90 réponses à ce sujet

[mhendon]

Moldy Poptarts wrote...

copypasta from another thread

I Redbush I wrote...

Ok thank you for having this as a topic. I played through as a Sentinel and aside from going through the Omega 4 Relay, all I had left was Jack's loyalty mission. When I finished I was completely maxed out as a Paragon. As a Sentinel I used the Guardian skill and helped increase my Paragon score. When Jack and Miranda had the fight, I was unable to use the Paragon option to settle it, so I took Miranda's side and went to talk to Jack. When I got to her, I was still unable to use the Paragon option. Any thoughts?

If that doesnt sound like a glitch, I dont know what is.

I concede.  I just never had that problem.  Thats really weird.

[Moldy Poptarts]

It does seem to be a 360 issue.

Also, my brother did the grunt loyalty mission and fortification did not unlock.

Modifié par Moldy Poptarts, 11 février 2010 - 04:44 .

[Ahglock]

sinosleep wrote...

mhendon wrote...

No its really not glitched. you need !00% either/or

Um actually, NO you don't. I can fraps it if you really want me to. I play on the PC, that whole things seems to largely be a 360 issue.

I play on PC and I need maxed or its glitched, I'm leaning towards glitched since some people with maxed have failed it.  So yes 100% sometimes fails.  Glitched by the way dooesn't mean everyones copy is glitched just that the error rate is above the standard error rate. 

[sinosleep]

My argument was that you don't need 100% at all. I think I was around 70% or some such on my renegade when that happened and I got the option to resolve it amicably.I agree that it's glitched, that was my point.

Modifié par sinosleep, 11 février 2010 - 04:46 .

[Inarai]

Jackal904 wrote...

Inarai wrote...

Jackal904 wrote...

Moldy Poptarts wrote...

Jackal904 wrote...


No, you cannot just go with your instinct. You have to either choose paragon for almost every situation or renegade for almost every situation or you miss out on a lot of very important dialoge options. Plus the dialogue options are always set as good is on top, neutral is in the middle, and bad is at the bottom. There is no thinking of "I wonder what would be the nice/bad thing to say?" It's all laid out for you very clearly, and too clearly.

Inarai wrote...

Neutral works. You don't get the effects of full one, or full the other, but you do get things from both. My character is balanced, with full Paragon, though.

No neutral does not work. Try going 50/50 paragon/renegade and you'll see. You will miss out on a lot of important dialogue options.

Yea, you can go with gut instinct, my 95% paragon and 45% renegade scores say so, lmao. I imported and went champion but it is very possible to do as you please and not miss out. Jack/Miranda scenario is glitched.

No it's not glitched. I've been able to break up their fight with charm and intimidate. And everyone's gut instinct may not lead to them having such a high amount of either paragon or renegade like it did with you. Also choosing the neutral option does not usually reward you with either paragon or renegade points. So you definitely have to choose mostly renegade and paragon dialoge options, and not neutral because you gain no morality points from it.

Maybe it won't net you points.  That's fine - it just means you experience a different story.

Ya you experience something different such as not having access to important dialogue options. So you are forced to choose either the renegade or paragon option.

To do what you want, maybe.  But that is the ramification of a different choice that you have already made.  Choices have consequences.  You've decided that you want to see Charm or Intimidate dialogue, this is how you get it.  If you decide you want to go neutral, the consequence is you might not always get at those options.

[The Black Ghost]

I agree about the dialogue wheel and where choices are located/which are "right" vs "wrong"


BUT, I think the paragon, renegade choices should remain, they should be options that are unlocked by paragon/renegade...but they shouldnt be in BLUE or RED.

I dont like the idea that you know the outcome of your options before you chooce it,. Like, "if i click this option, I know I will get paragon points" (thus, the player disregards the actual choice and goes with whatever it says for the option in the right place for renegade/paragon.


The paragon/renegade thing in this game is all messed up

Modifié par The Black Ghost, 11 février 2010 - 05:03 .

