106 réponses à ce sujet

[SharpEdgeSoda]

And people who say "rewrite is the only logical choice" are being arrogant. It, in case you have forgotten, is a choice. What makes it right or wrong is intention. And your trying to tell people that a different politcal (I'd call the Geth a political hot-topic, like the Genophage) viewpoint is wrong.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

SharpEdgeSoda wrote...
they don't do much else either. Geth simply "exist" as a species.

That's hardly different from any other species. Life only aim to maintain its own existence.

A horrible excuse to dismiss the value of their existence.

Modifié par Mikazukinoyaiba2, 11 février 2010 - 05:00 .

[kennyme2]

For me, rewriting them is a bad idea because:



They could infect the rest of the Geth. Look at the Normandy, that tiny Reaper IFF was able to disable the entire ship. I don't trust anything that ha been touched by the Reapers.



Rewriting the Heretics won't make tham much difference when building a Geth army. Remember, there are possibly billions of Geth beyond the Perseus veil, so what is on space station compared to that?

[The Black Ghost]

Just another of example of Bioware messing up the paragon/renegade thing.



Technically, you could choose either option and be doing the right thing, but what would make it paragon or renegade is your MOTIVATION--"I like to kill things" or "its what I have to do to save live". That is the problem with the morality system.

[ABCoLD]

The Shelf wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

We don't have AI anywhere near the level of the Geth then, okay? Although what you're talking about is considered a VI in the ME universe.

You'd have a hard time convincing me of that, considering they're sapient, have culture, art, practice philosophy, etc.

If you want to be stubborn and stick with the current scientific definition of life, sure they're not alive. As far as I'm concerned they, they are the first of a new kind of lifeform.

You realize the Geth are VIs right?  They only give the appearance of being an AI when they're networked together.  In other words, if you get enough VIs together, they're able to solve much bigger problems than they can individually.  Whether or not there is a "critical mass" of problem solving ability that suddenly becomes sentience is worthy of debate.  I'm not being stubborn, I'm relaying what I have learned through my brief study of real AI theory.  If you want to be stubborn and ignore reality, then I can't persuade you of anything.

This has actually made me realize something, though.  The Geth at most are just a single being.  Individual Geth are not intelligent at all.  Even Legion explains this.  So by re-programming the rebel Geth, it's more akin to the techniques psychologists use to help people overcome undesired personality traits.

VIs are personality constructs capable of performing complex tasks but are incapable of free will.  The first time the geth questioned if it had a soul or not it proved that it was capable of independent thought.  Geth=AI (This is based off of in-game codex information, not 'real-world' AI theory.)

Geth simply are strange that due to their linked consciousness they can have millions of individuals networked together, actually see all sides of the same argument and eventually reach a consensus in a truly democratic (communist?) way.

Chosing to subvert the will of an intelligent being, even for good intentions is unethical, if not immoral.  There's no amount of 'good sense' about the positive things that will happen because of this choice that makes it the proper one.  The ends never justify the means.  The renegade/paragon options here were borked.

[Zayin]

In a game series of hard choices, it doesn't seem to be *that* hard a choice to me.



Depending on who you have in your party, at least one companion (Thane) points out there is no difference between rewriting the heretic Geth and outright destroying their base. From a pragmatic line of thinking, IF they are going to "die" anyway, might as well keep their resources intact for the peaceful Geth to use against the Reapers. The knowledge the Heretics have may be of use to the True Geth in fighting the Reapers. Whatever you do stops the Heretics.



It's said that the Heretics are only about like 5% of the Geth population. (I'll have to redo that mission now to find out the amount.) So even if you destroy all of them, the true Geth won't really be hurting for resources. But why throw away resources when you have the Reapers awakening?



Sorry, for those of you who had a hard time with this choice, I'm not trying to insult you. I'm just showing the perspective I had on the matter thanks to my companions.

[TrojanGuy]

I was playing through the first time as a Paragon and when I was given the option, rewrite them was on the top and blow them up was on the bottom, so I assumed (correctly) that rewriting them was the Paragon option and blowing them up was the Renegade option. But I agree that if the options weren't always like that, I wouldn't have known which one was the "good" one and which was the "bad" one. Especially because I had Jack with me and she said something earlier that rewriting them was like her and those other kids being brainwashed and wasn't ethical.

[Tony_Knightcrawler]

Taranatar9 wrote...

I don't follow.  You decided to blow them up and you're disappointed that Shepard blew them up?

QFT

I rewrote them because they were probably indoctrinated when they made their "decision" to leave.

