212 réponses à ce sujet

[Amikae]

Revan312 wrote...

Amikae wrote...

Thats just your opinion. I dont think many people will share it though.

It being the best RPG I've played ya, that's an opinion, it having a ton more detail is a fact, whether people agree with it being good or not..  VMB had a ton more character customization, as well as having a bunch more of options concerning the story, period.

Since when is this a forum to discuss VMB? I dont think this is the place to discuss this game. If you dont like ME2, fine. Just dont force your opinion on people.

[Revan312]

Amikae wrote...


Since when is this a forum to discuss VMB? I dont think this is the place to discuss this game. If you dont like ME2, fine. Just dont force your opinion on people.

I never brought it up.. someone else did and compared it to ME2, I was simply stating that it's a far cry from VMB.  If you can't handle your precious views of ME2 being stepped on by someone then I'm sorry, I was just pointing out the truth.  Also, this is a forum..  forums are for opinions, I'm not "forcing" them on anyone, if you want to keep believing what you want, go for it, I don't care.

[Amikae]

Revan312 wrote...

Amikae wrote...


Since when is this a forum to discuss VMB? I dont think this is the place to discuss this game. If you dont like ME2, fine. Just dont force your opinion on people.

I never brought it up.. someone else did and compared it to ME2, I was simply stating that it's a far cry from VMB.  If you can't handle your precious views of ME2 being stepped on by someone then I'm sorry, I was just pointing out the truth.  Also, this is a forum..  forums are for opinions, I'm not "forcing" them on anyone, if you want to keep believing what you want, go for it, I don't care.

The problem is the way you state your opinion. "I was just pointing out the truth". What truth? Are you god or something? Keep your truths for yourself and start being more polite maybe? No one asked for your godlike attitude. Its a discussion killer.

[The_Shootist]

AlbertoAquilani wrote...

If you look up, there's a whole thread dedicated to what fans want in ME 3. Try using your eyes once in a while.

http://social.biowar...03/index/887957

Which has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

[Matshelge]

Revan312 wrote...

Matshelge wrote...

Yes! Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines is without a doubt one of the best RPGs ever made, and it shares a bunch of traits with ME2.

What traits does VMB share with ME2?  The inventory was an actual inventory, with varying plot items etc. 

There was 7 different (and I mean super different) clans, each was treated completely distinctly from one another by nearly all the NPC's.. and there was what... like 21 skills with 4 points each to level up and you couldn't even come close to maxing even half of them, that doesn't include the 3 disciplines for each clan with 4 levels to each of those.

The dialogue was extremely well done and varied, leading to a multitude of different situations that could arise. Besides the 3-4 normal dialogue choices you had intimidate/persuasion/seduction/dominate dialogue choices.

The story itself actually evolved based on your decisions which lead to something like 6 completely seperate endings.  Each encounter with an individual could go into an array of different directions.

You had to balance your humanity so as not to become a crazed lunatic that frenzied at the drop of a pin, etc etc  It really doesn't have much in common with ME2 and saying so tarnishes VMB's name.

Even though I liked ME2 (minus the last boss ) VMB was 10 times the game imo.  It had the best dialogue/story/choices of any RPG I've ever played and had a cast of truly exciting and dynamic characters.  ME2 is a watered down shooter with a story that you can experiance in two different ways *yawn*  It was fun for the little time it held my interest, but lets not fool ourselves into thinking it was anywhere NEAR VMB's level of detail.

Yes, in your opinion, Bloodlines is 10 times the game, but *yawn*, lets not degrade oursselves to hyperbols. Super diffrent clans? Yea, Nosferatu and Malkavian are Super diffrent, but the other 5 are very similar.
Throwin around such things as "having to balance humanity?" Common, that is so easy to keep in check, I wonder why they even put in in there.
And
there really is not 6 diffrent, there are more like 3 with minor
variations. You could even argue that ME2 has far more "Endings"
depending on choices you made.

