212 réponses à ce sujet

[Seraosha]

I don't care people are disappointed in the direction of Mass Effect 2. I wasn't impressed with DA:O. But oh my days, EA isn't the source of all evil in the world! I wish gamers would grow up. Face the facts folks, Bioware developed this game and created this IP and they're taking it in the direction they want to take it. EA isn't the big bad wolf here.

Modifié par Seraosha, 11 février 2010 - 07:43 .

[AtreiyaN7]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

MPaBkaTa123 wrote...

Really Dinkamus insulting people is not really the best way to persuade them of anything.

Really? You figure that out by yourself did you? You dont think maybe thats why I tell them where to shove it?

MPaBkaTa123 wrote...
Less choice in ME2 don't make me laugh. Heavy weapons alone offered more variations of weapons then all of ME1, do not confuse "more damage and accuracy" for choice. There was one choice in armors that is Collosus or Predator that's it.But since i won't be able to change your opinion anyway i'll just say that i prefer whack a mole to holding the fire button.

Heavy weapons were a pointless exercise in ME2. Its the kind of flashly "look at this" mentality that let ME2 down. Even the nuke gun was stupid. For the amount of shots it gives you, I expect it to insta kill every enemy in the game bar the last boss (which I doubt anyone woudl hit most of the time anyway).

Instead on insanity it only takes a praetor down to half health.

Every other heavy weapon is just a slightly more powerful way of doing what ME2s combat is all about: emerge from combat and whack that mole!

And please, dont talk to me like I think ME1 had a picture perfect inventory and weapons system. It was as flawed as ME2s is. It just wasnt designed to pander to the shooter demographic filled with idiots. Mass Effect 2 is just as flawed as ME1 in many regards. Just because it approaches the same flaw from a new angle doesnt change a thing. You are stuck with a certain type of weapon for the entire game, and the only way to improve it is slightly increase its damage/acurracy/ammo load. Sound familar? Oh thats right, its just like ME1s I to X system, only slightly less cluttered, but just as boring.

Some of us who actually are RPG fans DO view the streamlining as an improvement, and you can refer to it as whatever you want, Dinkamus, even though I find it rude and juvenile. I will say that as a Vanguard in ME2,  I now have access to the Eviscerator, the Claymore, and the Scimitar, which have different properties (effectiveness against shields/barriers/armor), ammo counts and ranges. In ME1, tell me how many different shotguns had significantly different properties? None that I know of. I find my choices more varied and useful in ME2, and my shotgun is my primary weapon. As a Vanguard in ME1, I probably used my shotgun a handful of times in any single complete run through the whole game. I used my pistol to spam enemies to death because marksman + adrenaline burst + biotics = god-mode. You want boring? That's boring.

[AlanC9]

 

Stinkface27 wrote...
I do not understand why people continue to define RPGs as anything other than exactly what they are: role playing games. RPGs are not games that have x, y or z - they are games in which you play a role.

Well, by that definition any game could be an RPG. In Half-Life you're playing Gordon Freeman. In Hearts of Iron you're playing Hitler, Roosevelt, Churchill, etc. But the general point is sound.

Mostly it's a matter of the history of the genre. The part of RPGs that could be replicated on a computer easily became the part that defined the genre, even if those were the least important parts.

Oddly enough, you don't see this sort of fuss in the PnP RPG world. There are plenty of RPG systems that don't give out experience for kills, plenty that don't have inventory systems, etc. I'm guessing that we see more resistance here because CRPG players think their genre is threatened.

[Kalfear]

so lets see, NEW person posts their complaints about ME2 like so many new people before them have and the same 40-50 pro ME2 defence league spams yet anouther threads calling down the NEW POSTER.



You all realize we do know your the same person posting the same crap every thread. Bioware doesnt look at each thread and go "uhhhhh gee, 1 person against, 30 for, people must love ME2".



Use some brains already people.

[wrdnshprd]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

wrdnshprd wrote...

