90 réponses à ce sujet

[Jackal904]

AsheraII wrote...

Inarai wrote...

Heh.  You can't have a morality system of ANY bent, nor any satisfying RP element, without decisions blocking other options.

The odd thing is, that the extreme paths both lead to the exact same spoils, while the neutral path is left behind. I could live with something Star Wars style, where each path has its own unique merrits. But they don't. The two are exactly alike. The political neutral approach however is left behind. Noticably, when you start wondering why a certain team member keeps dying during the suicide mission, even if you pick every group member perfectly.

Exactly. I wish BioWare would make their dialogue and persuation system exactly like Dragon Age: Origins. In DA:O I actually look at my dialogue options and think about what to say instead of just, "oh I'm paragon therefore I'll pick the top dialogue choice."

[Jackal904]

Bump. BioWare, please make ME3's dialogue and persuation system like Dragon Age:Origins.

[Nautica773]

While I hate posting in threads that are shamelessly subjected to necromancy...



My hate for the alignment system is stronger. I would like to see the Paragon/Renegade system removed. With a series that focuses so much on player choice, to then reward players to play following an archetype created by the developers seems silly and counter productive.



While I understand they won't remove the system for ME3, I hope that there's greater consideration given to the exclusion of an alignment system in any game developed beyond this trilogy. Player choice should hinge on personal decisions based on the situations and there shouldn't be conversational rewards for just "auto-piloting" a certain type of character.

[TuringPoint]

^ Completely agreed with Nautica ^

I think Intimidate/Charm should've always been a separate skill from your Paragon/Renegade meter, completely.

I also agree that ME2 was worse about forcing you to stick pretty clearly to one path or the other. As far as I know, ME 1 was never praised for that weakness. They should reward neutral players somehow, if this is what they want to do.

Modifié par Alocormin, 11 février 2010 - 08:28 .

[Jackal904]

I'm usually very against bumping threads, but I think this topic is very important. I think they could still make the change to ME3. It's not like the game is getting released in a few months, there's still a ways to go. They just need to make the dialogue and persuation system more like DA:O's. They made DA:O so I don't see how it would be too much of an issue to implement the same system in ME3.

[Ahglock]

Jackal904 wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

Inarai wrote...



Heh.  You can't have a morality system of ANY bent, nor any satisfying RP element, without decisions blocking other options.

  And again the problem is even in this morality system the only choice that loses the option to make a power choice is the neutral player.  There should be a mixed choice a purple choice if you want that you only get access to if you have at least 30 in each bar or something.  Then you would have a point about choices and consequences.

I'd prefer that you didn't have to have a certain amount of any alignment. The ability to persuade someone should be independent of alignment. If that happens and if the morality of the dialogue choices aren't so obvious, only then will the dialogue and morality system be truely dynamic and unique to the players true personality.

As would I as I thought I covered in the next paragraph of the post you quoated.  But the ME franchise has this system, and I don't expect it to be removed for ME3, but at least it can be imrpoved. 

[Ahglock]

Inarai wrote...

Jackal904 wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

Inarai wrote...



Heh.  You can't have a morality system of ANY bent, nor any satisfying RP element, without decisions blocking other options.

  And again the problem is even in this morality system the only choice that loses the option to make a power choice is the neutral player.  There should be a mixed choice a purple choice if you want that you only get access to if you have at least 30 in each bar or something.  Then you would have a point about choices and consequences.

I'd prefer that you didn't have to have a certain amount of any alignment. The ability to persuade someone should be independent of alignment. If that happens and if the morality of the dialogue choices aren't so obvious, only then will the dialogue and morality system be truely dynamic and unique to the players true personality.

It should be a skill again, yes.  But the alignment, which would also represent reputation, how you carry yourself, your character's thought patterns, etc would still have an impact, and this is an inevitable fact.

Besides, dialogue in this game isn't like Dragon Age.  There, you choose something to say.  Here, you choose something to think.  Frankly, it helps having the alignment reference just to get a better idea of what is going to be said.

It being what you think as oposed to an actual dialogue option is a big problem in the ME system.  To use the first conversation in the gamne as an example.  MY choice was thought wise, "that is an order".  Okay the thought is fairly close to what I would say as a commander of a military vessle.  What do I say, "I'll drag his cripppled ass out of there, bla blah."  Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, that is about as far from what I would want to say as possible. 

[Jackal904]

Ya I wish it would show the actual line that you are going to say instead of a couple words that summarize what you are actually going to say. Because sometimes I pick a dialogue option that I think will say one thing but it says something completely different that I would not want to say. It's annoying how most paragon dialogue choices make you sound like a woos, and how most renegade dialogue choices make you look like a total ****.

