90 réponses à ce sujet

[Jackal904]

g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/702504/Feedback----BioShock-2-Edition-With-A-Little-Mass-Effect-2.html

The video is an episode of the podcast called Feedback from G4TV.com. Although it is labeled as the Bioshock 2 edition they talk about Mass Effect 2 in the beginning and at the end. The important part I want everyone, especially developers at BioWare, to listen to is at the end when they discuss the morality system of ME2. They talk about how the morality system in ME2 is too cut and dry, and it leaves little to no room for neutrality or morality path switching. I completely agree with they're complaints, and if there was one major improvement to be made in ME3, I would want it to be a less obvious morality system that doesn't force you to strictly stay paragon or renegade in order to achieve important dialogue options later in the game.

What I would suggest is that they completely remove charm and intimidate dialogue options, and just present the player with a list of dialogue options that aren't listed in a manor that would make it obvious which is paragon and which is renegade. You could still have a paragon and renegade meter, but don't make it affect your dialogue options. It could affect other things.

In ME1 and ME2 the paragon dialogue optons are at the top, neutral in the middle, and renegade at the bottom. The dialogue options should be listed in a random order, and you should have to think about the choice you are making. Right now you just go with the top dialogue option if you're good, and the bottom dialogue option if you're bad. You don't even really think about what you are saying. You just know that you have to choose that top or bottom option because you are paragon or renegade.

Below is a quote from someone who made this post in the comments section of the video.

On the subject of Morality I think Abbie makes a very good point; placing the paragon and renegade choices in set locations stops a player from actually thinking about what they want to say and simply kneejerking one or the other. Unfortunately this seems to be a standard in conversation based RPGs with dialogue options always seeming to be structured so that the "nice" responses are on the top and they get more and more "evil" the lower on the list you get.

While it's not perfect, I think that Dragon Age is great for this as there isn't a morality system to tell you that you've made a "good" decision or an "evil" one, you've simply made a choice and the consequences are on your head. Obviously there are still clear "good" and "evil" options within the dialogue trees, but the lack of a morality bar means that players are making choices based on how their character is versus a need to get a certain morality level so they can get the goodies attached to it.

He very clearly states the issues with the current morality and dialogue system in Mass Effect, and he explains why Dragon Age's morality and dialogue system is much better.

Modifié par Jackal904, 11 février 2010 - 07:44 .

[Moldy Poptarts]

So you want to go back to regular rpg dialogue bs? This is exactly why i like the dialogue/morailty system in this game. Depending on the situation i go with gut instinct. Sometimes I take the high road, othertimes you just gotta shank a ****. Making these choices easily eaccessible makes it flow in a cinematic fashion. So, no.

[Inarai]

Neutral works. You don't get the effects of full one, or full the other, but you do get things from both. My character is balanced, with full Paragon, though.



Remove charm/intimidate? Foolish. Add them back as skills? Add more skill points? Good. Diplomacy and Intimidation are RPG staples.

[Aedan_Cousland]

Neutral characters are penalized in ME2 because they are unable to diffuse two confrontations between squadmates, whereas someone who plays as strictly paragon or strictly renegade can. This wasn't an issue in ME1 because in that game you actually assigned points into charm or intimidate as you levelled. IMO, that was a better system, since even characters that weren't 100% paragon or renegade could max out either their charm or intimidate skill, depending on which way they leaned.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 11 février 2010 - 03:59 .

[Jackal904]

Moldy Poptarts wrote...

So you want to go back to regular rpg dialogue bs? This is exactly why i like the dialogue/morailty system in this game. Depending on the situation i go with gut instinct. Sometimes I take the high road, othertimes you just gotta shank a ****. Making these choices easily eaccessible makes it flow in a cinematic fashion. So, no.

No, you cannot just go with your instinct. You have to either choose paragon for almost every situation or renegade for almost every situation or you miss out on a lot of very important dialoge options. Plus the dialogue options are always set as good is on top, neutral is in the middle, and bad is at the bottom. There is no thinking of "I wonder what would be the nice/bad thing to say?" It's all laid out for you very clearly, and too clearly.

