77 réponses à ce sujet

[Abirn]

[quote]Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

[quote]FVK209 wrote...

I remember the anti-human treatment of the council (and council races) in ME1. That's why a had them killed and that's why I supported Cerberus fully ME2.[/quote]So because you experienced racism you support racism?

Well isn't that a wonderful cycle.[quote] I don't believe that any alien would lend a hand if earth got attacked.[/quote]
Why don't the Turians, Asari or Salarians give any of the other species any kind of reasonable power or say? because they're the most powerful races and they love their powerful positions.[/quote]
That's politics... the US, European Nations, and China look out for themselves the most and push the other smaller nations around all of the time. Humans are already being given a lot more respect than the other races, we're also the ones that were colonizing near the Terminus systems against the advice for the Council. If you don't do what mommy and daddy says, you can't come running back demanding they do something because you got burned while playing with the stove top. 

Humans have to show their strength and determination, that was the way we would have shown our worth to the galactic community and continue to grow. We're just too inpatient and arrogant to see that.
[/quote]

Your statment of "that's politics" implies that its acceptable.  Sorry but power for the sake of having power means that you should be removed from power.  

That said,   when you are facing mass extinction then rules and morals get thrown out the window.  You do what you have to do to survive.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

How is Cerebrus a terrorist organization again? They do bad things but their aim doesn't seem to obtain political change by influencing the public opinion through fear.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Abirn wrote...
That said,   when you are facing mass extinction then rules and morals get thrown out the window.  You do what you have to do to survive.

Cerberus isn't doing what it is doing for survival (outside of trying to stop the Collector's and Reapers) it's goal is Human Dominance.

I understand and support Shepard working with them (Paragon or Renegade) because they are the only means to an end, stopping the Collector's. Supporting Cerberus fully and their ideals?

That isn't fighting for survival anymore.

[Empiro]

It's unknown how strong the Turians are during the First Contact War. I think the bigger point is that since the Turians are the primary peace-keeping forces, they can't devote their entire fleet and fight a total war against the Alliance. Earth on the other hand, would be throwing everything they've got since they're fighting for survival. The council probably also realized that having a valuable trading partner is far better than fighting a war for no real gain.

Nonetheless, the fact remains that Cerberus is a vile, vile organization. Just because the council has their head stuck in the sand (or other places if you prefer) doesn't mean that it's not possible for a morally upright organization to realize the Collector threat, and mobilize forces against it. The only problem, of course, is that in the ME universe, there isn't such an organization. That doesn't make Cerberus any less bad, though you can argue that they're a necessary evil.

Modifié par Empiro, 11 février 2010 - 06:33 .

[Abirn]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

Abirn wrote...
That said,   when you are facing mass extinction then rules and morals get thrown out the window.  You do what you have to do to survive.

Cerberus isn't doing what it is doing for survival (outside of trying to stop the Collector's and Reapers) it's goal is Human Dominance.

I understand and support Shepard working with them (Paragon or Renegade) because they are the only means to an end, stopping the Collector's. Supporting Cerberus fully and their ideals?

That isn't fighting for survival anymore.

Look at it this way.  After the reaper threat is gone if Cerberus goes for a power grab.  Shepard took out 2 reapers.  I'm sure he's a big enough badass to take out Cerberus and TIM while blindfolded.

[MatronAdena]

I akin Cerberus to Space **** wow odd word edit ( certain group from the 40's also known for their conquests of a particular heredity and known for doing off the wall horrid experements on other living persons....)   ...who dont know they are space **** ( at least not every individual, but in it's core I honestly want to equate the illusive man to Himmler

Modifié par MatronAdena, 11 février 2010 - 06:35 .

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Abirn wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

Abirn wrote...
That said,   when you are facing mass extinction then rules and morals get thrown out the window.  You do what you have to do to survive.

Cerberus isn't doing what it is doing for survival (outside of trying to stop the Collector's and Reapers) it's goal is Human Dominance.

I understand and support Shepard working with them (Paragon or Renegade) because they are the only means to an end, stopping the Collector's. Supporting Cerberus fully and their ideals?

That isn't fighting for survival anymore.

Look at it this way.  After the reaper threat is gone if Cerberus goes for a power grab.  Shepard took out 2 reapers.  I'm sure he's a big enough badass to take out Cerberus and TIM while blindfolded.

The problem is, Shepard would have to prepare himself to take down Cerberus while also taking down the Reaper's since I'm sure Cerberus would already be working their plans for their power grab to occur either immediately after victory or at the moment of victory.

Give TIM a robe and he's Emperor Palpatine. 

[marshalleck]

Abirn wrote...

Look at it this way.  After the reaper threat is gone if Cerberus goes for a power grab.  Shepard took out 2 reapers.  I'm sure he's a big enough badass to take out Cerberus and TIM while blindfolded.

But he may not want to...

It's interesting to me that it seems possible for Shepard to embrace Cerberus' aims. I hope that Casey Hudson is not exaggerating when he said that the different paths through ME3 can lead to greatly divergent conclusions.

[Abirn]

MatronAdena wrote...