Take of the rose tinted glasses and really look at the game, and how the system works, how the dialog is put up, instead of just thinking its magic and drooling at it, and you will see why these two share some baseline qualities on being a "RPG", and why Bloodlines is a good example of a RPG without all the stuff that people have argued are missing from ME2.

Having only played Bloodlines 12 or 13 times, let me try to put down the major points.

Inventory in Vampire is a ad-hoc thing if there ever was one, you either sell the stuff you pick up, or you use it. Having these items simply turn into money would have no bearing on the game as a whole. Unlike NWN, Dragon Age or Baldurs Gate, where inventorymanagment is a important part of the game, this is not so in Vampire.

Weapons and Armor come in simple upgrades, Tier 1, Tier 2, Tier 3 and Tier 4. You don't go up, you don't go back.
This is much like Mass Effect 2, added 50% armor, 30% more damage, behind the scenes, its the same type of upgrade system at work here.

While the classes are diffrent, they still have a very focused levelingsystem, much like Mass Effect. Using a diffrent class really does change up the combat, much like diffrent clans do in Vampire

Dialog and Choices, this is the core value of each game, it is what really makes Vampire a good game, and it is what makes Mass Effect a good game. Mass Effect might have good combat, and Vampire might have horrible combat, but it does not matter, because in both games, this is such a secondary game funciton, to get to the next dialog.
(In contrast, look at Dragon Age, and how much of the game is focused around strategy, having a good build, getting the right armor/weapons, min maxing and statpumping)

Modifié par Matshelge, 12 février 2010 - 03:26 .

[Revan312]

Amikae wrote...

The problem is the way you state your opinion. "I was just pointing out the truth". What truth? Are you god or something? Keep your truths for yourself and start being more polite maybe? No one asked for your godlike attitude. Its a discussion killer.

But...it...is...the...truth.  VMB had far more customization, I listed it out, it's not an opinion, for some reason you can't grasp that.  And the only problem here is you being somehow offended because of of a blip of discussion on VMB.  Get over it.  And I'm not the one that started the argument, it was still discussion before, with me listing evidence then ME2 isn't nearly as diverse of a game, then you came in saying it was opinion, which it wasn't, and that discussion about VMB has no place on this forum...   This thread is called Bring back the RPG, it's kind of a given that other games are gonna come up when talking about the genre itself.

And your view that I have a "godlike attitude" is only your hurt feelings on the subject coming out.  If you can't handle people being straight forward and stating their thoughts directly then it's time to get off the forums because that's how most people discuss things in this medium.

[Sibbwolf]

Revan312 wrote...

But...it...is...the...truth.  VMB had far more customization, I listed it out, it's not an opinion, for some reason you can't grasp that.

That is correct.. sort of. But also besides the point. Mass Effect was never going to be that open ended.

This thread is called Bring back the RPG, it's kind of a given that other games are gonna come up when talking about the genre itself.

I think the OP also made his definition of RPG quite clear, and other people have said he's wrong... I'm content to say while there are things that need improvement in ME2, I don't want it to head in the direction of ME1

[nicodeemus327]

Sibbwolf wrote...

I think the OP also made his definition of RPG quite clear, and other people have said he's wrong... I'm content to say while there are things that need improvement in ME2, I don't want it to head in the direction of ME1

Well said.

Adding more RPG elements won’t necessarily make Mass Effect 3 a better game. The two major aspects of Mass Effect are the action (shooting people, using powers) and playing the role of Commander Sheppard (talking to people, making choices). Any feature that takes time away from doing either of these two aspects should be cut.

I don’t want to see needless RPG elements added to this game just to appease certain fans. If it makes the previously mentioned aspects stronger, great add them. Otherwise don’t worry about it.

Modifié par nicodeemus327, 12 février 2010 - 03:41 .

[Revan312]

Matshelge wrote...