Please watch the video, I think you might be misunderstanding me. I don't know what you mean by regular rpg dialogue bs. I just would prefer a list of dialogue options that aren't so obvious as to which of them is good,bad, or neutral. And I don't want to be forced to go paragon each time, or renegade each time, in order to not miss out on important dialogue options such as breaking up the fight between Jack and Miranda, or convincing the quarin judges to not exile Tali without showing them the evidence.

Inarai wrote...

Neutral works. You don't get the effects of full one, or full the other, but you do get things from both. My character is balanced, with full Paragon, though.

No neutral does not work. Try going 50/50 paragon/renegade and you'll see. You will miss out on a lot of important dialogue options.

Modifié par Jackal904, 11 février 2010 - 04:04 .

[wolfwarp]

I support randomize the "location" of the dialog options. Now, in order to achieve paragon or renegade, I just click onto the top or bottom option brainlessly.



But I do like the red and blue option of the dialog. Makes me feel that I make a difference in the conversation. I don't have solution on how to make this charm / intimidate works. The real time conversation interuption is a good feature in ME 2. I just wish that ME 3 will reward more free flow of dialog choices. Rather than brainless clicking. And also to reward those "neutral" preferred players.

[Jackal904]

wolfwarp wrote...

I support randomize the "location" of the dialog options. Now, in order to achieve paragon or renegade, I just click onto the top or bottom option brainlessly.

But I do like the red and blue option of the dialog. Makes me feel that I make a difference in the conversation. I don't have solution on how to make this charm / intimidate works. The real time conversation interuption is a good feature in ME 2. I just wish that ME 3 will reward more free flow of dialog choices. Rather than brainless clicking. And also to reward those "neutral" preferred players.

Exactly. This is exactly what the main problem is with Mass Effect's current morality and dialogue system. You don't even look to see what exactly you will say, you just pick the top or bottom based on if you are going renegade or paragon.

Modifié par Jackal904, 11 février 2010 - 04:06 .

[Inarai]

Jackal904 wrote...

Inarai wrote...

Neutral works. You don't get the effects of full one, or full the other, but you do get things from both. My character is balanced, with full Paragon, though.

No neutral does not work. Try going 50/50 paragon/renegade and you'll see. You will miss out on a lot of important dialogue options.

I did go neutral.  And didn't miss out on dialogue.  (Though, straight 50-50 is FORCED, not ORGANIC, neutrality, and is just as bad.)

Mind you, it helps that I imported, and leveled up my vanguard skill to Champion.

As far as choice positions go, I need to mention that I'd say it's important - because you don't KNOW what the choices really mean without context.

Modifié par Inarai, 11 février 2010 - 04:12 .

[Frotality]

i agree with OP implicitly. DAO took a major step forward letting us face the consequence of desicions directly and making moral choices actually... you know, not so obvious as choose up/blue for good and down/red for evil. ME2 went and tied its 2 sided black and white morality system into the available dialouge choices for our character; wich just makes me /facepalm as to why they didnt learn from the DAO team.

and of course there is nothing to be gained from playing at any shade of gray, because the only thing ever rewarded  is going for one extreme, which actually leads to THE SAME BONUS; persuasion choices; you would think diplomatic neutrality would make you more persuasive, but by the laws of naughty/nice point morality systems, no.

i am in full support of the DAO 'let us make our own damn morality like human beings do' system in ME3; consequence should be in what we say and do, have said and have done; not in naughty/nice points and the lifting of a non-sensical barrier on shepard's vocabulary.

[tmontana1093]

I agree with you. When I'm being a good guy, I always find myself just choosing the top option without even thinking about it. Change it up! Make dialogue more challenging! Also, get rid of charm/intimidate! We should be able to do this by choosing the correct dialogue option according to the NPC's personality. For example, if you're trying to get someone like Zaed to shut up and follow orders, you wouldn't be a **** about it - you'd have to choose the tougher, more demanding options to get his attention. Make us think Bioware, we're not babies!