[Siven80]

I have no problems with the Paragon/Renegade system as i generally pick the dialogue options dependant on my choice rather than being pure paragon or Renegade. I currently have a high Paragon meter and medium renegade meter and havent had any problems with missing any charm/intimidate checks.

Though i will say that Dragon Age's loyalty system is light years ahead of this old good/bad player alignment system ME and other games use.

I would like to see the DA system in ME3 but i dont think they'll change it now.

[dwwilson57]

Except Bioware has repeatedly noted the difference in the dialogue systems in the ME/DA franchises. One is not better than the other; one is different than the other, or you prefer one more than the other. The ability to auto-pilot a paragon character is part of the design, I would think. Mass Effect is far more cinematic than Dragon Age, and while the morality system is significantly more black and white, it's not 'evil' and 'good.'



The decision you have to make on Mordin's loyaliy quest, or at the end of the game, are tough, para/gade decisions regardless which alignment you choose, entirely becuase the good/evil dichotomy is undermined.



I like that it's easy for me to decide to be a dick to someone without having to read through long dialogue responses. I also like being able to read through long dialogue responses, but not in Mass Effect. I play by gut reaction, which I couldn't do in Dragon Age.



I will concede that sometimes the responses are not what I expected them to be, and this -- the cohesion between gut-reaction and spoken-response -- could be tightened for Mass Effect 3.

[Inarai]

Jackal904 wrote...

AsheraII wrote...

Inarai wrote...

Heh.  You can't have a morality system of ANY bent, nor any satisfying RP element, without decisions blocking other options.

The odd thing is, that the extreme paths both lead to the exact same spoils, while the neutral path is left behind. I could live with something Star Wars style, where each path has its own unique merrits. But they don't. The two are exactly alike. The political neutral approach however is left behind. Noticably, when you start wondering why a certain team member keeps dying during the suicide mission, even if you pick every group member perfectly.

Exactly. I wish BioWare would make their dialogue and persuation system exactly like Dragon Age: Origins. In DA:O I actually look at my dialogue options and think about what to say instead of just, "oh I'm paragon therefore I'll pick the top dialogue choice."

But DA:O's system lacks the cinematic effect that is central to Mass Effect.  Now, differentiating the paths more, and actually having a neutral path, would be good.  Having converstation skills again would be good.

[Jackal904]

Inarai wrote...

Jackal904 wrote...

AsheraII wrote...

Inarai wrote...

Heh.  You can't have a morality system of ANY bent, nor any satisfying RP element, without decisions blocking other options.

The odd thing is, that the extreme paths both lead to the exact same spoils, while the neutral path is left behind. I could live with something Star Wars style, where each path has its own unique merrits. But they don't. The two are exactly alike. The political neutral approach however is left behind. Noticably, when you start wondering why a certain team member keeps dying during the suicide mission, even if you pick every group member perfectly.

Exactly. I wish BioWare would make their dialogue and persuation system exactly like Dragon Age: Origins. In DA:O I actually look at my dialogue options and think about what to say instead of just, "oh I'm paragon therefore I'll pick the top dialogue choice."

But DA:O's system lacks the cinematic effect that is central to Mass Effect.  Now, differentiating the paths more, and actually having a neutral path, would be good.  Having converstation skills again would be good.

It has nothing to do with cinematic effect. I just want dialogue options to be listed on they are in DA:O. In DA:O the dialogue options are not so obviously good, bad, or neutral. And they show exactly what your character is going to say. In DA:O you actually look at your dialogue options and think about which to choose, unlike in Mass Effect where you mostly go straight to the top or bottom dialogue choice depending on if you're going the paragon or renegade route.

[Shatakai]

If you notice in the games, dialogue will usually appear during the person you are talking to's final sentence. However, most major decisions will wait til after they are done, change camera angles, and then show you your options.



I think that for ordinary dialogue, it should stay as is, since this allows for very cinematic conversations that make it feel more real and allow Bioware to match conversations to the music. However, big decisions that have only a paragon and renegade choice with no neutral option should be placed on the left and right randomly. Then, you really have to think about what to choose.



Also, I'd be in favor of Bioware completely dropping the number values of your morality. This allows them to handle issues mentioned in Feedback, such as abortion and gay marriage, because neither option would be dubbed "good" or "evil". I'm not sure how they would handle Charm and Intimidation, but I'm sure they could find a way.

[Inarai]

Jackal904 wrote...

Inarai wrote...

Jackal904 wrote...

AsheraII wrote...

Inarai wrote...

Heh.  You can't have a morality system of ANY bent, nor any satisfying RP element, without decisions blocking other options.

