77 réponses à ce sujet

[Speakeasy13]

FVK209 wrote...

I remember the anti-human treatment of the council (and council races) in ME1. That's why a had them killed and that's why I supported Cerberus fully ME2. I don't believe that any alien would lend a hand if earth got attacked. Why don't the Turians, Asari or Salarians give any of the other species any kind of reasonable power or say? because they're the most powerful races and they love their powerful positions.

I read Revelation, the council has always been biased towards their own species. They didn't care about Eden prime. Humanity has to look out for itself.

What anti-human treatment are you talking about? They brought humanity into citadel space, introduced humanity to mass effect technology, and basically elavated humanity's technology for hundreds of years. If the council races didn't "look out" for humanity, we will still be confined to a depleted planet known as Earth.

The Council may represent, but does not equal Asari, Turian and Salarian as a whole. Besides, are the human council members sans Anderson any better? I doubt that. Therefore what you're suggesting is a pure bullying logic.

In fact the majority of the council space would probably agree that the council races deserved to be favored over. They, after, contributed more than humanity ever did to the Citadel Space.

[marshalleck]

Speakeasy13 wrote...

What anti-human treatment are you talking about? They brought humanity into citadel space, introduced humanity to mass effect technology, and basically elavated humanity's technology for hundreds of years. If the council races didn't "look out" for humanity, we will still be confined to a depleted planet known as Earth.

No they absolutely did not.

I think you need to go back and play the game, and actually read all the text and listen to the dialogue this time.

Modifié par marshalleck, 11 février 2010 - 05:55 .

[JamieCOTC]

marshalleck wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

mjwoltsknar wrote...

plus they are one of your main enemies in mass effect 1.

Hardly. They're in a few side quests that have no bearing on the main story.

They still were a reoccuring enemy, not your main enemy but a nemesis nonetheless.

Yeah, but they have absolutely no effect on the story at all. You can go through the entire game not touching anything related to Cerberus and nothing is different as a result.

When Jacob first tells you about Cerberus, there is an option "Never heard of them."  So, while they don't have any effect on ME1, it pays to play the Cerberus missions to get the full impact of ME2. 

[marshalleck]

JamieCOTC wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

mjwoltsknar wrote...

plus they are one of your main enemies in mass effect 1.

Hardly. They're in a few side quests that have no bearing on the main story.

They still were a reoccuring enemy, not your main enemy but a nemesis nonetheless.

Yeah, but they have absolutely no effect on the story at all. You can go through the entire game not touching anything related to Cerberus and nothing is different as a result.

When Jacob first tells you about Cerberus, there is an option "Never heard of them."  So, while they don't have any effect on ME1, it pays to play the Cerberus missions to get the full impact of ME2. 

So what? That doesn't make them a main enemy or even relevant to the plot of the first game at all.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

He's partially right, they did bring humanity into the Citadel Space, before we were unaware of other species in the galaxy and we would have wound up in a war w/ the Turian (who would have whipped our asses) and we would be far worse off then today.



But they didn't introduce us to Mass Effect technology, we found that thanks to the Mars ruins and that elevated our technology, though interacting with other species certainly did also help with elevating our technology.



Either way, being part of the Council space was a benefit to us humans.

[Speakeasy13]

marshalleck wrote...

Speakeasy13 wrote...

What anti-human treatment are you talking about? They brought humanity into citadel space, introduced humanity to mass effect technology, and basically elavated humanity's technology for hundreds of years. If the council races didn't "look out" for humanity, we will still be confined to a depleted planet known as Earth.

No they absolutely did not.

I think you need to go back and play the game, and actually read all the text and listen to the dialogue this time.

I'm well-aware of the First Contact War, which wouldn't have happened if the humans didn't take the liberty of expanding into unknown space and utilizing unknown technology without respect.