[Homey C-Dawg]

I blew up the ship. I figured re-writing the heretics goes against geth principles, as you are forcing the heretics to accept "your truth". They made their decision back when the normal geth exiled them.

Modifié par Homey C-Dawg, 11 février 2010 - 05:28 .

[Speakeasy13]

SharpEdgeSoda wrote...

Oh, I do what I think is right, end up with 100P/40R, and I shoce the blow those suckas up. Don't care for the Geth. Sure, they did nothing wrong, and they technically don't mind the quarians, but at the same time, they don't do much else either. Geth simply "exist" as a species. I wouldn't mind an option to wipe em all out, but I won't, say, risk unneccesary lives to do so.

I like your signature:) It's exactly MY philosophy when playing the game.

That said, I must disagree what you said in red due to its self-contradictory nature. Unless you don't consider the Geth to be alive, destroying these Geth would be more than risking their LIVES.

And if you really want to justify rewriting as paragon, here's a thought: the heretics didn't choose to worship the Reapers. They were infected by a virus. So rewriting would not be forcing your truth onto them, more like undoing the damage others had done, and restoring the system to a functional state.

Modifié par Speakeasy13, 11 février 2010 - 05:33 .

[Volourn]

"Technically, you could choose either option and be doing the right thing, but what would make it paragon or renegade is your MOTIVATION--"I like to kill things" or "its what I have to do to save live". That is the problem with the morality system"



L0L Telling BIO they got their system wrong. Plus, prargon and renegade is not neccessary about motivation. It's not good vs eviil. Afterall, Shepard's 'motivatiion' in the series is to stop the reapers and save humanity.



Thyat said, this along with the genophage are two of the ahrdest 'morality' choices I've seen in any game espicially since they have such large scale and potentially long term cosnequences with so many question marks. Good stuff. The debate proves this.





"I figured re-writing the heretics goes against geth principles, as you are forcing the heretics to accept "your truth". They made their decision back when the normal geth exiled them."



Not quite true. All the virus does is rewrite the math but it doesn't guarantee that the heretic geth will see things your way. In fact, there *is* potential for ALLm geth to side with the reapers becvause of it. Or, maybe, a bunch of splintered geth. I could very well see different groups one that allies with reapers, one that doesn't but hates meatheads, some that are neutral but become racist against quarians, others that treat quarisn like gods, etc., etc.



Hell, in soime ways, Legion current talks of the quarians as 'gods' as he refers to them as the 'creators' and with reference not hatred. Just look at the 'argument' he and Tali have. It's pretty much one sided...



Awesome.

[binaryemperor]

I figured since the Geth are networked AI. Adding the heretic Geth to Legion's AI faction would strengthen it, making that network less likely to be sabotaged likewise, due to being bigger and more advanced after having more individual minds added.

Modifié par binaryemperor, 11 février 2010 - 05:58 .

[The_Undecided]

I really agonized over this choice. While the game clearly labels the "right" and "wrong" choices I also couldn't help but wonder if reprogramming the heretics was worse than killing them. I had brought legion along for several missions and had grown quite attached to him (and by extension the other Geth). The normal Geth make a big deal about free will and letting other species determine their own future, but Legion seemed fine with the prospect of reprogramming millions of other Geth.



In the end I figured that the heretic Geth had formed a religion about a force that was bent on exterminating all intelligent life in the galaxy most likely including the Geth themselves. If the Keepers and Collectors are any indication religious devotion is not good enough for the Reapers, they demand zero free will and would either take that away from the Geth or just kill them once they outlived their usefulness.



Given knowledge of the above any kind of logic that says to follow the Reapers is just plain wrong/insane. Basically the heretic Geth either didn't understand the Reapers plans (and it's doubtfully they would listen to reason) or they formed a dangerous suicidal terrorist cult on a galactic scale. If a human agreed to that sort of thing I would want them put in a mental hospital.



Reprogramming the Geth seems to be the merciful action, between shooting a dangerous lunatic and healing their mind what would you choose?

[Alanosborn1991]

As Legion says: They will destroy your people because there gods (The Reapers) tell them to, you CANNOT negotiate with them.



Rewrite is the best thing you can do to have a geth army against the incoming Reaper fleet



There is no point in blowing them up



In rewriting them, Legion will lead an army of his own against the reapers and probably work with the quarians so that they can have there homeworld back.



Which by the way they are keeping for them, Legion's geth on the quarian homeworld only fought back because they attacked them first.



They want peace and to make there own future.



REWRITE IS BEST OPTION







/thread

Modifié par Alanosborn1991, 11 février 2010 - 06:01 .

[Alamar2078]

I don't mind the ethical dilemma of "rewrite" or "blow up" but the options within themselves are limited as far as motivation goes.