[Ahglock]

Inarai wrote...



To do what you want, maybe.  But that is the ramification of a different choice that you have already made.  Choices have consequences.  You've decided that you want to see Charm or Intimidate dialogue, this is how you get it.  If you decide you want to go neutral, the consequence is you might not always get at those options.

Bull, there isn't a choice consequence system because it only hoses one style of play.  It is a railroad into one of 2 paths system. 

The morality system sucks and has sucked for a while.  It is part of the ME franchise so I do not expect it to change, but other games are moving away from it as the novelty wears off and the suck becomes more obvious. 

[Ahglock]

sinosleep wrote...

My argument was that you don't need 100% at all. I think I was around 70% or some such on my renegade when that happened and I got the option to resolve it amicably.I agree that it's glitched, that was my point.

Sorry I phrased that poorly.  I should have broken up my responses to you and the person you quoted. 

[Ahglock]

The Black Ghost wrote...

I agree about the dialogue wheel and where choices are located/which are "right" vs "wrong"


BUT, I think the paragon, renegade choices should remain, they should be options that are unlocked by paragon/renegade...but they shouldnt be in BLUE or RED.

I dont like the idea that you know the outcome of your options before you chooce it,. Like, "if i click this option, I know I will get paragon points" (thus, the player disregards the actual choice and goes with whatever it says for the option in the right place for renegade/paragon.


The paragon/renegade thing in this game is all messed up

I don't like unblockable options for 2 reaosons 1 it forces a play style and 2 it stops you from changing the character due to events.  For the 2 my best example is KOTOR, when it is revealed how you were mind wipedI changed from light side to dark side, I saw the jedi as hypocritical ass hats and did not want anyhting to do with them.  I didn't go full douche but it shifted how I played.

  If I have 50 paragon out of a 100 and haven't really done anyhitng renegade but then a story even motivates me to go towards a more rengade path a LI gets killed or something in ME3 I don't want game mechanics motivating me away from that choice. 

Also I would rahter they keep the chocies color coded as long as the dialogue options are not spelled out.  The opening scene renegade option of that is an order came out way differently than I expected.  "That is an order" is not a particularly renegade(except it was lower on the wheel) choice especially for a commander on a military vessel, what you actually say is full of douche and you'd know it was renegade even if it was in the up position. 

[Dr.Nighshade]

 I can understand where the OP is coming from but I honestly don't have much of an issue with the Paragon/Renegade system.The only time where its been an issue is when I'm being seduced by Morinth.The point about the Jack and Miranda fight is,and I'm not very articulate so I may word this wrong,from my perspective I liked Jack and Miranda equally.Up until that point I had played the game jumping back and forth between Par./Ren. at my leisure and I was able to defuse that argument no problem.Several friends of mine hated one character or the other and actually picked a side despite having the option to use the persuasion abilities.

Given that it seems to me that if the issue is using the Par/Ren skills as a cop-out,simply pic a side.It my not be the picture perfect play through be it keeps the weight(I think this is the right term here) or drama of the choices meaningful.

Granted this my be my fanboyism showing.

 

Modifié par Dr.Nighshade, 11 février 2010 - 05:19 .

[Frotality]

Ahglock wrote...

Inarai wrote...



To do what you want, maybe.  But that is the ramification of a different choice that you have already made.  Choices have consequences.  You've decided that you want to see Charm or Intimidate dialogue, this is how you get it.  If you decide you want to go neutral, the consequence is you might not always get at those options.

Bull, there isn't a choice consequence system because it only hoses one style of play.  It is a railroad into one of 2 paths system. 

The morality system sucks and has sucked for a while.  It is part of the ME franchise so I do not expect it to change, but other games are moving away from it as the novelty wears off and the suck becomes more obvious. 

[Inarai]

Ahglock wrote...

Inarai wrote...



To do what you want, maybe.  But that is the ramification of a different choice that you have already made.  Choices have consequences.  You've decided that you want to see Charm or Intimidate dialogue, this is how you get it.  If you decide you want to go neutral, the consequence is you might not always get at those options.