Oh and just who trained the 1st first human biotics? Who co-desgined the most advanced vessel in the alliance fleet? Who nominated Shepard as a SPECTRE? Who kept an eye closed when we invaded Bhatarian space? If the council were anti-human none of this would've happened.

Modifié par Speakeasy13, 11 février 2010 - 06:01 .

[JamieCOTC]

Also, if you play Sole Survivor, Cerberus is directly responsible for ****ing your life up pretty badly. I think SS is part of the default Shep, but not sure. I chose Colonist/Survivor. She's really ****ed up or should be.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Yeah, Cerebrus is related to one of the Shepard psych profiles.

[Volourn]

Cerberus is evil. Its' really that simple. They murder poeople - including humans - by the masses. Perhaps, at one time, Cerberus started as an organization with good intentions but it's gone beyond that.

That's why TIM wants you to keep the Collector base. Chances are he'd use it to finish off/recreate a human reaper. And, how will he do that? By murdering millions of humans. Or just as bad, he'll be making an 'alien' reaper by murdeirng millions of x species. The guy is a sicko. It's that simple.

It says a lot that a 'loyal' employee like Miranda literally dumps him on his face. She finally wakes up and sees the truth. That's awesome.

P.S. Obviously individual Cebrerus operatives are not neccessarily evil as evidence by basically the entire Normandy crew; but plenty are including TIM - just look how he continually tries to manipulates you and tries to ensalve you by going to the old well of 'i brought you back so do what i say' crap.

That's like a doctor who saves my life then tells me I must then murder people to pay him back. Disgusting.

I'll be honestly, I was shocked that the new Normandy AI didn't 'betray' us udner TIM's orders. Interetsing...

Modifié par Volourn, 11 février 2010 - 06:05 .

[Empiro]

Off the top of my head:

-Purposefully led 50+ Alliance soldiers on Akuze to their deaths, captured and tortured a survivor. As a sole survivor Shepard, I was really, really, disappointed that I wasn't able to call the Illusive Man out on that.

-Irresponsible experimentation with Thorians and Rachni, leading to the deaths of many civilians and military personnel alike.

-Killed Admiral Khoaku for uncovering their foul deeds.

-Tortured and killed kids including Subject Zero. Yes, I know the facility went rogue. However, setting up an already morally questionable facility (buying up children), giving the administrator the impossible and overly broad goal of creating the most powerful biotic ever, all with little oversight just leads to people taking it too far. It's just irresponsible, even if the Illusive Man didn't have a direct hand in it.

-It's also highly implied that they've caused several Element Zero disasters in order to increase the number of children with Biotic potential. Remember that most of the exposed babies are born with horrible birth defects.

-Assassinating people who's politics they do not agree with. The leader of the Terra Firma party (whom you meet in ME1) was put there by Cerberus after they assassinated his political opponent.

-Unprovoked assault on Quarian Migrant fleet in order to kidnap a 12 year old autisic child. They killed dozens of Quarians, and almost destroyed one of their ships. This is why the Quarians hate you in ME2.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be people who look out for humanity's interests. But even if humanity is at the forefront of galactic civilization, I certainly don't want it to be run by the people behind Cerberus.

Modifié par Empiro, 11 février 2010 - 06:04 .

[marshalleck]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

He's partially right, they did bring humanity into the Citadel Space, before we were unaware of other species in the galaxy and we would have wound up in a war w/ the Turian (who would have whipped our asses) and we would be far worse off then today.

But they didn't introduce us to Mass Effect technology, we found that thanks to the Mars ruins and that elevated our technology, though interacting with other species certainly did also help with elevating our technology.

Either way, being part of the Council space was a benefit to us humans.

We found our own way into Citadel space. We already had mass effect technology, and we already had colonies outside of our own solar system and our own military fleet.

The reason the Council interjected in the First Contact War is because while the turians may have ultimately prevailed, the war would have rendered huge swathes of the galaxy uninhabitable. It would have been a conflict which nobody would benefit from.