[Ahglock]

I prefer a generic persuade skill, I think it opens up the most options. In the current system and when you have separate charm, intimidate skills you are effectively forced to go one path and one path alone. Persuade allows you to charm in one situation and intimidate in the next, whatever you think best fits your character. The current system penalizes you for not being a cookie cutter paragon or renegade, so you don't end up playing the way you want.

Also the interrupt system should have both paragon and renegade options for each interrupt, not this one is paragon, this one is renegade. People want to see the cool interrupt and they get somewhat forced along for the ride down a paragon or renegade path they did not want. I'd also like some class specific interrupts, but that is asking for a lot. But hey FF13 will be on multiple disks maybe they can do the same for ME3.

Edit to add: Just allowing all dialogue options without needing any skill or paragon/renegade points would probably be the best choice, but I don't see it happening in the ME franshise. 

Modifié par Ahglock, 11 février 2010 - 04:15 .

[kelsjet]

edit: removed
(forum autoformatting > me)

Modifié par kelsjet, 11 février 2010 - 04:22 .

[Jackal904]

[quote]Ahglock wrote...

I prefer a generic persuade skill, I think it opens up the most options. In the current system and when you have separate charm, intimidate skills you are effectively forced to go one path and one path alone. Persuade allows you to charm in one situation and intimidate in the next, whatever you think best fits your character. The current system penalizes you for not being a cookie cutter paragon or renegade, so you don't end up playing the way you want.

Also the interrupt system should have both paragon and renegade options for each interrupt, not this one is paragon, this one is renegade. People want to see the cool interrupt and they get somewhat forced along for the ride down a paragon or renegade path they did not want. I'd also like some class specific interrupts, but that is asking for a lot.[/quote]

That's a good idea. Just a general persuade skill. A less black and white interrupt system would also be very nice.

[quote]Edit to add: Just allowing all dialogue options without needing any skill or paragon/renegade points would probably be the best choice, but I don't see it happening in the ME franshise. 
[/quote]

Ya I agree, but instead of having 3 options an then 2 other options, one being charm and one being intimidate. They would complete remove charm and intimidate options, and just have a list of dialogue choices, and you have to choose what you think is best for the situation.

quote]Inarai wrote...

[quote]Jackal904 wrote...

[quote]Inarai wrote...

Neutral works. You don't get the effects of full one, or full the other, but you do get things from both. My character is balanced, with full Paragon, though.[/quote]

No neutral does not work. Try going 50/50 paragon/renegade and you'll see. You will miss out on a lot of important dialogue options.[/quote]

I did go neutral.  And didn't miss out on dialogue.  (Though, straight 50-50 is FORCED, not ORGANIC, neutrality, and is just as bad.)

Mind you, it helps that I imported, and leveled up my vanguard skill to Champion.

As far as choice positions go, I need to mention that I'd say it's important - because you don't KNOW what the choices really mean without context.[/quote]

I garauntee you missed out on dialogue options if you tried staying neutral. To break up the fight between Legion and Tali takes a very high paragon or renegade score. The are other dialogue options that take high paragon or renegade scores that require you to strictly stay on one path, renegade or paragon, in order to gain enough 'morality' points to obtain them.

I'm not sure what you mean about the choice positions. I'm saying they should list the dialogue options in a random order, making the player think about what's the best option considering the situation. Just like in Dragon Age: Origins.

Modifié par Jackal904, 11 février 2010 - 04:30 .

[Moldy Poptarts]

Jackal904 wrote...


No, you cannot just go with your instinct. You have to either choose paragon for almost every situation or renegade for almost every situation or you miss out on a lot of very important dialoge options. Plus the dialogue options are always set as good is on top, neutral is in the middle, and bad is at the bottom. There is no thinking of "I wonder what would be the nice/bad thing to say?" It's all laid out for you very clearly, and too clearly.

Inarai wrote...

Neutral works. You don't get the effects of full one, or full the other, but you do get things from both. My character is balanced, with full Paragon, though.

No neutral does not work. Try going 50/50 paragon/renegade and you'll see. You will miss out on a lot of important dialogue options.

Yea, you can go with gut instinct, my 95% paragon and 45% renegade scores say so, lmao. I imported and went champion but it is very possible to do as you please and not miss out. Jack/Miranda scenario is glitched.

