179 réponses à ce sujet

[JKoopman]

I love how virtually every thread praising the new thermal clip system starts off with "It's really not any different than the overheat system from ME1" and then goes on to say how much better and more tactical it makes everything. Which is it? And if it's "basically the same" as ME1, then why change it in the first place?



Look, the ammo mechanic is just a blatant nod to shooter fans who, for whatever reason, just can't wrap their heads around weapons that don't need to be reloaded every 5 seconds. It completely contradicts everything that the first game set up in terms of weapon functionality as well as defies the laws of thermodynamics and is a puzzling technological step backwards for the Mass Effect universe. Many, MANY people do not like it and BioWare would be wise to rethink this system in ME3.

[Zem_]

I prefer limited ammo for gameplay reasons and wouldn't have cared if the devs had just come right out and said, "Folks, we're changing this. It's a retcon. The old unlimited ammo thing never happened." I appreciate that they *tried* to mold it into the existing explanation of how ME guns work, but... it's also got a lot of people hung up on trivialities and poking holes in the explanation rather than realizing the explanation is just some flimsy justification put in place to explain how the devs wanted to go to limited ammo because it's just plain MORE INTERESTING to play.



Okay, subjective opinion, but there it is. With all the complaining about ammo and guns and mods being more limited, less variety,etc. in ME2 the funny part is that my Infiltrator is actually using MORE guns in ME2 than in ME1 mostly due to limited ammo and the distinct advantages/disadvantages of each weapon vs. each kind of protection.



Way the hell better than ME1.

[Zhaocore]

Universal ammo system, check. Heatsink clip works, great.

Problem, out of heatsink clip for pistol. Now what?

Still have heat sink clips for rifle.

Cant use rifle heatsink for pistol heatsink?

Illogical! not satisfied!



*hug interrupt*

[tetracycloide]

Keep clips. Auto-loot post battle. Best of both worlds. No searching. No weapon spam.

[Darth Obvious]

Apexprimebest wrote...

Darth Obvious wrote...

The old unlimited ammo thing always seemed like a cheesy cop-out. I'm glad they fixed it.

They didn't fixed it, they cutted it... You missed the first part of my post - This is Scy-Fy... Does it says anything to you ?

Yeah, that not all sci-fi has to be cheesy. The old guns felt like toys from a kid game, and was perhaps the cheesiest thing in all of ME1.


In ME2 the gun/ammo system is far more elegant, and it makes for a far more immersive experience.


Besides, it's hard to run out of ammo anyway. I beat it on Insanity twice and never ran out of ammo the entire time. There is ammo to be found after about every fight.... so, what's the problem?

[Brother Pain]

The Real Him wrote...

Agreed. The majority of us support this change, so don't come back to the old system Bioware.

Disagreed. The majority of us liked the old system, so please revert to it Bioware.

Mine's as factual as yours. Both are opinions. Me, I liked the unlimited ammo system over scrounging for heat sinks now.

[Darth Obvious]

Brother Pain wrote...

The Real Him wrote...

Agreed. The majority of us support this change, so don't come back to the old system Bioware.

Disagreed. The majority of us liked the old system, so please revert to it Bioware.

Mine's as factual as yours. Both are opinions. Me, I liked the unlimited ammo system over scrounging for heat sinks now.

"Scrounging"?

Really? You are comfortable using the word 'scrounging' there?

The clips are laid out right in front of you after each fight. You walk forward, pick them up, and continue with the mission. It is the easiest gorram thing in the world, and for someone to act like it is such a burden is downright pathetic.

[Sibbwolf]

Brother Pain wrote...

The Real Him wrote...

Agreed. The majority of us support this change, so don't come back to the old system Bioware.

Disagreed. The majority of us liked the old system, so please revert to it Bioware.

Mine's as factual as yours. Both are opinions. Me, I liked the unlimited ammo system over scrounging for heat sinks now.

Thanks for pointing out its opinion, I hate people who quote unfounded statistics. Perhaps the best one would be "most people don't care enough to post one way or the other".

Personally, I prefer the new system, as its more plausible (seriously, I loved the impossible when I was 8) and encourages better tactics. I do think there could be a hybrid system, but I understand that such would also be very hard to program.

[obie191970]

The reason for the change is coherently and simplistically explained in the Codex. Personally, I don't mind the new system and have never run out of ammo.