Bull, there isn't a choice consequence system because it only hoses one style of play.  It is a railroad into one of 2 paths system. 

Not really.  You do have the choice to go without some of those dialogue options.

[Ahglock]

Dr.Nighshade wrote...

 I can understand where the OP is coming from but I honestly don't have much of an issue with the Paragon/Renegade system.The only time where its been an issue is when I'm being seduced by Morinth.The point about the Jack and Miranda fight is,and I'm not very articulate so I may word this wrong,from my perspective I liked Jack and Miranda equally.Up until that point I had played the game jumping back and forth between Par./Ren. at my leisure and I was able to defuse that argument no problem.Several friends of mine hated one character or the other and actually picked a side despite having the option to use the persuasion abilities.

Given that it seems to me that if the issue is using the Par/Ren skills as a cop-out,simply pic a side.It my not be the picture perfect play through be it keeps the weight(I think this is the right term here) or drama of the choices meaningful.

 

Well some of us are suffering through glitchy games that don't let us get out of that conversation well.  And even if I liked one character more than the other(I hate both of them) as a commander of a important mission I wont pick a side in a personal dispute, I would do everything to resolve it so both sides are satisfied.  Because that is my job as the leader.   Obviosuly if someone is clearly in the wrong and being an **** or disruptive to the team, I'd have to deal with them.  But 2 women in a glorified cat fight I am not picking a side on as a commander and a sane male.  But thanks to the suck ass morality system I am not given a rational option, I am forced to pick a side.  And since none of them are named Jenna I am not picking the side I want. 

[Ahglock]

Inarai wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

Inarai wrote...



To do what you want, maybe.  But that is the ramification of a different choice that you have already made.  Choices have consequences.  You've decided that you want to see Charm or Intimidate dialogue, this is how you get it.  If you decide you want to go neutral, the consequence is you might not always get at those options.

Bull, there isn't a choice consequence system because it only hoses one style of play.  It is a railroad into one of 2 paths system. 

Not really.  You do have the choice to go without some of those dialogue options.

Ah the famous with lube option. 

[Homebound]

Jackal904 wrote...

Moldy Poptarts wrote...

So you want to go back to regular rpg dialogue bs? This is exactly why i like the dialogue/morailty system in this game. Depending on the situation i go with gut instinct. Sometimes I take the high road, othertimes you just gotta shank a ****. Making these choices easily eaccessible makes it flow in a cinematic fashion. So, no.

No, you cannot just go with your instinct. You have to either choose paragon for almost every situation or renegade for almost every situation or you miss out on a lot of very important dialoge options. Plus the dialogue options are always set as good is on top, neutral is in the middle, and bad is at the bottom. There is no thinking of "I wonder what would be the nice/bad thing to say?" It's all laid out for you very clearly, and too clearly.

I disagree. Things get morally ambiguous during Tali's loyalty mission. Options at the bottom dont necesarrily give you renegade points.

Also anything besides a Yes to a Tali LI will give you renegade points when you talk to her.

Modifié par Just_mike, 11 février 2010 - 05:29 .

[Inarai]

Ahglock wrote...

Inarai wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

Inarai wrote...



To do what you want, maybe.  But that is the ramification of a different choice that you have already made.  Choices have consequences.  You've decided that you want to see Charm or Intimidate dialogue, this is how you get it.  If you decide you want to go neutral, the consequence is you might not always get at those options.

Bull, there isn't a choice consequence system because it only hoses one style of play.  It is a railroad into one of 2 paths system. 

Not really.  You do have the choice to go without some of those dialogue options.

Ah the famous with lube option. 

Heh.  You can't have a morality system of ANY bent, nor any satisfying RP element, without decisions blocking other options.

[tetracycloide]

Jackal904 wrote...
No neutral does not work. Try going 50/50 paragon/renegade and you'll see. You will miss out on a lot of important dialogue options.