Yes, in your opinion, Bloodlines is 10 times the game, but *yawn*, lets not degrade oursselves to hyperbols. Super diffrent clans? Yea, Nosferatu and Malkavian are Super diffrent, but the other 5 are very similar.
Throwin around such things as "having to balance humanity?" Common, that is so easy to keep in check, I wonder why they even put in in there.

One, it's not hypobole, I played VMB probobly 15 times and ME2 twice, so I guess I should say 7.5 times the game as I consider holding my attention the level of game quality.

Two, I wasn't talking about how the clans actually played, I meant in how people talked to you or about you, how they reacted to you, each clan solicits very different opinions from the NPC's, influencing your decisions.

And
there really is not 6 diffrent, there are more like 3 with minor
variations. You could even argue that ME2 has far more "Endings"
depending on choices you made.

There was 5 endings to correct myself, the anarch, la croix, selfish, asian vampire, and leaving.  And each one was completely different from the others.  It didn't have the overarching impact that the endings in ME2 will since this game's decisions will carry over into ME3 but besides different squad deaths which seem tacked on, there's three endings in ME2.

Take of the rose tinted glasses and really look at the game, and how the system works, how the dialog is put up, instead of just thinking its magic and drooling at it, and you will see why these two share some baseline qualities on being a "RPG", and why Bloodlines is a good example of a RPG without all the stuff that people have argued are missing from ME2.

I don't have rose tinted glasses, I still have VMB installed on my comp and the last time I played it was a month ago.  It's more satisfying in many regards to me than the uber streamlined and clinical level system in ME2.

Having only played Bloodlines 12 or 13 times, let me try to put down the major points.

Inventory in Vampire is a ad-hoc thing if there ever was one, you either sell the stuff you pick up, or you use it. Having these items simply turn into money would have no bearing on the game as a whole. Unlike NWN, Dragon Age or Baldurs Gate, where inventorymanagment is a important part of the game, this is not so in Vampire.

Weapons and Armor come in simple upgrades, Tier 1, Tier 2, Tier 3 and Tier 4. You don't go up, you don't go back.
This is much like Mass Effect 2, added 50% armor, 30% more damage, behind the scenes, its the same type of upgrade system at work here.

While the classes are diffrent, they still have a very focused levelingsystem, much like Mass Effect. Using a diffrent class really does change up the combat, much like diffrent clans do in Vampire

I'm beginning to wonder if the bolded is true, the leveling in VMB isn't  focused, it's very open ended.  You can go down social trees or combat trees or hacking/lockpicking trees or your clans disiplines etc, you have to concentrate on only a small number of them.  By the end your a specialist in one to maybe two areas, ME2 your almost maxed in all your "powers", all of them only having to do with combat with the base class skill having a para/rene aspect slapped on it.  Besides the weapons and xp at the end of completed assignments rather than enemy deaths driving it, there's not much in common.

Dialog and Choices, this is the core value of each game, it is what really makes Vampire a good game, and it is what makes Mass Effect a good game. Mass Effect might have good combat, and Vampire might have horrible combat, but it does not matter, because in both games, this is such a secondary game funciton, to get to the next dialog.
(In contrast, look at Dragon Age, and how much of the game is focused around strategy, having a good build, getting the right armor/weapons, min maxing and statpumping)

I will admit, the melee combat felt bad in VMB but FPS aspects were good imo and yes, the combat in it was just to get you to your next character encounter.  ME2 feels like combat first, dialogue second.  The "wheel" is a perfect exaple of a more linear experiance involving dialogue and most of the time your "decisions" don't matter much. It felt like I really had control over what my character did in VMB so I feel as if it was a much better "rpg" than ME2.

Like I said, I liked ME2, I just consider it more of a combat game with "watch what happens next" aspects.  It's definatly more cinematic, but it never truly feels like I have a lot of control over things minus a couple loyalty missions and the save it or no ending.  As I said earlier, the game's worth is completely subjective, I find VMB much more engrossing than ME2, others it's vice versa, I was just pointing out that besides the xp issues, they really aren't that similar.