I akin Cerberus to Space ****...who dont know they are space **** ( at least not every individual, but in it's core I honestly want to equate the illusive man to Himmler

If cerberus are space **** then what would you call the race of giant supercomputers hell bent on galactic wide genocide?  <_<

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Abirn wrote...

MatronAdena wrote...

I akin Cerberus to Space ****...who dont know they are space **** ( at least not every individual, but in it's core I honestly want to equate the illusive man to Himmler

If cerberus are space **** then what would you call the race of giant supercomputers hell bent on galactic wide genocide?  <_<

Space Japanese

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

KorPhaeron11 wrote...

Abirn wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

Abirn wrote...
That said,   when you are facing mass extinction then rules and morals get thrown out the window.  You do what you have to do to survive.

Cerberus isn't doing what it is doing for survival (outside of trying to stop the Collector's and Reapers) it's goal is Human Dominance.

I understand and support Shepard working with them (Paragon or Renegade) because they are the only means to an end, stopping the Collector's. Supporting Cerberus fully and their ideals?

That isn't fighting for survival anymore.

Look at it this way.  After the reaper threat is gone if Cerberus goes for a power grab.  Shepard took out 2 reapers.  I'm sure he's a big enough badass to take out Cerberus and TIM while blindfolded.

You're makeing an assumption here, that I and my shep are against human dominance. If I can in ME3 ill kill TIM and take over the whole thing myself, because TIM thinks too small.

I only need the Salarians on my side, and makeing them an equal partner will get them onboard, then I can start, the Human-Salarian Empire.

Why Salarians?

[the120Truth]

Tali dosn't like them,...thats enough for me

[Kileyan]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

Abirn wrote...
That said,   when you are facing mass extinction then rules and morals get thrown out the window.  You do what you have to do to survive.

Cerberus isn't doing what it is doing for survival (outside of trying to stop the Collector's and Reapers) it's goal is Human Dominance.

I understand and support Shepard working with them (Paragon or Renegade) because they are the only means to an end, stopping the Collector's. Supporting Cerberus fully and their ideals?

That isn't fighting for survival anymore.

Across several post you keep saying the same thing, as if stopping the Reapers is some secondary objective of Cerebus. From a meta gaming point of view, you could say that Cerebus knows that Bioware will save the galaxy, so they are playing all angles to be in a position to be in power.

From an in game perspective, from people on the ground, in that situation, that don't know if any of this will exist once the Reapers show up. You keep obsessing about what will happen after the reapers, that is what people call meta gaming. Those people in the game are not in any way convinced that the entire galaxy will exist once the reapers take their 50,000 year cruise around the galaxy.

Cerebus and everyone else is grabbing every bit of tech they can to fight a war, not a war about land or resources, the enemy doesn't want our oil, clean water or iridium. They just want us dead, wipe us out of existance like teachers erase a black board, and start over each day.

Your argument are about safe moral discussion that people can have when they don't worry about dying. WHo cares why Cerebus is doing what they are doing. First and foremost, it won't even matter if they want galaxy dominace, it there is no galaxy anymore. Cerebus is doing this for survivial, their survival coincide with the survival of the entire galaxy!

[marshalleck]

the120Truth wrote...

Tali dosn't like them,...thats enough for me

She and the rest of the quarians will when Cerberus delivers a geth-free Rannoch to them.

Modifié par marshalleck, 11 février 2010 - 06:47 .

[PirateMouse]

Kileyan wrote...
Across several post you keep saying the same thing, as if stopping the Reapers is some secondary objective of Cerebus. From a meta gaming point of view, you could say that Cerebus knows that Bioware will save the galaxy, so they are playing all angles to be in a position to be in power.

From an in game perspective, from people on the ground, in that situation, that don't know if any of this will exist once the Reapers show up. You keep obsessing about what will happen after the reapers, that is what people call meta gaming. Those people in the game are not in any way convinced that the entire galaxy will exist once the reapers take their 50,000 year cruise around the galaxy.

Cerebus and everyone else is grabbing every bit of tech they can to fight a war, not a war about land or resources, the enemy doesn't want our oil, clean water or iridium. They just want us dead, wipe us out of existance like teachers erase a black board, and start over each day.

Your argument are about safe moral discussion that people can have when they don't worry about dying. WHo cares why Cerebus is doing what they are doing. First and foremost, it won't even matter if they want galaxy dominace, it there is no galaxy anymore. Cerebus is doing this for survivial, their survival coincide with the survival of the entire galaxy!

Best response in the thread.

I started out hating Cerberus, and I still don't trust them.  Yes, it might be necessary to fight them someday, assuming we first successfully put an end to the Reaper threat.  My Shep is certainly not remotely anti-alien or all about human dominance.  (A bit of a xenophile in the case of Liara, in fact!)

But the simple fact is, Cerberus is the only organization doing anything at all to prepare for the Reapers.  Sure, from a metagaming perspective, we all can probably guess that there are multiple paths to defeating them, but from an in-game perspective, there's absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe that there's necessarily any path to defeating them, and your choices are basically between the Council that won't do anything until the Reapers show up and wipe everyone out (and then they'll just die), the Alliance that won't do anything either, or ... Cerberus, which is actively doing things already.