MPaBkaTa123 wrote...

Really Dinkamus insulting people is not really the best way to persuade them of anything. Less choice in ME2 don't make me laugh. Heavy weapons alone offered more variations of weapons then all of ME1, do not confuse "more damage and accuracy" for choice. There was one choice in armors that is Collosus or Predator that's it.But since i won't be able to change your opinion anyway i'll just say that i prefer whack a mole to holding the fire button.

i think the reason Dinkamus said what he/she did was simply because most people that prefer ME2 over ME1 and are completely in favor of ME2s direction, are generally the ones spewing the insults.  god forbid people want to give constructive criticizm to a gaming company

Really?  I would have to disagree, there has been abuse thrown about by both sides, those in support of the game get lambasted just for giving their constructive criticism (showing appproval for what you liked is also helpful to the devs so they know what not to cut), and there is also a significant difference between constructive criticism and the downright hating and trolling that has been going on here.

i agree in that both expressing approval and criticizm can help a company.  though i think those that support the game get 'lambasted' a lot less than those that have issues with the game.   thats been my experience anyway.

[Ekido]

Its funny some people dont even know what "RPG" actualy means and think all thoese inventorys and equipment optimization is what defines "RPG"....
"RPG" is a game where you can roleplay a character,
it doesnt mean there has to be confusing and clumsy inventorys or turn based combat as example.

ME1 propably had more tallents and weapons and armor but if you think about it.... how many differend weapons there actualy was? or how many differently functioning tallents there was? or how many of the armor actualy were differend from each other?

In ME2 bioware replaced amount with quality, in ME2 tallents, weapons and armors actualy function differently and are unique.

Modifié par Ekido, 11 février 2010 - 08:12 .

[JrayM16]

The game is still essentially an RPG. Here's why.



At the start of ME2 I choose a class and background and such. The class gives me different abilities and weapon skills.



I walk around the Citadel or Illium. I do a quest for someone. I get exp. After getting enough exp, I get a level up, giving me points to spend on six different stats that affect my abilities. After maxing out a stat, I choose a specialization for it that alters my abilities. I also get exp from combat, only it comes at the end of a mission intead of during. I get money which I can use to buy things that make my character better.



In combat I select different abilities that I ahve upgraded and use weapons I ahve upgraded. I command my squaddies to do things. I often pause combat to strategize and choose a power to use.



I also have dialogue trees where I can learn more about characters, even romance them. I can negotiate w/ people and have a few different outcomes, some of which gain me morality points. I make choices in the game which affect the story in a small but cool way.



If anyone reads the previous description and says the game I ahve described is not an RPG, they have a very strange definition of RPG in my opinion.

[Nick Fox]

Ekido wrote...

Its funny some people dont even know what "RPG" actualy means and think all thoese inventorys and equipment optimization is what defines "RPG"....
"RPG" is a game where you can roleplay a character,
it doesnt mean there has to be confusing and clumsy inventorys or turn based combat as example.

ME1 propably had more tallents and weapons and armor but if you think about it.... how many differend weapons there actualy was? or how many differently functioning tallents there was? or how many of the armor actualy were differend from each other?

In ME2 bioware replaced amount with quality, in ME2 tallents, weapons and armors actualy function differently and are unique.

Opinions warry my friend. Of course there was issues with ME but that dont alter my view of that ME 2 have a lot too and a whole lot of less character costumisation and weapon customisation. Thats a fact imo.
I dont feel I progress with my Shepard due to the lack of skills/talents whatever you want to call it. Same goes for the exploriation feeling, not there (hope DLC can adress that at least) and the combat is extremly focused on the cover thing rather than using ones skills to dictate the battlefield (to some degree one can but...meh)
The game doesnt give you the feeling of beeing a universe anymore, its very....how shall I put it....striped of any sort of progression (illusion or not thats what it gave me in ME). The story....pretty much stright up with no twists....Frankly I dont see many things to call this sequal an rpg of any sort. Its a tactical shooter nothing more imo.
The "illusion" of progress and beeing able to costumise both your charather and party (armor, weapons, skills etc) is vital to any sort of rpg, this dont have that again imo. Its soulsess. Nothing to set it apart from, borderlands or any mech game out there. Hell Chrome Hounds ****** on this game when it comes to customisation, how can that be ? Strange feeling. Twilightzone....yep thats what it is.
It has its moments though and not everything is bad, but it aint an rpg, thats for damn sure. Maybe a Mech game or a shooter, not a mix of Crpg or whatever else you call it, no progress or customisation equals....no rpg (my opinion).