[Skilled Seeker]

Its better like this. Suck it up!

[yoomazir]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Its better like this. Suck it up!

no it's not.SUCK THAT!

[Temper_Graniteskul]

obie191970 wrote...

Why can't everyone admit that both ME1 and ME2 have some serious flaws to them. Yet, if you take them on face value and try not to pigeon-hole them into this or that genre, they are both fantastic games.

And someone above mentioned the ME2 is a shooter in corridors - How is that any different from the combat in ME1?

Scenario-wise, very little. There aren't as many loose crates, I suppose. In terms of gameplay, though, ME2 has very little compensation for variable player ability; if you weren't very good at shooters or even squad tactics in ME1 you could still get through the game without too much trouble, as character skill trumped what the player was bringing to the table. In ME2, that's just not the case.

Perhaps that's what some of us mean when we say we'd like a return to RPG - I'd like my character's skills in combat and in conversation to matter, not my own. I actually don't mind the new weapon and armour inventory (it could stand a few more options, but not the nightmare of version numbered items that ME1 had). I'm not even that put out by the mission accomplished screen, though I do think it breaks immersion and I'd rather access such things optionally at my personal terminal on the Normandy. But my character should matter more than I do, and how combat goes should be more affected by the choices I make for my character than by the ability I personally have to aim a gun.

[Matshelge]

Revan312 wrote...

I don't have rose tinted glasses, I still have VMB installed on my comp and the last time I played it was a month ago.  It's more satisfying in many regards to me than the uber streamlined and clinical level system in ME2.

No, you are looking at it as if the game was magic, "its so open ended" no, it's a select few. And you can see all the triggers to it.

After completing the game 2 or more times, leveling is a simple selection of triggers you want to proc. If you go for melee you max out that one skill, you drop everything else. Going for Hacking you know what parts of the game needs X amount of each.

With seduction you know what parts will open up and you know what bonuses you get with lockpicking. It's not a major gamechanger,  much like Deus Ex, they are sidepath that lead you down the same story that branches out in the end.

Bloodlines is a good game due to the world feeling alive (or undead). How they use language that feel like it is actually spoken by real people, and not read by actors. How each character feel like they could exist in this world, without the main character ever encountering them.

This is what makes a good RPG, not inventory, not combatsystem, not minimaps, not levels, not skills, not XP, not gear nor anything else people want back in ME3.

[Nick Fox]

Ok I will come out and shoot it to you stright. I preorderd ME 2 becouse I love the first one, and was expecting a similar game only kind of upgraded with the problems it had (not axed and not a whole other game style, hate the duck and cover). What I got is a shooter with duck and cover syndrome to bore me to hell.
If this wasnt set in the ME universe this game wouldnt sell all that much, that I am pretty sure of.
If I'd known this I wouldnt even have looked into this game becouse in this gengre there are definatly better games out there for me.
To me this is a fail nothing more, to others a great game I suppose. What I dont understand is why the "fanboy's" cant accept that people that deeply cared for this series is dissapointed and let their opinions be known about it. Those who love it, prise it but why flame people that dont ?
Seems pretty fanboyish to me really.

Modifié par Nick Fox, 12 février 2010 - 09:45 .

[MPaBkaTa123]

Well Nick the problem is that while the fanboys do insult a lot the people who are dissapointed with the game often insult their intelligence or disregard their intelligence. Both sides are stupid and so are these threads but hey discussion is discussion.

[Duncan1337]

The RPG is still there!! Geez!!

[Nick Fox]

MPaBkaTa123 wrote...

Well Nick the problem is that while the fanboys do insult a lot the people who are dissapointed with the game often insult their intelligence or disregard their intelligence. Both sides are stupid and so are these threads but hey discussion is discussion.