[Zhaocore]

Codex illogical. Codex says "universal clip system", clearly it is not! Needs editing, yes. 

Modifié par Silger, 11 février 2010 - 05:16 .

[JKoopman]

Darth Obvious wrote...

Brother Pain wrote...

The Real Him wrote...

Agreed. The majority of us support this change, so don't come back to the old system Bioware.

Disagreed. The majority of us liked the old system, so please revert to it Bioware.

Mine's as factual as yours. Both are opinions. Me, I liked the unlimited ammo system over scrounging for heat sinks now.

"Scrounging"?

Really? You are comfortable using the word 'scrounging' there?

The clips are laid out right in front of you after each fight. You walk forward, pick them up, and continue with the mission. It is the easiest gorram thing in the world, and for someone to act like it is such a burden is downright pathetic.

You probably play a Soldier or Vanguard along with everyone else who just can't understand how anyone could ever have trouble with the ammo system. Try playing an Infiltrator where virtually every enemy you kill is 100 ft downrange and then try to remember the exact position of every enemy you dropped after battle (since their bodies magically disappear after about 3 seconds) so you can pick up their little shining clips. Yes, "scrounge" is a very fitting word. The end of virtually every sizable battle has me running all over holy hell looking for every last clip because my sniper rifle is constantly low on ammo and each thermal clip only gives it +1. It breaks up the flow of combat and, frankly, is just damn annoying.

Modifié par JKoopman, 11 février 2010 - 05:19 .

[obie191970]

JKoopman wrote...

Darth Obvious wrote...

Brother Pain wrote...

The Real Him wrote...

Agreed. The majority of us support this change, so don't come back to the old system Bioware.

Disagreed. The majority of us liked the old system, so please revert to it Bioware.

Mine's as factual as yours. Both are opinions. Me, I liked the unlimited ammo system over scrounging for heat sinks now.

"Scrounging"?

Really? You are comfortable using the word 'scrounging' there?

The clips are laid out right in front of you after each fight. You walk forward, pick them up, and continue with the mission. It is the easiest gorram thing in the world, and for someone to act like it is such a burden is downright pathetic.

You probably play a Soldier or Vanguard along with everyone else who just can't understand how anyone could ever have trouble with the ammo system. Try playing an Infiltrator where virtually every enemy you kill is 100 ft downrange and then try to remember the exact position of ever enemy position after battle so you can run over their little shining clip. Yes, "scrounge" is a very fitting word. The end of virtually every sizable battle has me running all over holy hell looking for every last clip because my sniper rifle is constantly low on ammo and each thermal clip only gives it +1. It breaks up the flow of combat and, frankly, is just damn annoying.

I played as an Infiltrator my first play through and had no issue with the system.  Because you are stubborn to adapt to the new system and will only use a Sniper Rifle, even if the situation calls for your Pistol or SMG - Then the system is broken?  You make it sound as if you are fighting 50 enemies at a time, instead of eight - All of which are in front of you in a location that you have to walk/run by to proceed through the level.  I'm not buying it.

[Darth Obvious]

JKoopman wrote...

Darth Obvious wrote...

Brother Pain wrote...

The Real Him wrote...

Agreed. The majority of us support this change, so don't come back to the old system Bioware.

Disagreed. The majority of us liked the old system, so please revert to it Bioware.

Mine's as factual as yours. Both are opinions. Me, I liked the unlimited ammo system over scrounging for heat sinks now.

"Scrounging"?

Really? You are comfortable using the word 'scrounging' there?

The clips are laid out right in front of you after each fight. You walk forward, pick them up, and continue with the mission. It is the easiest gorram thing in the world, and for someone to act like it is such a burden is downright pathetic.

You probably play a Soldier or Vanguard along with everyone else who just can't understand how anyone could ever have trouble with the ammo system. Try playing an Infiltrator where virtually every enemy you kill is 100 ft downrange and then try to remember the exact position of every enemy you dropped after battle (since their bodies magically disappear after about 3 seconds) so you can pick up their little shining clips.

I've only played as an Infiltrator, Sentinel, and Engineer (never did care for Soldier/Vanguard types... and I like tech). Never had any of the problems you speak of whatsoever. The missions are linear, after all, and it isn't nearly as hard as you suggest to remember where the enemies were (and not to mention that the ammo clips flash at you). It literally couldn't be easier.