Now run and hide behind that crater and shoot when the enemy reloads . Thats my feeling on the game.

Modifié par Nick Fox, 11 février 2010 - 08:38 .

[obie191970]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...
Many shooter fans are idiots, and many of them have come on here "whining about whining".

In short: read better.

As opposed to the traditional RPG idiots, of which many of them have come on here "whining and whining."  Idiots aren't relegated to one genre, my friend.

Modifié par obie191970, 11 février 2010 - 08:43 .

[yoomazir]

Even Bioshock 2 as more rpg elements than ME2,this is sad....

[JrayM16]

obie191970 wrote...

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...
Many shooter fans are idiots, and many of them have come on here "whining about whining".

In short: read better.

As opposed to the traditional RPG idiots, of which many of them have come on here "whining and whining."  Idiots aren't relegated to one genre, my friend.

Indeed.

[Gabey5]

i enjoyed both games.

[wrdnshprd]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

wrdnshprd wrote...

Paxcorpus wrote...

My god, I am so sick of the idiots out here. RPG DOES NOT MEAN large inventories and loot farming.

GET

A

GRIP

i think the more accurate statement is.. YOUR definition of RPG does not constitute large inventories and loot farming..

tradition would dictate otherwise.

Actually tradition would not dictate otherwise.  There has always been a schism between roleplayers and rollplayers, especially among tabletop: some play for stats, for getting the best loot etc, while others play to take on the role of their character, making choices that may even cost them phat loot because that's what their character would do, and not really bothering with stats but the role they are playing.  Both are right, they are just different forms of roleplay, it's just that people don't seem to understand that RPG covers a larger array of playstyles than they realise, just look at the differences between many other cRPGs from Final Fantasy to Baldur's Gate, from Oblivion to Diablo, from Deus Ex to Baldur's Gate, there are vast differences. 

Sci-Fi covers stories about the future, but within that can be Cyberpunk, Space Opera, Hard Science etc, all vastly different to one another and yet all still Science Fiction. 

So, to sum up, tradition would not dictate otherwise, as a longtime roleplayer of both cRPGs and tabletop as well as live, I have seen many different forms, and while ME2 may not fall within some people's style of roleplay, it is still an RPG, and in many ways more of an RPG than most other RPGs I have played in a long while.

you make some good points here, and maybe i should have clarified what i meant by 'tradition'.  im talking strictly in video game terms.   all of those video games you mentioned still had one thing in common.. it had at least some way of being able to customize the effectiveness of your character through stats.. to demonstrate what i mean lets take a look at each of the games you mentioned:

final fantasy:

had inventory
had attribute stats
had ways to customize your party (do i want to focus this character in being a white mage, black mage, warrior, etc)

Baldur's Gate

used the D20 D&D system and included feats, skills, spells, etc. 

Oblivion

this is a good definition of a hybrid because this game DID use the reflex skills of the player in combat.  however, there was still a system in place to effect how you wanted to customize your character..  did i want to be a mage, warrior, thief?  what kind of mage? elemental, healing, etc.  and these had a lot of influance in how the character played in game that had nothing to do with the player's reflex skills.  not so much in ME2.

Diablo

again, a good definition of a hybrid because the skill of the player was used quite well.. however, again there was still an effective system in place in customizing your character.  you had the robust loot system of course, but u also had the skill trees and stat bonus decisions you had to make during each level up.  also, each class had different paths you could follow and the gameplay was different for each path.