[sinosleep]

Moldy Poptarts wrote...

Yea, you can go with gut instinct, my 95% paragon and 45% renegade scores say so, lmao. I imported and went champion but it is very possible to do as you please and not miss out. Jack/Miranda scenario is glitched.

This is the correct answer, and I didn't even go the champion path so I only had 75% bonus. At end game I had 5 bars renegade and 2 bars and change of paragon. I regularly had both paragon and renegade options available to me, I broke up the fight people are talking about just fine and dandy VERY early into the game as those were two of the earliest missions I did, and the ONLY option I missed out on was saying "I'm a spectre" during a certain scene on the citadel. You can play the middle ground just fine.

[Inarai]

The other thing to consider: These are different TYPES of morality presented, not good versus evil. Different ways of being the hero.

[Jackal904]

Moldy Poptarts wrote...

Jackal904 wrote...


No, you cannot just go with your instinct. You have to either choose paragon for almost every situation or renegade for almost every situation or you miss out on a lot of very important dialoge options. Plus the dialogue options are always set as good is on top, neutral is in the middle, and bad is at the bottom. There is no thinking of "I wonder what would be the nice/bad thing to say?" It's all laid out for you very clearly, and too clearly.

Inarai wrote...

Neutral works. You don't get the effects of full one, or full the other, but you do get things from both. My character is balanced, with full Paragon, though.

No neutral does not work. Try going 50/50 paragon/renegade and you'll see. You will miss out on a lot of important dialogue options.

Yea, you can go with gut instinct, my 95% paragon and 45% renegade scores say so, lmao. I imported and went champion but it is very possible to do as you please and not miss out. Jack/Miranda scenario is glitched.

No it's not glitched. I've been able to break up their fight with charm and intimidate. And everyone's gut instinct may not lead to them having such a high amount of either paragon or renegade like it did with you. Also choosing the neutral option does not usually reward you with either paragon or renegade points. So you definitely have to choose mostly renegade and paragon dialoge options, and not neutral because you gain no morality points from it.

sinosleep wrote...

Moldy Poptarts wrote...

Yea, you can go with gut instinct, my 95% paragon and 45% renegade scores say so, lmao. I imported and went champion but it is very possible to do as you please and not miss out. Jack/Miranda scenario is glitched.

This is the correct answer, and I didn't even go the champion path so I only had 75% bonus. At end game I had 5 bars renegade and 2 bars and change of paragon. I regularly had both paragon and renegade options available to me, I broke up the fight people are talking about just fine and dandy VERY early into the game as those were two of the earliest missions I did, and the ONLY option I missed out on was saying "I'm a spectre" during a certain scene on the citadel. You can play the middle ground just fine.

But regardless of whether or not you can go with your gut instinct, the fact that it's so obvious which choices are paragon, neutral, and renegade, makes dialogue choices too obvious. Most people's thoughts are "I am good, therefore I choose the top option without even looking at what it says."

Modifié par Jackal904, 11 février 2010 - 04:36 .

[mhendon]

I think about what I want to say. For example, even though it is renegade(and I'm paragon), I agreed with the genophage and said so. It's a personal problem if you don't take the time to think about what you are saying. Bioware simply put the dialogue in an order that let us know what points we would be receiving, as well as giving us a better idea of what was actually going to be said, instead of being sneaky by "Mixing it up." It's not a good and evil system it's just about the way you do things. Renegade's are NOT evil, I mean aren't they also saving the galaxy? My advice is to create your opinions and stick with them despite where they might end up on the dialogue wheel. It's not Bioware's intention for you to forgo your opinions to be their image of a paragon or renegade. However, neutrality is not considered in this game, and I would agree that this is a problem. You're still not going to miss out on dialogue, just some situations won't be ideal. Maybe the ME1 persuade system would be better where you can put points into charm or intimidate yourself no matter what dialogue options you've chosen. Maybe even a new type of persuade: Neutral.

[Inarai]

Jackal904 wrote...

Moldy Poptarts wrote...

