106 réponses à ce sujet

[Vaenier]

Geth are alive. Or people are just complex organic computers. its one or the other.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

The Shelf wrote...
Actually AI does exist.  It's used all the time to solve complex computer problems.  People have a huge misunderstanding about what AI really is.  It's not a personality.  

We don't have AI anywhere near the level of the Geth then, okay? Although what you're talking about is considered a VI in the ME universe.

AI is just a classification of algorithms used to solve problems when you don't have perfect knowledge of a puzzle.  Geth are not alive, folks

You'd have a hard time convincing me of that, considering they're sapient, have culture, art, practice philosophy, etc.

If you want to be stubborn and stick with the current scientific definition of life, sure they're not alive. As far as I'm concerned they, they are the first of a new kind of lifeform.

Modifié par Mikazukinoyaiba2, 11 février 2010 - 03:42 .

[Alanosborn1991]

As Legion says: They will destroy your people because there gods (The Reapers) tell them to, you CANNOT negotiate with them.







Rewrite is the best thing you can do to have a geth army against the incoming Reaper fleet.







There is no point in blowing them up







In rewriting them, Legion will lead an army of his own against the reapers and probably work with the quarians so that they can have there homeworld back.







Which by the way they are keeping for them, Legion's geth on the quarian homeworld only fought back because they attacked them first.







They want peace and to make there own future.







REWRITE IS BEST OPTION







/thread

[Skyblade012]

The Shelf wrote...

Skyblade012 wrote...

If by that you mean "you have NO idea how an AI operates" you are correct. Currently, AIs do not exist. We can only speculate on them, we can not make any definitive claims. The geth are (supposedly) not merely programs at this point, but actual sentient beings with free will. If that is true, no, I cannot be sure how they will operate, as it would fall well outside the guildlines of standard programming and computer operation, which I know very well.

But I addressed that point in my previous post, which, once again, no one bothers to read, because tossing around insults without paying attention to the discussion is so much more fun.

Actually AI does exist.  It's used all the time to solve complex computer problems.  People have a huge misunderstanding about what AI really is.  It's not a personality.  AI is just a classification of algorithms used to solve problems when you don't have perfect knowledge of a puzzle.  Geth are not alive, folks.

If you set up the interpretation, certainly, you can declare whatever you want about them.  The interpretation given to us by the ME universe, however, flat out states that the geth collective is self-aware.

[ydaraishy]

There is an extremely strong argument to be made that the geth are actually conscious, and it is rather unethical to rewrite the consciousnesses of your enemies to make them think what you think rather than to fight them on equal terms; in this respect rewriting them seems more like a Renegade option rather than a Paragon one.

[Splinter Cell 108]

According to Legion 553 of the Geth connected to their network agreed on rewriting and 551 didn't. At least I think those were the numbers. I rewrote them. I think it's better to let them live, that way the Geth get more firepower and they aren't all exterminated by the Council races or the Reapers.

[cronshaw8]

I think there is a good chance the re-write won't take in ME3. It is the Paragon choice and people have be incessantly ****ing that there are no negative repercussions for the paragon choices. This is a perfect opportunity for BioWare to pull the rug out from under you. Too many unknowns when it comes to geth mental processes. Legion himself says there is no guarantee the re-write will take. I say blast those 1s and 0s into the void.

[The Shelf]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

We don't have AI anywhere near the level of the Geth then, okay? Although what you're talking about is considered a VI in the ME universe.

You'd have a hard time convincing me of that, considering they're sapient, have culture, art, practice philosophy, etc.

If you want to be stubborn and stick with the current scientific definition of life, sure they're not alive. As far as I'm concerned they, they are the first of a new kind of lifeform.

You realize the Geth are VIs right?  They only give the appearance of being an AI when they're networked together.  In other words, if you get enough VIs together, they're able to solve much bigger problems than they can individually.  Whether or not there is a "critical mass" of problem solving ability that suddenly becomes sentience is worthy of debate.  I'm not being stubborn, I'm relaying what I have learned through my brief study of real AI theory.  If you want to be stubborn and ignore reality, then I can't persuade you of anything.

This has actually made me realize something, though.  The Geth at most are just a single being.  Individual Geth are not intelligent at all.  Even Legion explains this.  So by re-programming the rebel Geth, it's more akin to the techniques psychologists use to help people overcome undesired personality traits.

[Inferno Sock]

Stoko981 wrote...

I rewrote them. For a start, the existing Geth are on my side against the Reapers. This way, I'm greatly swelling their ranks. But more than that, Legion wanted it that way. He failed to reach a consensus, true, but the number of processes that favoured the rewrite outnumbered the number that favoured the destruction by two.

ditto

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

The Shelf wrote...