[Zem_]

I also play an Infiltrator. Still on my first run. Initially I ran out of sniper ammo quickly after having just played ME1 but it didn't take long to adjust. I actually use all four weapons I'm carrying now, which never happened in ME1. I call it an improvement, but that's just me.

[JKoopman]

I could name a dozen instances throughout the game where I had to stop progressing the mission to go hunting for thermal clips. The first one that springs to mind is immediately before the atmospheric control room during Mordin's recruitment mission. After sniping the four rocketeers on the opposite balcony, I sent my squadmates in as I took up a position on the overlook and started sniping the vorcha as their rushed into the lower floor (you know, doing what a sniper specialist is supposed to do instead of running into close range with my pistol). Once the battle was over, I had to run down onto the lower floor, scour the right side of the room for clips, then run over to the left side and grab some more on a table, then run all around the obstacles where the vorcha had been concentrated looking for anything shining, climbing up on raised cover to grab the clips that were out of reach... whereas in ME1 I would've just killed them and moved on with the mission, now I have to waste time hunting for clips so that I don't run into the next battle with nothing but a futuristic club for a weapon.



How realistic is that? How many marines in a firefight do you see in the real world running over to fallen enemies after combat and scavenging their unused ammo before continuing the operation? None.

[Temper_Graniteskul]

It literally could be easier - it could go back to the 'potentially overheating weapon that doesn't need to be reloaded' that we had in the first game.



I've said it before in other places - I'm a crap shot. I have always been a crap shot, and will always be a crap shot. In point of fact, my shooter abilities are likely to get worse over time as I'm old enough that my 'twitch reflex' is pretty much gone. The new combat system has been a nightmare, sucking any enjoyment out of combat in favour of a system that is extraordinarily unforgiving to people like myself who require a lot of ammo to get the job done.



I'm extremely unappreciative of the idea that I should suck this up as a 'better' system when as far as I'm concerned it clearly is not. The respawning enemies at certain points make the game very unpleasant as I'm very likely to run out of ammo (thermal clips) before I've managed to get where I need to go - normally I'd take my time to clear the room before moving forward, but there are sections where now that's impossible because I can't thin the ranks fast enough.



Not to mention, why exactly should I be forced to switch weapons because I've run out of thermal clips for the one I can actually use? I managed to get through ME1 pretty much with a pistol alone; the way the assault rifle handled made my shooting even worse than usual. So how does it help me to force my hand by limiting ammo by weapon?



tl;dr: Reversion to the old system or a hybrid would be very helpful for people who, like me, aren't very good shots, or for people who view the combat as something that is not absolutely vital to the story. Forcing FPS elements like ammo pickup and weapon switching can be extremely awkward and unpleasant for some, even if others find them gratifying.

[obie191970]

JKoopman wrote...

How realistic is that? How many marines in a firefight do you see in the real world running over to fallen enemies after combat and scavenging their unused ammo before continuing the operation? None.

Just about as realistic as having infinite ammo - But, once you start comparing a Sci-Fi game set 150 years in the future to realism, you lose all credibility.

[LoweGear]

I play as an Infiltrator too, and yet have never had the problems of "limited ammo" and "scrounging" to worry about. Scrounging and foraging for ammo is there, but not to what I'd call a debilitating degree, because like others have mentioned the linear levels basically ensures you encounter the heatsinks that your enemies dropped, and there are also heatsinks placed all over a level in places where you'd be expected to encounter heavy resistance (like the Reaper IFF mission where there are oodles of heatsinks all over the place).
And of course, skill and common sense goes a long way towards the conservation of ammo, which encourages you to improve your aiming and shooting skills through the use of firing techniques like burst-fire. It also further encourages the use of biotic, tech and special powers to actually get around a level rather than spamming hundreds of rounds at once.

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...
 Reversion to the old system or a hybrid would be very helpful for people who, like me, aren't very good shots, or for people who view the combat as something that is not absolutely vital to the story.

If you don't view the combat as integral to the story, but are getting taxed by combat, then that's what the Casual and Normal difficulty settings are for: So that for people who'd like to get on with the combat quickly without a challenge can breeze right through without a problem. At Normal difficulty running out of ammo for your Assault Rifle or SMG is almost unimaginable.

[Temper_Graniteskul]

LoweGear wrote...