Jackal904 wrote...


No, you cannot just go with your instinct. You have to either choose paragon for almost every situation or renegade for almost every situation or you miss out on a lot of very important dialoge options. Plus the dialogue options are always set as good is on top, neutral is in the middle, and bad is at the bottom. There is no thinking of "I wonder what would be the nice/bad thing to say?" It's all laid out for you very clearly, and too clearly.

Inarai wrote...

Neutral works. You don't get the effects of full one, or full the other, but you do get things from both. My character is balanced, with full Paragon, though.

No neutral does not work. Try going 50/50 paragon/renegade and you'll see. You will miss out on a lot of important dialogue options.

Yea, you can go with gut instinct, my 95% paragon and 45% renegade scores say so, lmao. I imported and went champion but it is very possible to do as you please and not miss out. Jack/Miranda scenario is glitched.

No it's not glitched. I've been able to break up their fight with charm and intimidate. And everyone's gut instinct may not lead to them having such a high amount of either paragon or renegade like it did with you. Also choosing the neutral option does not usually reward you with either paragon or renegade points. So you definitely have to choose mostly renegade and paragon dialoge options, and not neutral because you gain no morality points from it.

Maybe it won't net you points.  That's fine - it just means you experience a different story.

[Moldy Poptarts]

No, it is glitched, someone with max paragon couldnt break up the fight either.

[mhendon]

No its really not glitched. you need !00% either/or

[Jackal904]

Inarai wrote...

Jackal904 wrote...

Moldy Poptarts wrote...

Jackal904 wrote...


No, you cannot just go with your instinct. You have to either choose paragon for almost every situation or renegade for almost every situation or you miss out on a lot of very important dialoge options. Plus the dialogue options are always set as good is on top, neutral is in the middle, and bad is at the bottom. There is no thinking of "I wonder what would be the nice/bad thing to say?" It's all laid out for you very clearly, and too clearly.

Inarai wrote...

Neutral works. You don't get the effects of full one, or full the other, but you do get things from both. My character is balanced, with full Paragon, though.

No neutral does not work. Try going 50/50 paragon/renegade and you'll see. You will miss out on a lot of important dialogue options.

Yea, you can go with gut instinct, my 95% paragon and 45% renegade scores say so, lmao. I imported and went champion but it is very possible to do as you please and not miss out. Jack/Miranda scenario is glitched.

No it's not glitched. I've been able to break up their fight with charm and intimidate. And everyone's gut instinct may not lead to them having such a high amount of either paragon or renegade like it did with you. Also choosing the neutral option does not usually reward you with either paragon or renegade points. So you definitely have to choose mostly renegade and paragon dialoge options, and not neutral because you gain no morality points from it.

Maybe it won't net you points.  That's fine - it just means you experience a different story.

Ya you experience something different such as not having access to important dialogue options. So you are forced to choose either the renegade or paragon option.

[ForcedWits2]

I don't know about you guys, but I usually don't stick with just the paragon or renegade option the whole way through. I switch back and forth depending on the person I'm talking to, and what I think of them, and how the situation has played out up to that point.

Modifié par ForcedWits2, 11 février 2010 - 04:38 .

[sinosleep]

mhendon wrote...

No its really not glitched. you need !00% either/or

Um actually, NO you don't. I can fraps it if you really want me to. I play on the PC, that whole things seems to largely be a 360 issue.

Modifié par sinosleep, 11 février 2010 - 04:38 .

[Moldy Poptarts]

copypasta from another thread

I Redbush I wrote...

Ok thank you for having this as a topic. I played through as a Sentinel and aside from going through the Omega 4 Relay, all I had left was Jack's loyalty mission. When I finished I was completely maxed out as a Paragon. As a Sentinel I used the Guardian skill and helped increase my Paragon score. When Jack and Miranda had the fight, I was unable to use the Paragon option to settle it, so I took Miranda's side and went to talk to Jack. When I got to her, I was still unable to use the Paragon option. Any thoughts?

If that doesnt sound like a glitch, I dont know what is.

Modifié par Moldy Poptarts, 11 février 2010 - 04:40 .