The odd thing is, that the extreme paths both lead to the exact same spoils, while the neutral path is left behind. I could live with something Star Wars style, where each path has its own unique merrits. But they don't. The two are exactly alike. The political neutral approach however is left behind. Noticably, when you start wondering why a certain team member keeps dying during the suicide mission, even if you pick every group member perfectly.

Exactly. I wish BioWare would make their dialogue and persuation system exactly like Dragon Age: Origins. In DA:O I actually look at my dialogue options and think about what to say instead of just, "oh I'm paragon therefore I'll pick the top dialogue choice."

But DA:O's system lacks the cinematic effect that is central to Mass Effect.  Now, differentiating the paths more, and actually having a neutral path, would be good.  Having converstation skills again would be good.

It has nothing to do with cinematic effect. I just want dialogue options to be listed on they are in DA:O. In DA:O the dialogue options are not so obviously good, bad, or neutral. And they show exactly what your character is going to say. In DA:O you actually look at your dialogue options and think about which to choose, unlike in Mass Effect where you mostly go straight to the top or bottom dialogue choice depending on if you're going the paragon or renegade route.

... I'm sorry, but you have no understanding of the difference here.  A dialogue option in ME isn't just a single line.  Shepard will say a whole lot of stuff, and directly converse, based on that thought.  Part of the reason the DA:O system can't work with that is, well, space on the screen.  And potring the DA:O system over would force the voice actors to stick to the script, verbatim - this is BAD.  Meaning that realistically, you won't see a DA:O style listing, and it wouldn't WORK for the kind of experience ME is designed to deliver.  These are different games designed to be different experiences.  Their dialogue systems are set up to service that experience, but they won't serve the experience in the other.  If you don't get this concept, you don't have much of a grasp on the concept of game design, which is central to this discussion.

As for the how Paragon top, Renegade bottom bit, it does help to make sure you understand what a thought is before you make Shep think it.

Shatakai:  If they went that route, it wouldn't REALLY be Mass Effect.  It's a great concept for a different game, sure, but ME3 is the capstone of a trilogy, a continuation of the series.  Stripping out the method for storytelling and completely replacing it might make that, and for that matter imports, rather difficult to accomplish.  Now, they COULD tackle those issues and just not assign any points for them, and just have logical consequences in what occurs, but...

Modifié par Inarai, 12 février 2010 - 01:23 .

[Kolaris8472]

As for the actual quote, I don't mind that the convo-wheel has obvious Paragon/Renegade choices, I'm familiar enough with my character to know which choices would be out-of-character.



I agree that beyond that there are some serious limitations brought about by the Morality system. For one, the game thinks your character is "weak" just because he isn't in ass/naive in all possible situations. There needs to be a separate method of raising Persuade as a skill, otherwise you run into occasions like...that one recruitable party member you need to resist, but the game thinks you are somehow "weak-willed" just because you aren't making arbitrary decisions.

[Inarai]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

As for the actual quote, I don't mind that the convo-wheel has obvious Paragon/Renegade choices, I'm familiar enough with my character to know which choices would be out-of-character.

I agree that beyond that there are some serious limitations brought about by the Morality system. For one, the game thinks your character is "weak" just because he isn't in ass/naive in all possible situations. There needs to be a separate method of raising Persuade as a skill, otherwise you run into occasions like...that one recruitable party member you need to resist, but the game thinks you are somehow "weak-willed" just because you aren't making arbitrary decisions.

Yes, much like you had it as a skill in ME1...  Actually, thinking about it, seperating skills and powers in ME3 would be a good system.

[Jackal904]

Well if they keep the dialogue system the same, they need to not base your persuation abilities on how much renegade and paragon points you have, that's all they really need to change. They should just make your persuation ability rank up with points into your passive ability, simple as that. Instead of just making you gain more paragon or renegade points, it would determine your ability to persuade people. Maxing it out grants you access to all charm/intimidate options. It's just that I feel my choices are dictated by the necessity of having a high paragon or renegade score. And because of that I don't choose dialogue options that reflect my actual personality. I just choose the paragon option everytime if I'm good, and the renegade option everytime if I'm bad.

[Inarai]

Jackal904 wrote...

Well if they keep the dialogue system the same, they need to not base your persuation abilities on how much renegade and paragon points you have, that's all they really need to change. They should just make your persuation ability rank up with points into your passive ability, simple as that. Instead of just making you gain more paragon or renegade points, it would determine your ability to persuade people. Maxing it out grants you access to all charm/intimidate options. It's just that I feel my choices are dictated by the necessity of having a high paragon or renegade score. And because of that I don't choose dialogue options that reflect my actual personality. I just choose the paragon option everytime if I'm good, and the renegade option everytime if I'm bad.