Even economically humanity has always been strong relative to its size.

[FVK209]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

FVK209 wrote...

I remember the anti-human treatment of the council (and council races) in ME1. That's why a had them killed and that's why I supported Cerberus fully ME2.

So because you experienced racism you support racism?

Well isn't that a wonderful cycle.

I don't believe that any alien would lend a hand if earth got attacked.

Why don't the Turians, Asari or Salarians give any of the other species any kind of reasonable power or say?

   It's called reciprocity.   What if the reapers began attacking human colonies first?  you really think there would be some galactic unity to stop the Reapers?    They would destroy their mass relays before helping us dude.  Batarian terrorists were going to drop an entire asteriod on a human planet. Was the citidel force running to save human lifes? They couldn't care less.

         The only species in the galaxy that has humanity's collective back is the krogan, and that's because the council views humans and krogans as the biggest viable threat to their power. They don't believe in the reapers.

Modifié par FVK209, 11 février 2010 - 06:06 .

[Speakeasy13]

marshalleck wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

He's partially right, they did bring humanity into the Citadel Space, before we were unaware of other species in the galaxy and we would have wound up in a war w/ the Turian (who would have whipped our asses) and we would be far worse off then today.

But they didn't introduce us to Mass Effect technology, we found that thanks to the Mars ruins and that elevated our technology, though interacting with other species certainly did also help with elevating our technology.

Either way, being part of the Council space was a benefit to us humans.

We found our own way into Citadel space. We already had mass effect technology, and we already had colonies outside of our own solar system and our own military fleet.

The reason the Council interjected in the First Contact War is because while the turians may have ultimately prevailed, the war would have rendered huge swathes of the galaxy uninhabitable. It would have been a conflict which nobody would benefit from.

Even economically humanity has always been strong relative to its size.

Thanks to our ruthless expansion tactics, often at the cost of other species. There's a reason why we're seen as a bully by others. Relative to our size we also take alot more from the world, often more than we probably deserve.

May I also point out that out of all 4 council races, we're the only one whose home world is so degraded it's almost inhabitable. Social commentary much?

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

marshalleck wrote...
We found our own way into Citadel space. We already had mass effect technology, and we already had colonies outside of our own solar system and our own military fleet.

If you could call it a "fleet". I'm sure our military fleet (which wasn't even designed for war by then) was nothing compared to the Turians. 

We're Korea and the Turians are the USA.

The reason the Council interjected in the First Contact War is because while the turians may have ultimately prevailed, the war would have rendered huge swathes of the galaxy uninhabitable. It would have been a conflict which nobody would benefit from.

Perhaps, but also the Council doesn't seem keen on "hey lets just wipe out any new species we run into", they also were interested in us due to how we surprised the Turians in Shanxi.

Even economically humanity has always been strong relative to its size.

We didn't even have an Alliance back then I believe... not too sure. Doubt our economy could complete with that of a galactic government. This is a pretty moot argument. They had far more resources and money then lonely ol' Earth did and the colonies certainly couldn't provide much for the military by then.

[marshalleck]

Speakeasy13 wrote...

Thanks to our ruthless expansion tactics, often at the cost of other species. There's a reason why we're seen as a bully by others. Relative to our size we also take alot more from the world, often more than we probably deserve.

May I also point out that out of all 4 council races, we're the only one whose home world is so degraded it's almost inhabitable. Social commentary much?

Deserve? Who decides what humanity deserves? Humanity deserves anything it can claim as its own and defend. Yes, that's not the politically correct answer, but it's what ultimately drives all political processes in the galaxy.

Regarding the environmental damage on Earth, I'd point out that humanity hasn't had access to "clean" Prothean (Reaper) tech for nearly as long as the other races have. If you want to cite codex entries, you need to acknowledge them completely. The environmental damage on Earth is being reduced as time passes.