Well I know both sides is flaming but to me the one side that do it all the time is pretty easy to pinpoint. My opinion anyway.

[Nick Fox]

Duncan1337 wrote...

The RPG is still there!! Geez!!

For you maybe, good on you then. For me, not at all.

[Duncan1337]

Nick Fox wrote...

Duncan1337 wrote...

The RPG is still there!! Geez!!

For you maybe, good on you then. For me, not at all.

I dont see how not. Im not trying to flame you or anything so lets just get that out of the way.

Anyway, All of the characters still level up, There are still skill bars. Its not your classic RPG but the elements are still around.

Plus the things they took out were sure not game breaking as I barley noticed, The story is still freakin amazing as well.

[WarlockSoL]

I didn't bother to read this entire thread, so maybe this has been brought up before. But:
http://en.wikipedia....ying_video_game

Read the section titled "Characteristics" and tell me Mass Effect 2 does not have almost all of those (with exception to the "Combat" part of that, which is where the "Action RPG" sub-genre takes over).

Modifié par WarlockSoL, 12 février 2010 - 10:44 .

[Arvid.Drak]

I've given up with saying what we want to have back or see in a game in forums such as this. Devs dont listen or care. They do their consumer research through beta testers, surveys and focus groups specifically employed to make a game that will reach out to a larger demographic. If you want your opinion to matter, get in the field. Go beta test, answer surveys, join focus groups.



Not part of any of that? Shut up, no one cares, you'll just start a huge thread of idiots yelling at other idiots.

[Nick Fox]

I dont see how not. Im not trying to flame you or anything so lets just get that out of the way.

Anyway, All of the characters still level up, There are still skill bars. Its not your classic RPG but the elements are still around.

Plus the things they took out were sure not game breaking as I barley noticed, The story is still freakin amazing as well.

[/quote]

[quote]Duncan1337 wrote...

[quote]Nick Fox wrote...

[quote]Duncan1337 wrote...

The RPG is still there!! Geez!![/quote]

For you maybe, good on you then. For me, not at all.
[/quote]

I dont see how not. Im not trying to flame you or anything so lets just get that out of the way.

Anyway, All of the characters still level up, There are still skill bars. Its not your classic RPG but the elements are still around.

Plus the things they took out were sure not game breaking as I barley noticed, The story is still freakin amazing as well.

[/quote]

Ok here are a few points could make a a very long list but wont.

1. The game is halfbaked from my point of view, uppgrade system for ex, They are all non brainers and to little of them no drawbacks contra edges etc to think of. Meaning no real customization, that goes for armors as well and powers too. There is little to no real difference you can make to you and your squadmates. To little pieces for the armor etc to few guns to little of everyhing and no stats you see bugs the hell out of me (some dont like to see them others like me do).
I dont really have an issue with the uppgrade system as such its just that it is nothing to do with it, no trees or thought, nothing! Theay are all must have simple and I dont want that.
If you can customize your party I dont really care if you do it with upg or talents/skills whatever works is fine by me.
The whole mineral thing is another halfbaked idea, if they are so preascious why arent they a commodity then ?
Wich leads to the economy also halfbaked, you get some funds from Cerberus and by finding safe's etc, but no chance to actually buy and sell things ? Stupid. The shops...can you call them that ? halfbaked again.

2. Powers. There is no real noticable way you actually can build your squad. To few of them to actually make some sort of customization (my opinion of it) For ex Jack the best biotic in the known universe bla bla have pull and shookwawe......? 2 biotics for the powerful Jack sheer nonsense. Whats the difference between her and Jacob in the game really ? Shoockwawe and barrier oh and the warp ammo, god god. Same weapons too ridiculous. More Powers to actually beeing able to somewhat tailormake your squad would be a most welcome addition. Halfbaked.