Return to the structure from the first game.  You may place points, or you might get points from going paragon/renegade.  Make Charm/Intimidate open up more distinct paths.

But it makes SENSE that your alignment has an impact, as that's going to represent habits, thought patterns, reputation, how you carry yourself...

[Jackal904]

Ya it does make sense, but in video games things that make sense aren't always the best. I agree that if anything they should at least go back to how it was in ME1 how you could spend points into your persuation abilities. That way I can choose whatever dialogue option I want and not worry about missing out on an important charm or intimidate option.

[RighteousRage]

My main problem with the morality system is not that paragon/renegade choices are in set locations, but that the paragon responses are so much more sensible than the renegade options that there's hardly an incentive to do the renegade ones except for sociopathic pleasure/a quick laugh. If you jam down the renegade options for everything then you WILL come out worse than a paragon character, which is funny considering how much emphasis Bioware tries to put into making "Jack Bauer decisions" and pretending there's some time limit on the game.

[Valtonis]

In ME, Paragon/Renegade does not mean Good/Evil.



when the choices come up it is not a matter of whether it is a good deed or and evil deed but whether it is a peaceful choice or a more violent one.



deciding between paragon or renegade is not like in DAO where it is a decision of whether something is good or evil but more of whether you believe the end justify the means.



for example, dropping the nuke on Hiroshima.

Paragon option is No,

Renegade option is Yes.



is the renegade option evil?

No. in fact it can even be construed as good because of the lives it would save in the longer run.

[Inarai]

Jackal904 wrote...

Ya it does make sense, but in video games things that make sense aren't always the best. I agree that if anything they should at least go back to how it was in ME1 how you could spend points into your persuation abilities. That way I can choose whatever dialogue option I want and not worry about missing out on an important charm or intimidate option.

Agreed.  But, sense and logic of gameplay is important to have where possible - strictly because of the massive aggravating effect not doing so has on some players', most notably RPG players'(As for whether or not ME2 should be considered such, I actually have something rather...  long that I intend to write relevant to the subject.), sensibilities.  So, these elements should be preserved whenever possible.

And differentiation of paths would be a very good thing.  I hope to see more impact from previous choices carrying into ME3, which would have implications on that note.

[nicodeemus327]

I didn't find it hard to choose what I thought was right (ie how I felt). The only thing I couldn't do was defuse the jack and miranda situation with the paragon option. In fact doing that actually opened up more dialogs then going strictly one way or another.

Modifié par nicodeemus327, 12 février 2010 - 07:33 .

[Toastysoul]

Jackal904 wrote...

No, you cannot just go with your instinct. You have to either choose paragon for almost every situation or renegade for almost every situation or you miss out on a lot of very important dialoge options. Plus the dialogue options are always set as good is on top, neutral is in the middle, and bad is at the bottom. There is no thinking of "I wonder what would be the nice/bad thing to say?" It's all laid out for you very clearly, and too clearly.

I disagree with you. The dialog wheel summaries that you base your descisions on are not always accurate enough to allow you to make an informed choice as to what to say next. Without some structure to help you discern your characters intentions, the 2-3 words that summarize your potential course of action is not enough to make randomizing the dialog worth it. If you could hove over a choice and have the full content of your response appear as text or something, maybe.

TBH, this system isn't really broken. It needs some polish, but not an overhaul. You seem to think that they simply forgot to include an option for a neutral character to resolve those 2 situations (I know which ones you are talking about). I don't think they did. You want to play a neutral character? Those are the consequenses. You can't ride the fence with your dialog all the time and still have 2 polar opposite characters like you. That's part of the "I'm not getting into it" mentality. Often, both end up hating your for it. Certainly you can't be complaining about how the situation resolves itself if you don't want to get involved enough in the first place. You choose one or choose neither. If you want to solve the sitation better, practice your diplomacy/intimidation skills. You want to have your cake and eat it too. I'm sorry, but it doesn't work that way.

I liked ME1 system for leveling Charm/Intimidation, but I also liked ME2 system as well. It's not better or worse in my mind, just different.

[Toastysoul]

Also, I'd be in favor of Bioware completely dropping the number values of your morality. This allows them to handle issues mentioned in Feedback, such as abortion and gay marriage, because neither option would be dubbed "good" or "evil".

Because FemShepard may accidentally knock up Liara/Samara and they decide to either get married or not to have the kid? That is a rediculous concept to add into this game. It's not sunday school or a PSA. Moralilty choice in the game need only involve real plot points and NPC character development within the scope of that plot. Anyone looking to for that kind of content is looking at the wrong game.