Deus Ex

IMO this is probably the best definition of a hybrid because it had so much depth.  you had stealth, you could target specific parts of the body, etc.  yet there was a ton of skills and abilities you had to think about that affected the character as well..  you could really customize your character the way you wanted.. and to be honest, besides the ammo, loot really wasnt the issue.. it was more 'do i want my character to be a sniper?  how about a rifleman?  or how about should i specialize in shotguns to utilize the different ammo types?  what about hacking and security?  and it goes on and on. 

Now lets take a look at ME2

In ME2, sure you can select what type of class you want.. but lets take the soldier for example.. i cant say.. am i going to focus on assault rifles or shotguns or sniper rifles.. i just know everything off the bat.  also, i have a pre-determined path to follow pretty much in my selected class and the specializatoin you pick up  doesnt usually give off more than a 10% boost to stats.  it really has no bearing on how my character plays out. i am willing to bet if i never selected 4 for any of the skills for a given class i could still go through the game on any difficulty and still do pretty well.  that to me is not character customization.  and that is my problem with ME2. 

and really all they have to do to improve this is give me more customization options for my armor AND for my squadmates, include omni-tool upgrades,  and include a bit more selection for the weapons (say 5 guns per category).  thats all.  if they do this i can live with the drop in skill customization.

[TuringPoint]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Some of us who actually are RPG fans DO view the streamlining as an improvement, and you can refer to it as whatever you want, Dinkamus, even though I find it rude and juvenile.

Well said.

I'd also like to add my voice to saying that the original Deus Ex is an excellent marker for where a shooter/RPG hybrid could be.  Deus Ex was also exceptionally similar in setting, in that the main character had "powers" in addition to some RPG skills.  Unfortunately the Mass Effect series has never had the feel of an RPG - although I feel the streamlining of ME 2, as much as it still has certain flaws, is an improvement.  Still, ME2 has none of the feeling that your character investment in skills influences anything other than combat.  I don't know why the ME series has always lacked that feeling.

I have no idea where Bioware's intent is with Mass Effect.  I suppose it wouldn't make any sense to have a swimming skill, or a running skill, etc., but it wouldn't hurt if they added another skill tree that effects such things as dialogue, or maybe allows you to engineer skill combos with your team, or have a slight impact on shooter dynamics.  I sort of missed having weapon skills in ME 2, that is to say, I like the new class-specific abilities a lot more.

If they could have the equivalent of the Dragon Age talent tree for conversation skills, or something like D&D feats, and maybe make those analogous to persuasion skills, hacking skills - as much as I liked being able to hack anything on any character, I like having some flavor - skills that have influence outside of combat.

Modifié par Alocormin, 11 février 2010 - 09:02 .

[JrayM16]

I would actually argue ME2 has more skill customization cause you can pick a spec for each stat, alterring gameplay quite a bit, depending on the stat.

[Virde]

The only thing that displeased me in ME2 was how small cities that you visited were compared to the first one. That and how little shops had to offer to you.



Other than that, I enjoyed every change they made.

[Varenus Luckmann]

Baby. Bath water. Thrown out.



/thread

[Frotality]

[lukandroll]

BLY78NOR wrote...

yay another one of these thread, you're so original and special

I love RPGs to i love getting stuck on a pebble in the road and having to grind for 47 hours to up my jump peeble skill enough to get past it, that's smart gaming and not lame in any way
.
I hope they spend the next 2-3 years making ME2 less intuitive. I also hope they add lighsabers, elves, a dungeon master to make sure you do the proper amount of grind before it lets you go back to playing the game and they replace combat with random turn based dice rolls.

All what I read from your post is "I hate RPGS, bring more action"

BioWare choose to **** over their core audience, and its paying off, there more shooter fans in these boards than ever

[Ekido]

I said it once already and i say it again....
Inventorys, customization, tactical combat, etc... etc...
Does not define RPG

It seems like everyone has forgotten that there is actualy dialogue system in this game wich allows you to ROLEPLAY your character.