You realize the Geth are VIs right?

I realize that the Mass Effect universe defines the Geth as AIs and not VIs.

I'm not being stubborn, I'm relaying what I have learned through my brief study of real AI theory.  If you want to be stubborn and ignore reality, then I can't persuade you of anything.

If you don't want to argue in terms of the fiction, fine by me. Want to start arguing about how none of these characters are real in the first place? So we can discuss all of the nothingness?

You can argue from your college education if you want, we're going to argue through the canon. Mind joining us?

Modifié par Mikazukinoyaiba2, 11 février 2010 - 03:56 .

[Kileyan]

Legbiter wrote...

Toasters had it coming.

Thats fine, as long as ME3 doesn't end with us walking naked into the jungle while we send the Normandy on a collision course with the local star.

In other words, I hope Bioware are better writers than that show.

[ydaraishy]

The Shelf wrote...

You realize the Geth are VIs right?  They only give the appearance of being an AI when they're networked together.  In other words, if you get enough VIs together, they're able to solve much bigger problems than they can individually.  Whether or not there is a "critical mass" of problem solving ability that suddenly becomes sentience is worthy of debate.  I'm not being stubborn, I'm relaying what I have learned through my brief study of real AI theory.  If you want to be stubborn and ignore reality, then I can't persuade you of anything.

This has actually made me realize something, though.  The Geth at most are just a single being.  Individual Geth are not intelligent at all.  Even Legion explains this.  So by re-programming the rebel Geth, it's more akin to the techniques psychologists use to help people overcome undesired personality traits.

Do you mean geth as in an individual geth subprogram or a "mobile platform"?

Of course geth subprograms are stupid -- they only perform one task after all -- but Legion is arguably intelligent and conscious and has not got much in common with a VI at all.

[flem1]

Alanosborn1991 wrote...

Rewrite is the best thing you can do to have a geth army against the incoming Reaper fleet.

Legion tells you that the heretics are a small fraction of the overall Geth population.

Furthermore, if you choose destruct, he tells you there's a nonzero chance the rewrite won't "take".  And what about their knowledge of the original virus?  Too dangerous.

[The_Undecided]

The Shelf wrote...
This has actually made me realize something, though.  The Geth at most are just a single being.  Individual Geth are not intelligent at all.  Even Legion explains this.

Where does Legion explain that? Individual Geth have complete free will, it's just that usually they all agree on things. The choice to leave with Sovereign was one of the few choices the Geth had any real disagreement about.

[Dark Specie]

cronshaw8 wrote...

I think there is a good chance the re-write won't take in ME3. It is the Paragon choice and people have be incessantly ****ing that there are no negative repercussions for the paragon choices. This is a perfect opportunity for BioWare to pull the rug out from under you. Too many unknowns when it comes to geth mental processes. Legion himself says there is no guarantee the re-write will take. I say blast those 1s and 0s into the void.

Paragon choices have been shown to not be necressarilly right at all times. Like, saving the council means that the council is right now still apparently ignoring the threat of the Reapers. And in ME2, blowing up the Collector base could very well prove to be a "pull", as such. Some of the smaller paragon choices have also beens hown as  being potentially incorrect, as such, such as sparing that volus-killer during the quest to recruit Samara...

Regardless, I choose the rewritte choice because it would strenghten the Geth faction which opposses the Reapers. It may mean trouble later on, though (perhaps only to the quarians though, if they decide to go to war with the Geth after the Reapers are defeated), but we'll see.

[OH-UP-THIS!]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

ohupthis wrote...

Let me guess, you have NO idea how a computer even operates, huh?

I doubt you'd know how a Geth computer operates as well. 

Oh well I/O, then, on or off. you choose
Re-write vs destroy
Personally............re-writing them doesn't involve rebuilding more Computer-based-units! CLEAR ENOUGH?
There is NO EMOTIONS, ERGO no pain or suffering.

[Lmaoboat]

The Shelf wrote...

You realize the Geth are VIs right?  They only give the appearance of being an AI when they're networked together.  In other words, if you get enough VIs together, they're able to solve much bigger problems than they can individually.  Whether or not there is a "critical mass" of problem solving ability that suddenly becomes sentience is worthy of debate.  I'm not being stubborn, I'm relaying what I have learned through my brief study of real AI theory.  If you want to be stubborn and ignore reality, then I can't persuade you of anything.

Lemme let you in on a little secret. You sitting down? Ready? Okay:
This game is fiction, "real AI theory" has no relavence.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

ohupthis wrote...
There is NO EMOTIONS, ERGO no pain or suffering.