Tested?  I have.  Often forced into whatever was easier.  Rarely unable to negotiate.  Twice at most.

[Jackal904]

Inarai wrote...

Jackal904 wrote...

Inarai wrote...

Jackal904 wrote...

Moldy Poptarts wrote...

Jackal904 wrote...


No, you cannot just go with your instinct. You have to either choose paragon for almost every situation or renegade for almost every situation or you miss out on a lot of very important dialoge options. Plus the dialogue options are always set as good is on top, neutral is in the middle, and bad is at the bottom. There is no thinking of "I wonder what would be the nice/bad thing to say?" It's all laid out for you very clearly, and too clearly.

Inarai wrote...

Neutral works. You don't get the effects of full one, or full the other, but you do get things from both. My character is balanced, with full Paragon, though.

No neutral does not work. Try going 50/50 paragon/renegade and you'll see. You will miss out on a lot of important dialogue options.

Yea, you can go with gut instinct, my 95% paragon and 45% renegade scores say so, lmao. I imported and went champion but it is very possible to do as you please and not miss out. Jack/Miranda scenario is glitched.

No it's not glitched. I've been able to break up their fight with charm and intimidate. And everyone's gut instinct may not lead to them having such a high amount of either paragon or renegade like it did with you. Also choosing the neutral option does not usually reward you with either paragon or renegade points. So you definitely have to choose mostly renegade and paragon dialoge options, and not neutral because you gain no morality points from it.

Maybe it won't net you points.  That's fine - it just means you experience a different story.

Ya you experience something different such as not having access to important dialogue options. So you are forced to choose either the renegade or paragon option.

To do what you want, maybe.  But that is the ramification of a different choice that you have already made.  Choices have consequences.  You've decided that you want to see Charm or Intimidate dialogue, this is how you get it.  If you decide you want to go neutral, the consequence is you might not always get at those options.

Ya and it shouldn't be that way. There should be a list of dialogue options that aren't categorized by whats paragon, neutral, and renegade. You have to either choose paragon or renegade. They might as well not even have a neutral option.
 
It was good in Dragon Age: Origins. They presented the player with a list of dialogue choices. The options weren't so blatantly obvious which were "paragon" and which were "renegade."

[Ahglock]

Inarai wrote...



Heh.  You can't have a morality system of ANY bent, nor any satisfying RP element, without decisions blocking other options.

I disagree entirely.  Any time options are blocked you are damaging any roleplaying element.  People are fickle and can make choices based on interpretation of single events, morality choice games don't allow that.  You are stuck with being a paragon or a renegade.

  And again the problem is even in this morality system the only choice that loses the option to make a power choice is the neutral player.  There should be a mixed choice a purple choice if you want that you only get access to if you have at least 30 in each bar or something.  Then you would have a point about choices and consequences.  In the current system only the neutral guy has a signifigant negative conesequence.  The paragon or renegade might not get the choice they want but they still get a power choice. 

All of which is irrelevant because the morality system sucks in the first place since all it does is limit options and reduce the abiloity to roleplay a realsitic character with any depth. 

[Jackal904]

Ahglock wrote...

Inarai wrote...



Heh.  You can't have a morality system of ANY bent, nor any satisfying RP element, without decisions blocking other options.

  And again the problem is even in this morality system the only choice that loses the option to make a power choice is the neutral player.  There should be a mixed choice a purple choice if you want that you only get access to if you have at least 30 in each bar or something.  Then you would have a point about choices and consequences.

I'd prefer that you didn't have to have a certain amount of any alignment. The ability to persuade someone should be independent of alignment. If that happens and if the morality of the dialogue choices aren't so obvious, only then will the dialogue and morality system be truely dynamic and unique to the players true personality.

[Jackal904]

Bump. I think this is really important. Currently the whole morality thing and dialogue options need to be changed so that they are less black and white. It needs to be more like DA:O, how you are presented with a list of dialogue options that aren't so obviously renegade, paragon, or neutral. Also how persuation is not based on how paragon or renegade you are, but just on your ability to persuade people.