I know its useless to keep saying it since theres always these oldschool "RPG" players who think game isnt an RPG without items and stuff and no force in the universe can change their mind.

Modifié par Ekido, 11 février 2010 - 09:22 .

[Doug84]

banshee768 wrote...

Funny. I just returned to ME1 to get a female soldier for ME2 and I hate it. I've completed the first 2 main missions and can't bring myself to continue. Unfortunately that means I won't be able to play ME2 either, because the default decisions suck. Lose-lose situation.

Indeed. ME1 < ME2. Keep on track BioWare!

[grieferbastard]

You can't compare Deus Ex with ME. Deus Ex was more sandbox and less cinema. ME2 is cinema - so was ME1. It has always been about playing in a movie. You had the camera filter effect ferchristsake.

Deus Ex was awesome filled awesome with awesome sauce. Good storytelling too. It did not, however, flow like ME2 has. ME2 is cinema. A brilliantly well done cinematic RPG. In the Die Hard series did the hero stop after killing every badguy to calculate DPS from their weapon to his and pick the one he liked better? 

No. He shot the silly bastard, either before or after saying something witty, and ran on to shoot the next guy. Sometimes he talked, sometimes he socialized and helped build the plot, but who went to Die Hard because they wanted to see rich character development?

ME2 streamlined what was already in ME1 very effectively and made it better cinema. A faster, sleeker, sexier story that you get to jump into the middle of as the lead character. Encounters are designed to move the story along and challenge you, make those dramatic 'running across broken glass while people spray bullets at you' or 'hanging from the helicoptor shooting terrorists' sort of feeling. You don't see the action hero pausing, mid-dangle while suspended upside down from a ladder which in turn dangles from a precariously listing helicoptor because he has to switch from teflon to cryo rounds in order to get max DPS snuffing the next gaggle of expendable terrorist bullet-fodder!

ME2 is all about John Frickin' Wayne, kickin' in the door guns blazing while holding the reins of his horse in his teeth - and he's not even riding a horse! You don't level up John Wayne. He's already John Frickin' Wayne. He doesn't level up. He just finds things he hasn't shot. Yet.

[UltimateRC]

I have to agree on some levels with the OP.

[invert180]

grieferbastard wrote...

You can't compare Deus Ex with ME. Deus Ex was more sandbox and less cinema. ME2 is cinema - so was ME1. It has always been about playing in a movie. You had the camera filter effect ferchristsake.

Deus Ex was awesome filled awesome with awesome sauce. Good storytelling too. It did not, however, flow like ME2 has. ME2 is cinema. A brilliantly well done cinematic RPG. In the Die Hard series did the hero stop after killing every badguy to calculate DPS from their weapon to his and pick the one he liked better? 

No. He shot the silly bastard, either before or after saying something witty, and ran on to shoot the next guy. Sometimes he talked, sometimes he socialized and helped build the plot, but who went to Die Hard because they wanted to see rich character development?

ME2 streamlined what was already in ME1 very effectively and made it better cinema. A faster, sleeker, sexier story that you get to jump into the middle of as the lead character. Encounters are designed to move the story along and challenge you, make those dramatic 'running across broken glass while people spray bullets at you' or 'hanging from the helicoptor shooting terrorists' sort of feeling. You don't see the action hero pausing, mid-dangle while suspended upside down from a ladder which in turn dangles from a precariously listing helicoptor because he has to switch from teflon to cryo rounds in order to get max DPS snuffing the next gaggle of expendable terrorist bullet-fodder!

ME2 is all about John Frickin' Wayne, kickin' in the door guns blazing while holding the reins of his horse in his teeth - and he's not even riding a horse! You don't level up John Wayne. He's already John Frickin' Wayne. He doesn't level up. He just finds things he hasn't shot. Yet.

Dude... that was epic.