[Kileyan]

Speakeasy13 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

He's partially right, they did bring humanity into the Citadel Space, before we were unaware of other species in the galaxy and we would have wound up in a war w/ the Turian (who would have whipped our asses) and we would be far worse off then today.

But they didn't introduce us to Mass Effect technology, we found that thanks to the Mars ruins and that elevated our technology, though interacting with other species certainly did also help with elevating our technology.

Either way, being part of the Council space was a benefit to us humans.

We found our own way into Citadel space. We already had mass effect technology, and we already had colonies outside of our own solar system and our own military fleet.

The reason the Council interjected in the First Contact War is because while the turians may have ultimately prevailed, the war would have rendered huge swathes of the galaxy uninhabitable. It would have been a conflict which nobody would benefit from.

Even economically humanity has always been strong relative to its size.

Thanks to our ruthless expansion tactics, often at the cost of other species. There's a reason why we're seen as a bully by others. Relative to our size we also take alot more from the world, often more than we probably deserve.

May I also point out that out of all 4 council races, we're the only one whose home world is so degraded it's almost inhabitable. Social commentary much?

self loathing is so passe. I had to hear this crap from my professor a long time ago.

Times change, enjoy living and do something, dont cry about what those from your race did in the past.

[Speakeasy13]

FVK209 wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

FVK209 wrote...

I remember the anti-human treatment of the council (and council races) in ME1. That's why a had them killed and that's why I supported Cerberus fully ME2.

So because you experienced racism you support racism?

Well isn't that a wonderful cycle.

I don't believe that any alien would lend a hand if earth got attacked.

Why don't the Turians, Asari or Salarians give any of the other species any kind of reasonable power or say?

   It's called reciprocity.   What if the reapers began attacking human colonies first?  you really think there would be some galactic unity to stop the Reapers?    They would destroy their mass relays before helping us dude.  Batarian terrorists were going to drop an entire asteriod on a human planet. Was the citidel force running to save human lifes? They couldn't care less.

         The only species in the galaxy that has humanity's collective back is the krogan, and that's because the council views humans and krogans as the biggest viable threat to their power. They don't believe in the reapers.

I don't think the Krogan cares enough about aliens in general to aid ANYONE, human or otherwise.

Also, if the Council had interfered when the humans invaded Bahtarian space. There'd never be the whole Bring Down the Sky story. Because technically we did started the conflict when we decided to cross into salvage territory.

[The Governator]

Canned Bullets wrote...

So people hate them because they hate aliens and they do questionable experiments on people.

That's not enough?<_<

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

FVK209 wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

FVK209 wrote...

I remember the anti-human treatment of the council (and council races) in ME1. That's why a had them killed and that's why I supported Cerberus fully ME2.

So because you experienced racism you support racism?

Well isn't that a wonderful cycle.

I don't believe that any alien would lend a hand if earth got attacked.

Why don't the Turians, Asari or Salarians give any of the other species any kind of reasonable power or say?

   It's called reciprocity.   What if the reapers began attacking human colonies first?  you really think there would be some galactic unity to stop the Reapers?    They would destroy their mass relays before helping us dude.  Batarian terrorists were going to drop an entire asteriod on a human planet. Was the citidel force running to save human lifes? They couldn't care less.

         The only species in the galaxy that has humanity's collective back is the krogan, and that's because the council views humans and krogans as the biggest viable threat to their power. They don't believe in the reapers.

I still have yet to see any argument for why we should do what we knew was wrong to other races, racism isn't a solution. It is just repeating the same problem until the balance is overthrown again.

I see arguments for the flaws of the Council, none for why we humans should try to take over everything when we're obviously aren't even going to "fix" the problems but rather just keep human interests only and ignore all of the other races needs. You're just advocating doing to the other racesl what the Council has been doing to us.

[marshalleck]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

Even economically humanity has always been strong relative to its size.