[Inarai]

Jackal904 wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

Inarai wrote...



Heh.  You can't have a morality system of ANY bent, nor any satisfying RP element, without decisions blocking other options.

  And again the problem is even in this morality system the only choice that loses the option to make a power choice is the neutral player.  There should be a mixed choice a purple choice if you want that you only get access to if you have at least 30 in each bar or something.  Then you would have a point about choices and consequences.

I'd prefer that you didn't have to have a certain amount of any alignment. The ability to persuade someone should be independent of alignment. If that happens and if the morality of the dialogue choices aren't so obvious, only then will the dialogue and morality system be truely dynamic and unique to the players true personality.

It should be a skill again, yes.  But the alignment, which would also represent reputation, how you carry yourself, your character's thought patterns, etc would still have an impact, and this is an inevitable fact.

Besides, dialogue in this game isn't like Dragon Age.  There, you choose something to say.  Here, you choose something to think.  Frankly, it helps having the alignment reference just to get a better idea of what is going to be said.

[Jackal904]

In DA:O you know exactly what you are going to say, it tells you. DA:O's system is far better than ME's because you actually stop and look at the dialogue options. In ME it's just "oh I'm paragon so I'll choose the top dialoge option. I have no idea what it says I just know that it's the paragon option so I'll pick it." And it's this kind of behavior (which happens with a lot, if not most people) that makes the dialogue system not as interesting as DA:O's.

[yuncas]

Ahglock wrote...

I prefer a generic persuade skill, I think it opens up the most options. In the current system and when you have separate charm, intimidate skills you are effectively forced to go one path and one path alone. Persuade allows you to charm in one situation and intimidate in the next, whatever you think best fits your character. The current system penalizes you for not being a cookie cutter paragon or renegade, so you don't end up playing the way you want.

Also the interrupt system should have both paragon and renegade options for each interrupt, not this one is paragon, this one is renegade. People want to see the cool interrupt and they get somewhat forced along for the ride down a paragon or renegade path they did not want. I'd also like some class specific interrupts, but that is asking for a lot. But hey FF13 will be on multiple disks maybe they can do the same for ME3.

Edit to add: Just allowing all dialogue options without needing any skill or paragon/renegade points would probably be the best choice, but I don't see it happening in the ME franshise. 

I support the idea of a general persuade skill. Sometimes the options for conversations made no sense when they appeared. The choice of sticking to one path or the other eventually forces you more and more towards those kinds of responses, and it becomes harder to deviate from the direction you've moved in.

[AsheraII]

Moldy Poptarts wrote...

copypasta from another thread

I Redbush I wrote...

Ok
thank you for having this as a topic. I played through as a Sentinel
and aside from going through the Omega 4 Relay, all I had left was
Jack's loyalty mission. When I finished I was completely maxed out as a
Paragon. As a Sentinel I used the Guardian skill and helped increase my
Paragon score. When Jack and Miranda had the fight, I was unable to use
the Paragon option to settle it, so I took Miranda's side and went to
talk to Jack. When I got to her, I was still unable to use the Paragon
option. Any thoughts?

If that doesnt sound like a glitch, I dont know what is.

Exact same thing here, except that I sided with Jack instead. No Para/Rene option given during their catfight (greyed out). When I reached max Paragon later, the Paragon conversation option with Miranda to make up was still greyed out as well. On PC, retail version.

Inarai wrote...

Heh.  You can't have a morality system of ANY bent, nor any satisfying RP element, without decisions blocking other options.

The odd thing is, that the extreme paths both lead to the exact same spoils, while the neutral path is left behind. I could live with something Star Wars style, where each path has its own unique merrits. But they don't. The two are exactly alike. The political neutral approach however is left behind. Noticably, when you start wondering why a certain team member keeps dying during the suicide mission, even if you pick every group member perfectly.