106 réponses à ce sujet

[Kordesh]

You're given two options, rewrite them, which even in previous choice trees is considered unethical, or destroy them which was the original plan. I choose to destroy them based on the fact that it would have been unethical to rewrite them and because it would likely cause some crazy schism within the geth when they became rejoined. Instead it decided that the destruction option was worth +30 renegade and gave some organic centric generalization about blowing **** up. Honestly, it was a really disappointing ending to one of the more interesting missions.

[Stoko981]

I rewrote them. For a start, the existing Geth are on my side against the Reapers. This way, I'm greatly swelling their ranks. But more than that, Legion wanted it that way. He failed to reach a consensus, true, but the number of processes that favoured the rewrite outnumbered the number that favoured the destruction by two.

[Spam Eelam]

Geth are robots not people. Hence rewrite is a matter of future liability with Quarians, not an ethical problem. In that scenario, saving them for legion's benefit seems pretty paragon to me.



/2 cents

[The Shelf]

They're just computer programs. They don't even resemble anything sentient unless you network tons of them together like Legion. Most of the Geth we've killed in ME1 and 2 were just mindless drones. My point is, it's not unethical to re-program a computer.

[Skyblade012]

Things are not quite as clear cut as they seem.

First, there is nothing definitive saying that Nazara reprogrammed them. The heretics "accepted his logic" is the exact phrase used. The geth do not always agree on everything. Remember, Legion's higher level runtimes are split on the reprogramming decision. These splits likely occur frequently among the geth, and would last either until all options were fully explored and all of the geth runtimes agreed ("reached consensus"), or until a situation came up like the one with Sovereign. The geth which disagree leave, and the others let them. "Their conclusion was correct for them, ours was correct for us. Neither result was an error." Had it been a reprogramming, Legion would have made it much more obvious, as well as had to explain why the reprogramming would have failed to change all of the geth.

Second, the reprogramming does not entirely void their free will. It changes a baseline algorithm, which in turn affects the results of their entire mathematical logic structure, and would change it to fit in line with the original geth. Yet the actual amount of free will they possess would not change. The heretics currently have no real choice. They follow Sovereign because of their logic path, and as long as they are stuck with that logic path, they will not choose another. The true geth, similarly, are frozen on their path by their own conclusions, drawn from similarly fixed programming. If the true geth do indeed still have free will, then the heretics, once reprogrammed, will as well. It would be a programming equivalent to counseling a paranoid or schizophrenic organic entity. Changing the direction of the choices, but not eliminating them. If it does indeed eliminate all choices, then the geth never had free will in the first place, and the point is moot.

Third, if it works, it is a more permanent solution. Destroying the heretic base is of great help to the rest of the galaxy in fighting the heretic geth, yes, but there is no proof that all of the heretic geth runtimes remain on the station. The heretics might still be able to rebuild and become a new threat. The virus, however, is broadcast through the FTL network, and would hit every heretic as it reconnected. Those that remained isolated would be outnumbered and would diminish in capacity whenever a connection was made, until, eventually, they would either all be converted, or they would lack the numbers needed to achieve sentience.

And, finally, it is not a guaranteed solution. The heretics, upon receiving the new baseline operations, would reanalyze their paths and return to the geth, yes. However, Legion itself explains that the true geth would then integrate the experiences that the heretics had while serving under Sovereign, and that the results of that reintegration would be impossible to predict. If the integration causes another reexamination of the path the geth are forging toward the future, it might bring about a new consensus that we might not be happy with. Perhaps they might not follow the Reapers, but they may still come to the conclusion that it would be best if organics were eliminated. An unlikely possibility, but still a possibility. Never underestimate free will.

That is my information from the thread on this subject only 3 pages down.  These things go by way too quickly.

[Scerendo]

As a whole I think the whole Paragon/Renegade system in the second game can be a bit borked at times – for example some of the renegade actions seem personally feasible for a Paragon character to do, e.g. shooting Fade’s guards before they can fire at you.

[BatarianBob]

I don't follow.  You decided to blow them up and you're disappointed that Shepard blew them up?

[Chasedanger]

I think this mission is what's defined as a HARD choice. Which BioWare said there would be hard choices. It's a real head scratcher for me to, but I think it's meant to be this way.

[Legbiter]

Toasters had it coming.

[Fishy]

The whole thing's .. A Paragon it's an idiot who want to save every puppy.

While a renegade make decision with logic and intelligence(Aka pragmatic)

[Alanosborn1991]

As Legion says: They will destroy your people because there gods (The Reapers) tell them to, you CANNOT negotiate with them.



Rewrite is the best thing you can do to have a geth army against the incoming Reaper fleet.



There is no point in blowing them up



In rewriting them, Legion will lead an army of his own against the reapers and probably work with the quarians so that they can have there homeworld back.



Which by the way they are keeping for them, Legion's geth on the quarian homeworld only fought back because they attacked them first.



They want peace and to make there own future.



REWRITE IS BEST OPTION



/thread

[mainz09]

I can see how the renegade/paragone point system is somewhat flawed. Another scenario is when you look through the scope of Garrus' weapon and have the option of blowing the head off of a robot that is coming to KILL YOU. If you don't take the shot, a moment later you have to shoot it anyway. So I don't see why any points should be rewarded.

I chose to blow the geth up but either way I know it will some how come back to bite us on the ass in ME3.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

The Shelf wrote...