Honestly, I kind of think it'd be great if the third game proved unwinnable for a 100 percent Paragon.  "Congratulations, you've successfully made the Council races love you! But they're still not doing anything about the Reapers, and you turned away your only allies who were.  Now everyone is dead.  Nice Job Breaking It, Hero."  Never happen, I know.  But it sure would be great, and it'd probably fit continuity a lot better than whatever deus ex machina Bioware will provide to save the wide-eyed idealists from themselves.  Superhero morality should not be rewarded in a game that deals in semi-realistic scenarios and dilemmas.

Seriously, though, I've got to tell you ... when we're looking at, quite literally, the fate of the entire galaxy at stake, I'm really hard-pressed to remember why I ever thought Cerberus was so bad.  Help me out here, guys: what about the admittedly sometimes questionable and extreme methods of Cerberus is more important than the lives of every single living being in the known universe?

[DeathScepter]

PirateMouse, I like you. But still this is one big Necro bump.

[tjzsf]

Not because they want to advance the cause of humanity, but because they suck so hard at doing so. Ever notice how all those little experiments they run with the rachni and the thorians and the thresher maws and the husks and who knows what else end up hurting humans? Seriously, thresher maw blood is acidic; do you really need to run experiments to test what happens when you stick it inside someone's blood vessels?

Idiotic bunch of loons.

[DeathScepter]

When They fail they fail epicly, When they are successful we will never know. that is the very nature of Black Ops.

[PirateMouse]

DeathScepter wrote...

PirateMouse, I like you. But still this is one big Necro bump.

Wooops! I found it randomly and didn't pay attention to the age of the thread. Sorry?

Though with ME3 just around the corner, maybe it's a timely revisiting? ... anyone willing to buy that spin?

tjzsf wrote...

Not because they want to advance the cause of humanity, but because they suck so hard at doing so. Ever notice how all those little experiments they run with the rachni and the thorians and the thresher maws and the husks and who knows what else end up hurting humans? Seriously, thresher maw blood is acidic; do you really need to run experiments to test what happens when you stick it inside someone's blood vessels?

Idiotic bunch of loons.

And I'd be right there with you, except that (a) that's not all of Cerberus (maybe that was just the Idiot Cell of Cerberus in action), and more importantly, ( nobody else is doing anything.

Honestly if my only choices are between the "do nothing and derp about in denial" crowd or a bunch of fringe crazies who dabble in dangerous experiments but are at least actively taking the coming threat seriously, I'm jumping on board with the latter crowd, and it's not even a hard choice.  The Reapers are one giant RESET BUTTON for all life without exception; actually faced with that, anything that might stop them is on the table for consideration.  Anything.

So yeah, under the circumstances, and ignoring the metagaming attitude that "Bioware will always give us another viable solution"? Sign me up for Cerberus.  Worrying about the fallout from that is something to save for after the Reapers, given there is an after.

DeathScepter wrote...

When They fail they fail epicly, When they are successful we will never know. that is the very nature of Black Ops.

Also, this.

Modifié par PirateMouse, 13 décembre 2011 - 05:45 .

[Reorte]

tjzsf wrote...

Not because they want to advance the cause of humanity, but because they suck so hard at doing so. Ever notice how all those little experiments they run with the rachni and the thorians and the thresher maws and the husks and who knows what else end up hurting humans? Seriously, thresher maw blood is acidic; do you really need to run experiments to test what happens when you stick it inside someone's blood vessels?

Idiotic bunch of loons.

Who knows how much of their dodgy-looking biological research helped in putting Shepard back together?

Just because someone or something turns out to be necessary to save the galaxy doesn't stop them from being bad. It just means you need them right now, and doesn't let them off the hook for all the bad stuff they've done for bad reasons. It's just that right now we've got a common enemy to worry about and we can't afford to be choosy.

[DeathScepter]

Cerberus I like them for they have style.

[khordlambert]

I could forgive Cerberus' human centricim. I could understand the experiments. What I cannot tolerate however is their sheer, mindbending, INCOMPETANCE!

Nearly EVERY time Shepard encounters something Cerberus related, it's something that has gone belly up. You have the creation of a super biotic that tore apart the facility and now hates the organization more than anything, you have them cloning Rachni which then get loose and spread to a number of worlds (UNC Missing Marines among others), mucking about with husks and Thorian Creepers which go nuts and kill everyone (UNC Colony of the Dead and UNC ExoGeni facility), turned a man into a super husk which then got loose (Retribution), created the Adjuants which once again got loose (Invasion), and nearly unleashed a Skynet situation (Project Overlord)! For crying out loud, nearly an entire team of their operatives died during Project Lazerus from ONE GUY circumventing the security of all the defense mechs and Lazerus was their most successful project alongside injecting a man with Thresher Venom to see what happens!

I speand two games cleaning up these idiots messes and people wonder why I call myself a Renagon despite outright HATING Cerberus!?

I'm honestly not shocked Cerbeurs is joining the Reapers! They've neraly destroyed the galaxy so many frigging times from their own stupidity they probably saw a pack of kindrid spirits with the giant genocidal Mecha-Shrimp.