We didn't even have an Alliance back then I believe... not too sure. Doubt our economy could complete with that of a galactic government. This is a pretty moot argument. They had far more resources and money then lonely ol' Earth did and the colonies certainly couldn't provide much for the military by then.

Key words: relative to its size.

Gross product of Earth and her colonies is smaller than the asari, sure. But they've been around the galaxy for some 2500 years. Productivity-wise, humans are very competitive and will probably eclipse the asari eventually.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

marshalleck wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

Even economically humanity has always been strong relative to its size.

We didn't even have an Alliance back then I believe... not too sure. Doubt our economy could complete with that of a galactic government. This is a pretty moot argument. They had far more resources and money then lonely ol' Earth did and the colonies certainly couldn't provide much for the military by then.

Key words: relative to its size.

Gross product of Earth and her colonies is smaller than the asari, sure. But they've been around the galaxy for some 2500 years. Productivity-wise, humans are very competitive and will probably eclipse the asari eventually.

Eventually, but we're talking about if the Council didn't invite us and we went to war w/ the Turians. Arguments about the economy are moot, even "relatively". We'd go bankrupt, millions of humans would die, the Turians will have won, Earth may have been invaded, and trust me things would have been far worse for us by now then what it is like in the present day (ME2 date).

Sure we're not getting everything we'd like, the Council ignore Shepard's warnings about the Reapers, there are things wrong. There is ALWAYS going to be something wrong, that is politics and that is how it goes. 

Doesn't justify willingly wanting human dominion unless you're racist or simply don't care about any of the other races.

Modifié par Mikazukinoyaiba2, 11 février 2010 - 06:18 .

[marshalleck]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

Even economically humanity has always been strong relative to its size.

We didn't even have an Alliance back then I believe... not too sure. Doubt our economy could complete with that of a galactic government. This is a pretty moot argument. They had far more resources and money then lonely ol' Earth did and the colonies certainly couldn't provide much for the military by then.

Key words: relative to its size.

Gross product of Earth and her colonies is smaller than the asari, sure. But they've been around the galaxy for some 2500 years. Productivity-wise, humans are very competitive and will probably eclipse the asari eventually.

Eventually, but we're talking about if the Council didn't invite us and we went to war w/ the Turians. Arguments about the economy are moot, even "relatively". We'd go bankrupt, millions of humans would die, the Turians will have won, Earth may have been invaded, and trust me things would have been far worse for us by now then what it is like in the present day (ME2 date).

What good would that have served if it resulted in the decimation of the turian forces, the primary peace-keeping force of the Citadel? 

In the first book the Council is very clearly afraid of pressing humanity too hard. Ambassador Goyle calls their bluff when they are trying to press sanctions against humanity, and the Council balks because they know going to war against humanity is a losing proposition for everyone.

Edit: how did we get on this? This has nothing to do with Cerberus.

Modifié par marshalleck, 11 février 2010 - 06:21 .

[FVK209]

in the end, 100s of thousands of innocent human colonialist were being raped by the collectors and nobody in the council did jack shyt about it. They didn't even atleast send SPECTREs or salarian spies. Not even the alliance lifted a hand to save those people.



In the end Cerberus did more for those colonists than some stupid bleeding heart ideology ever did. With the power of the collectors and a mastering of Reaper technology (must be an objective of Cerberus), human beings will be safe from all galactic threats. Cerberus has the balls to take on the reapers and indirectly save everyone. They didn't put their heads in the sand like the council or the alliance.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

I doubt the Turian forces would have been completely decimated, but I haven't read any of the books yet. So I have to yield for now.

[StowyMcStowstow]

Canned Bullets wrote...

Never played ME1 so I don't know why Cerberus is bad, they sound like they have honest intentions.

To The Illusive Man, the ends justify the means. With the ends being human dominance and supremacy in the galaxy and the means being everything from blowing up innocent people to, well, pretty much anything. In the first game you encountered some of Cerberus' more extremist actions, and they were pretty much a terrorist organization.