Sorry, the ability to feel "pain" or "suffering" (which can't be objectively defined) doesn't really define whether something is self-aware or sapient to me. <_<

The Geth have a desire to exist, they therefore must have the capability to experience discomfort, concern, hope, and other "emotions". Most likely of course they don't experience it in the same way organics do, nor do they lack the control since it isn't hormone based given that they are beings of logic and numbers.

Modifié par Mikazukinoyaiba2, 11 février 2010 - 04:13 .

[Mr0TYuH]

I think it comes down to this. If you destroy them, you maintain the status quo. The heretics will still follow the Reapers, and the geth will still oppose them. While you are assuring the Reapers have allies, you are also maintaining your own allies. If you rewrite the heretics and they rejoin the geth, the sharing of their experiences will change the equation. All geth may decide to follow the Reapers, even with the math change, because the heretics' experiences will add new variables to the equation.



So, destroying the heretics is the pragmatic choice, hence Renegade. The virus is the optimist's choice, since you're banking that the geth will continue to create their own future, hence Paragon.



Anyway, that's one theory.

[Gill Kaiser]

I was completely on the fence for this choice. I thought both options were about equal. In the end I chose to rewrite because the rewrite option was favoured by two more of Legion's programs than the destruction option.

[Balek-Vriege]

Mr0TYuH wrote...

I think it comes down to this. If you destroy them, you maintain the status quo. The heretics will still follow the Reapers, and the geth will still oppose them. While you are assuring the Reapers have allies, you are also maintaining your own allies. If you rewrite the heretics and they rejoin the geth, the sharing of their experiences will change the equation. All geth may decide to follow the Reapers, even with the math change, because the heretics' experiences will add new variables to the equation.

So, destroying the heretics is the pragmatic choice, hence Renegade. The virus is the optimist's choice, since you're banking that the geth will continue to create their own future, hence Paragon.

Anyway, that's one theory.

I agree.  The rengade is definately the better safe than sorry one.  The rewrite is dangerous but if the true Geth still come to the same conclusion and remain willing to figure out their own destiny they will have all the knowledge the heretics have of the Reapers.

I picked the rewrite firstly because the heretics definately came to a consensus that their rewrite would work and convince true Geth to join them.  Secondly Legion's attempt at consensus ended in a something 73 to something 71 decision in favour of a rewrite.  Therefore I treated it as a democratic vote (something Legion is incapable of doing) instead of a concensus.

[SharpEdgeSoda]

Dude, you did the right thing. DO what YOU think is RIGHT!

IGNORE PARAGON/RENEGADE POINTS, and do what you gut tells ya!
*see sig*

[Kordesh]

Lots of people who are going with "rewrite was the only logical choice!" seem to be mistaken about a few things.

1: The Geth are not VIs, they are AIs, and AIs in Mass Effect are not your co-op partner who stumbles into walls a lot as we call AI in our world. They are questionably sentient, and even more so given what you learn from Legion.

2: Its more than "they're just machines" due to this, and the entire time approaching the choice, you're given comparisons as to how Geth are very similar to sentient organics and how they may even possibly have religion and various other "living" traits. Especially given that Legion brings up that they would not force their ways on other beings, and then suggests that they could do exactly that with the rewrite.

My problem with the choice wasn't that it was a "hard decision." My problem was that it was a bit disingenuous and assumed that if you wanted to blow them up, it was for some gun ho macho man "Go Organics!" agenda, not because you felt essentially brainwashing a group of possibly sentient creatures and perhaps throwing both societies into complete chaos following integration (remember the multiple times its mentioned they have no idea what would happen when they returned as their experiences would suddenly become part of the "collective") might be a BAD thing.

It's not so much what I feel is the right choice. My problem is I don't think you were really given a fair set of options given the circumstance.

Modifié par Kordesh, 11 février 2010 - 04:46 .

[SharpEdgeSoda]

Oh, I do what I think is right, end up with 100P/40R, and I shoce the blow those suckas up. Don't care for the Geth. Sure, they did nothing wrong, and they technically don't mind the quarians, but at the same time, they don't do much else either. Geth simply "exist" as a species. I wouldn't mind an option to wipe em all out, but I won't, say, risk unneccesary lives to do so.

[DarkNova50]

I looked at the Heretic Geth like they were organic beings. From my discussions with Legion, it seemed like they came to their decision to follow the Reapers of their own 'free will.' As such, I thought it was morally wrong to essentially brainwash them, and force them to reject the Reapers.



Basically, I took the stance that all sentient life, even the Geth, have the right to believe whatever they want, of their own free will.



Even if that means I'll have to kill them for it.