave alot more, obviously in conjunction with teamates or specific bonus talents. but that type of play is what the sentinel is about, hes supposed to stick back and biotic/tech attack away the enemies defences and then finish em off with his gun with an ammo power*. its not that you can't use the powers as a vanguard, its that you shouldn't, your cd's should be being used on charge, like a soldiers on adr rush or an infiltrators on cloak'n'scope. its just the optimal way of playing the class.
*edit: sentinel is also much better at it as he can stand up and shoot and not die because of tech armour.

Modifié par Kurupt87, 11 février 2010 - 08:50 .

[Roxlimn]

Varenus Luckmann:



It pops up because the OP decided that it was part of the conversation. Also, Throw and Singularity are fantastic powers. Choosing not to use them is okay, but that's YOUR choice. You can're constrained to NOT use them, and there are ways to use them profitably.

[Kroniker81]

Roxlimn wrote...

Varenus Luckmann:

It pops up because the OP decided that it was part of the conversation. Also, Throw and Singularity are fantastic powers. Choosing not to use them is okay, but that's YOUR choice. You can're constrained to NOT use them, and there are ways to use them profitably.

Hilarious.

[Schneidend]

XxTaLoNxX wrote...

1) At the Hardcore and Insanity difficulties the main problem is that certain powers are disabled against certain "barriers". That's just silly BioWare! The easiest fix to this problems is to remove the disability. It keeps the powers balanced but doesn't  "gimp" certain classes. It also doesn't help that during load screens there is a line that says something like "All powers can do damage to shields, armor, and barriers." When in fact you disable that at the higher difficulties where players who have beaten the game go to challenge themselves but still have fun. Some players ONLY play the hard difficulties... why deny them the fun that other players enjoy at lower, less challenging, difficulties? Easy fix. Remove the disability.

You can use any power against any enemy, and it will do damage to their defenses. The red shading and red arrow do not prevent you from using an ability, it is just recommending that you don't waste your global cooldown on a less effective ability.

2) Overload doesn't work against nonsynthetic enemies with a red health bar. They still have weapons and you should still have the opportunity to overheat those since that IS a main statistic of the power that is displayed in the skill tree. Come on BioWare... since when in any RPGish game could you not cast Shock on someone to some sort of advantage? Easy fix. Remove the disability.

There is no disability to use Overload. You can use it whenever you want, and it should still disable enemy weapons. In fact, I believe it will only do this when an enemy has no defenses but Health. I could be wrong.

3) Vanguards do not start with Barrier. This causes a serious balance issue with that class in higher difficulties since you can't actually use the "Vanguard Charge" without immediately dieing. Combine that with already subpar Biotics, and "up close" effective weapons and you have the worst class in the game. Seriously I am not even sure if just Barrier could help the class at higher difficulties. There may need to be an overhaul on the class but... Easy fix at this point... start the class with Barrier in addition to the rest of the skills. Start small would be the best hope in keeping a decent class balance.

Vanguards don't need Barrier. Charge already has the shield boosting effect of Barrier built-in. If you are immediately dying after a Charge, then you are not using Charge properly. You need to charge isolated enemies, or non-isolated enemies that are near reliable cover. Charge's purpose is to refresh your shield and get you into shotgun/melee range without dying on the way there. Hit an enemy with Charge, finish off one or two (killing two won't happen often unless you have Heavy Charge) nearby enemies, then get to cover. You don't have to shoot the guy hit by the charge, but it is easier since he'll be in the middle of a stagger animation even if he had defenses up when you charged.

The classes are balanced just fine. It is clear the only thing that needs improvement is your understanding of the game.

Modifié par Schneidend, 11 février 2010 - 10:23 .

[Kroniker81]

gr00grams wrote...

Wow.

I was just going to post that Roxlimn.

Seems to many here simply whine about the changes, and don't attempt any creative ways to succeed, just whine that it's not so easy as it was in ME1.

Adept is a machine.
A freaking machine.
I slaughtered insanity with my adept, and am in the process of making some vids for youtube to emphasize this, as apparently so many just cannot grasp how to roll with it.

Like cast a singularity, strip one guys shields, then warp combo him, hits everything, commence annihilation on the cleanup with pulls/shockwaves/you name its. etc.

That said, also there is no other attack that I have found that does equal damage TO the protections better than warp. Not even sniper infiltrators.

Like one warp by endgame insanity+ would remove an entire barrier, or entire armor etc. it would remove entire mobs protections if it was a combo etc. Then just clean up with a shockwave from Jack or similar.

It's like those that don't want or like the changes simply refuse to listen to any logic.

Yeah all those 'whiners' never have been able to finish ME 2 as Adept on Insanity. /facepalm
And yeah, it is totally logical that since ME 1 biotics have worsened so much that most cannot really be used until armor AND shields are down and many enemies are just 2 shots away from dying.
Unlike in ME 1 where mass mattered most for biotics to work which actually made sense.

But hey, talking about logic here right? /sigh

[Roxlimn]

Kroniker81:



Story-driven pseudoscience has no place in a game mechanical discussion. Neither does rhetorical commentary, nor straw man arguments.



On Normal, most enemies have no defenses whatsoever. It works exactly like it did in ME1.