3. Choices. They dont really matter from me to me 2, very dissapointing indeed. With all the high talk from BW on this .....again half....
I understand its hard to achive that but dont try if you arent really prepared to go all the way. You look dumb otherwise. The choices in the game itself is also on the small scale not much really matters. There are a few occasions but all in all, half.....

4. Exploring. There is none. Sure you can scan and find an annormally (sp) and drop down to investigate a small base (mostly anyway). Then its back to the ship, no Mako to ride around with some mercs around or whatever you want for encounters. I want to look around on a planet at least give me the illusion of a vast game experience. You can add hidden bases/missions etc while down on a planet riding around. Why axe this and not just fix it ? i wonder I wonder. Why are Citadel so small, no  REAL Hubs etc it just seems so tight and small in space these days. Missing.

5. Squadmates. Personality wise its almost not there at all a few lines here and there and a loyalty mission, other than that? What do they do, say, think about events,each other (the fight between two crewmembers is a start that I hoped could lead to some serious....events) etc ? Nothing there, shallow.
Granted its a start but by no means close enough to make me care really. More...ok see you on the next mission or never again, wasted oppurtunity.

The customization is so lackluster that its not even funny, loot should be there (you dont have to have all useless stuff all over, but saomething to make the economy system work etc. keep the idea of beeing able to find that something little extra out in the universe cant be a totally misslead dream, can it ?
Beeing able to make one or a few of my weapons have a unique feel and preformance is to much to ask ? Especially when there were uppgardes in the first one, just plain stupid I guess.
Love the charasteristics of the weapons and love the distintion feel/job they have. Not enough though, only a start again hafl.....
I want MY  specialized team, MY unique weapon builds to differ from others is that in vain thought for a former spectre and saviour of all organics out there ? Yep sure is have this standard weapon and standard upg to go along as everybody else. Slimy and small is what it is to me.
Combat is another thing I find quite tidieous around this time. The whole duck & Cover thing gets on my nerves.
I want to be able to use my specialized powers to actually controll the field from time to time. Now I find it more to be "cool" finishers and not all that useable. There are exception, not many though. to little to matter on a wider scale.
A mix of a more free battle (strafing and duck system with added viehecle (sp) combat runs was in the fisrt and just needed to be tweaked not revamped to this....well to this....!
The so called lvl up and xp thing....a mission screen with awarded xp.....its nothing more than a ordinary promotion you see in many Mech games and a few shooters. That really dont add to a rpg experience more pisses me off But would be ok if this was a mech game like say Chrome hounds lite for ex.
For me series....not good enough. Well it could be if you got more powers, upg etc to actually tailormake your squad. Maybe. The ammo....powers ? idiotic same with the new collect ammo system, why not work on the heat system a little more instead ? Frankly I can see only one reason for not

This gives you the idea of what my concerns/views of what lacking is (there are more but this points you in the direction so to speak).

The game is presented exremly well, the graphics and sound are wonderfull indeed. It runs smooth without any popin etc. other than this its nothing all that special to me at all, just another halfbaked halfshooter.
The story....does it make me really care to rush after the collectors, nope. No sense of urgency at all. It just cant keep me all that interested to be honest. Ordinary not bad mind you, but nothing to write home about either.

Do I hate the game ? No but it clearly isnt even close to what I inticipated 3 out of 5.

[Arvid.Drak]

Nick Fox wrote...


********************************************rAoR**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************Roar**************************************************************************************MASSEFFECTNORPGRARRRRR****************************************************LOOKATME*****************************************************************************************************************************************************ROAR*

[The Mythical Magician]

I agree, I want ME3 to be a RPG with TPS elements not TPS with RPG elements.

[tzeraph1]

AlbertoAquilani wrote...

If you look up, there's a whole thread dedicated to what fans want in ME 3. Try using your eyes once in a while.

http://social.biowar...03/index/887957

It is sometimes good to make a thread for a singular thing as well, to discuss one aspect. Then details can transform into a concept, wich you then can post in the sticky forum.