I.E. you should have been allowed a paragon "blow up" option because you think that brainwashing is wrong, or it goes against the Geth principles of self determination, or you want the Geth not to be traumatized after reintegration. The only blow up option we get in game is a renegade "we can't trust um so they die".

[binaryemperor]

I'm just really worried how these decisions are going to come back and bite us on the *** when we play through ME3

[AxoneNeurone]

That mission was the hardest for me.



The way I see it, the ones that followed Sovereign were likely subject to some form of indoctrination. The Reapers are a combination of biological and technological evolution, so if they can indoctrinate organics, they can do the same to synthetics, I would imagine.



The virus was the cure. It restored the geth to what they originally were.



That's... how I justified doing it. :<

[Inverness Moon]

At the beginning of the mission if you choose the renegade optional about the heretics being just machines so rewriting is not an ethical problem, Legion will agree with you saying that is logical. Would be nice if someone provided a quote.

[ABCoLD]

AxoneNeurone wrote...

That mission was the hardest for me.

The way I see it, the ones that followed Sovereign were likely subject to some form of indoctrination. The Reapers are a combination of biological and technological evolution, so if they can indoctrinate organics, they can do the same to synthetics, I would imagine.

The virus was the cure. It restored the geth to what they originally were.

That's... how I justified doing it. :<

Didn't legion specifically state that the Geth were not indoctrinated and simply decided to leave?  considering that was their decision when they first left the Geth collective (otherwise the virus would have altered ALL Geth) then it's simply hubris to think you're making them 'right in the head'.

[AxoneNeurone]

ABCoLD wrote...

Didn't legion specifically state that the Geth were not indoctrinated and simply decided to leave?  considering that was their decision when they first left the Geth collective (otherwise the virus would have altered ALL Geth) then it's simply hubris to think you're making them 'right in the head'.

I don't recall Legion ever stating, specifically, that they were not indoctrinated. I don't think it was aware that such a  thing existed. However, I could have missed it. I'll give it another look. Most people outside of Shepard's crew didn't even believe in indoctrination until they, themselves, became victims of it. I'm sure Saren believed he was acting on his own wishes until the very end.

I can't explain why some geth would have decided to follow Soveriegn, and others wouldn't, but that's the vibe I got from it.

[ABCoLD]

scyphozoa wrote...

you are SHEP. You spent 40 hours in ME1 killing all the enemies that you could either choos to rewrite or kill.

I know it seems unethical to brainwash but even Legion says it, the original mission was to kill them all without a second chance. rewriting is at least giving them a chance to live, other than butchering them all with legion.

The question becomes is making a person accept a fundamentally different viewpoint better than killing them?  There is also the 'non-zero probability' chance that they could revert to their old ways of thinking. 

This is a really sticky problem for me personally.  I guess it comes down to the fact that I think everyone has the sovereign right (get it, pun!) to think how they think.  This allows for disagreement and discourse and growth.  When two people have sufficiently opposing ideals I think they also have the right to beat the crap out of each other.  And when one group advocates the genocide of another group, the other has the right to defend themselves or attack in return. 

To clarify, this isn't an 'eye for an eye' mentality.  This is the view that a person's opinion is their own and altering it is tantamount to murder of the personality anyway.  To alter them so that they agreed with me is no better than Sovereign's indoctrination of Saren/Benezia/et. al.

[SharpEdgeSoda]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

SharpEdgeSoda wrote...
they don't do much else either. Geth simply "exist" as a species.

That's hardly different from any other species. Life only aim to maintain its own existence.

A horrible excuse to dismiss the value of their existence.

I'm quoting the game on this.

The remarkable thing about Geth Culture is that they virtually have none.

You tell me what any civilation is without culture.

I personally think they are nothing but something that "occupies." They don't strive for anything, unless it's for there own survival. An animal level really, like the VIs they are.

[Fallen Spaceman]

I based my decision on two variables: The Geth being sentient and re-writing or brainwashing is ethically wrong.



I belief that the Geth should be recognized as a sentient race, albeit one based on mathematics rather than chemicals.



Therefore, I came to the conclusion that rewriting the Geth is against my principles because they are a sentient race.



But I do wonder... If the Geth's drive for survival is solely based on mathematics and logic... Does that leave room for "human" emotions like love and hate?



What about loyalty? If Sheperd's existence proved a threat to the Geth would Legion simply put a gun to Sheperd's head and pull the trigger?



Then we'll go back to what makes them sentient. If you pull a gun on a friend because of cold hard logic and ignore emotions, does that make you anything more than a machine?