They're just computer programs. They don't even resemble anything sentient unless you network tons of them together like Legion.

An individual geth may not be sentient, but when you fought them they were all linked with each other. At those moments they weren't "just barely" sentient, they were just as intelligent as any other intelligent organic, just even smarter.

So you can't just dismiss them.

y point is, it's not unethical to re-program a computer.

However it is unethical to brain wash a computer, whether it is an organic one or synthetic one. Rewiping a network is rewiping a lot of intelligent beings.

[Skyblade012]

Scerendo wrote...

As a whole I think the whole Paragon/Renegade system in the second game can be a bit borked at times – for example some of the renegade actions seem personally feasible for a Paragon character to do, e.g. shooting Fade’s guards before they can fire at you.

And, oddly enough, you don't get Renegade points for doing that.  At least I didn't.  When that scene was over, complete with guards dead, I got a +Paragon bonus, but no +Renegade bonus.

[Alanosborn1991]

Why did you guys blow them up? If they are rewritten they will be like Legion



They will be FRIENDLY and on the ALLIANCE side against the reapers.



Legion will delete the virus after it is done, there is NO WAY they will come back to worshipping the Reapers.

[77boy84]

I like to think Legion saying he doesn't know what will happen if the brainwashed geth reintegrate with the rest of the geth as awesome foreshadowing that'll end up having the geth go crazy on shepard.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Alanosborn1991 wrote...

Why did you guys blow them up? If they are rewritten they will be like Legion

The problem is how in the dialogue it makes it seem like rewriting was at first brainwashing them, then later Legion stated it was fixing a math error that was made by the Reapers, suggesting the Heretics have been "indoctrinated" via a virus.

But when you hear Legion say "They will have to accept our Truth" it made it seem like forced conversion, which spits in the face of free will.

I chose to blow up the station when I was under the impression that Legion wanted me to brainwash the heretics, later I found out I was actually fixing an error and even further the heretics still could choose to hate organics if they wish.

[OH-UP-THIS!]

Let me guess, you have NO idea how a computer even operates, huh?

[Vorscythe]

Besids, didn't Legion say that the heretic geth's memories would be abosrbed back into the main geth's 'brain'? It seems like it would be a good risk to rewrite them to get a chance to learn anything more about the Reapers.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

ohupthis wrote...

Let me guess, you have NO idea how a computer even operates, huh?

I doubt you'd know how a Geth computer operates as well. 

[Vaenier]

Would you use a neurological toxin that changes how people think in order to save a group of Reaper cultists? or just blow them up with a nuke...

[Alanosborn1991]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

Alanosborn1991 wrote...

Why did you guys blow them up? If they are rewritten they will be like Legion

The problem is how in the dialogue it makes it seem like rewriting was at first brainwashing them, then later Legion stated it was fixing a math error that was made by the Reapers, suggesting the Heretics have been "indoctrinated" via a virus.

But when you hear Legion say "They will have to accept our Truth" it made it seem like forced conversion, which spits in the face of free will.

I chose to blow up the station when I was under the impression that Legion wanted me to brainwash the heretics, later I found out I was actually fixing an error and even further the heretics still could choose to hate organics if they wish.

Would you rather be fighting the Reapers with the aid of the Geth in ME3 or be fighting both Reapers+Geth?

[Skyblade012]

Let me guess, you have NO idea how a computer even operates, huh?

If by that you mean "you have NO idea how an AI operates" you are correct. Currently, AIs do not exist. We can only speculate on them, we can not make any definitive claims. The geth are (supposedly) not merely programs at this point, but actual sentient beings with free will. If that is true, no, I cannot be sure how they will operate, as it would fall well outside the guildlines of standard programming and computer operation, which I know very well.

But I addressed that point in my previous post, which, once again, no one bothers to read, because tossing around insults without paying attention to the discussion is so much more fun.

Modifié par Skyblade012, 11 février 2010 - 03:30 .

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Alanosborn1991 wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

Alanosborn1991 wrote...

Why did you guys blow them up? If they are rewritten they will be like Legion

The problem is how in the dialogue it makes it seem like rewriting was at first brainwashing them, then later Legion stated it was fixing a math error that was made by the Reapers, suggesting the Heretics have been "indoctrinated" via a virus.

But when you hear Legion say "They will have to accept our Truth" it made it seem like forced conversion, which spits in the face of free will.

I chose to blow up the station when I was under the impression that Legion wanted me to brainwash the heretics, later I found out I was actually fixing an error and even further the heretics still could choose to hate organics if they wish.

Would you rather be fighting the Reapers with the aid of the Geth in ME3 or be fighting both Reapers+Geth?

It isn't a matter of who I would rather fight.

[The Shelf]

Skyblade012 wrote...

If by that you mean "you have NO idea how an AI operates" you are correct. Currently, AIs do not exist. We can only speculate on them, we can not make any definitive claims. The geth are (supposedly) not merely programs at this point, but actual sentient beings with free will. If that is true, no, I cannot be sure how they will operate, as it would fall well outside the guildlines of standard programming and computer operation, which I know very well.

But I addressed that point in my previous post, which, once again, no one bothers to read, because tossing around insults without paying attention to the discussion is so much more fun.

Actually AI does exist.  It's used all the time to solve complex computer problems.  People have a huge misunderstanding about what AI really is.  It's not a personality.  AI is just a classification of algorithms used to solve problems when you don't have perfect knowledge of a puzzle.  Geth are not alive, folks.