If you don't view the combat as integral to the story, but are getting taxed by combat, then that's what the Casual and Normal difficulty settings are for: So that for people who'd like to get on with the combat quickly without a challenge can breeze right through without a problem. At Normal difficulty running out of ammo for your Assault Rifle or SMG is almost unimaginable.

I'm playing on Casual already. When I say I'm a crap shot, I'm not exaggerating. Yet somehow, I managed to get by on Normal in ME1. To me, that's a damning statement on the changes to combat.

Modifié par Temper_Graniteskul, 11 février 2010 - 06:26 .

[Zhaocore]

Need answers..
Clips supposed to be universal. Fact. Written in codex.
Problem. Pistol out of heat clips. Bad, cant shoot.
Still have rifle heat clips, Dont want to use rifle. Need heat clips.
Enemies closing, cant use rifle heat clip for pistol? Does not compute!
Universal ammo lies! Could be. Oversight possible too.

Modifié par Silger, 11 février 2010 - 06:21 .

[Akimb0]

Erucolindo wrote...

This system isn't that much different from the one in ME1 cause every gun you had had a certian number of shots before it over heated. When it did, you couldn't use it for a bit. Now you get a lot more shots but the trade off is once you run out of clips, you have to find another mini-heat sync. The thermal clip basically becomes to hot to offset anymore heat and a new one is needed.

The system are opposites. One is infinite. One is finite. You get far less shots in ME2 than you could in ME1, which actually contradicts the codex description of why the system changed. It's supposed to have been based on Geth technology and once a weapon overheated, you just popped out the heat sink and put in a new one. The problem being, it was supposed to be ejected once the weapon overheated, because essentially the weapons work the same as in the first game. There should have been a heat bar for the weapons and if you overheated, you could pop out the heatsink for a new one. If it didn't overheat, there'd be no need.

The first system was also, technically,  a limited ammo system in terms of the material you used to fire. According to the codex entry, there was a block of mass in the gun. The gun sheers off a piece of that mass and projects it via mass effect fields. Eventually, you would need to replace that, yet we never had to. It was magically always there.

The idea is that the particle of metal you fire has its mass increased and it's speed adjusted for range, target and other variables. Regardless of that, the amount of metal is so small that you can have thousands of shots per block at least. There is a slight suspension of belief that you have vastly more than enough "block o' metal" to last an entire mission before reloading. Remember, the weapons in ME2 use the exact same system as the weapons in ME1, yet you never reload the "ammo block" in ME2 either.

I don't care how advanced a race is, they will never create a weapon that fire an infinite number of projectiles or an infinite number of energy bolts or beams.

See 'suspension of belief' above.

The new system is more realistic, and on normal there are plenty of clips lying around and dropped that you would have to be the worst shot in history to run out so much that you would need to demand an infinite ammo mod. If you are playing on insanity, well you have no excuse because insanity is designed to be extremely difficult. Part of that difficulty is obviously less ammo being dropped or laying about.

Probably shouldn't use the term "realistic" in a game with aliens, faster than light travel, AI races and mass effect fields. Also you seem to have misunderstood, the weapons in ME1 and ME2 both fire the same material, in the same fashion. Only the weapons heat dispersal has changed.

The new ammo requirement is part of the new weapons system as a whole, and needing to worry about reloading is part of making combat more tacticle. They won't change that.

The idea of a new ammo system I wouldn't mind so much, if it kept in sync with the ME world we know so far. The new heatsinks are excused as "learnt from Geth technology". Yet they're clearly an inferior weapon design.

Which is more useful?

1) A gun that fires forever as long as you don't overheat it (With the correct weapon mods, they never overheated.). In fact, even if you overheat it, in a few seconds you can shoot again.

2) A gun that has a finite ammo (heat sink) supply. Just 24 shots in the case of one of the Heavy pistols.

I'll take gun number one, you take number two. I know who will run out of ammo (heat sinks) first.

This is why I find the whole system contrived. It's clearly inferior to use heatsinks that you have to replace. It's just an excuse to make an "ammo" system. They then like to point out, that all the weapons use the same heat sinks. I mean, fire some heavy pistol shots. Fire some assault rifle shots. Then you find a heat sink on the floor. It works with either weapon. So why can't I, for example, take all my assault rifle heat sinks and use them for my Heavy Pistol? After all, they're supposed to be superior, because they're universal. However they're not universal and are also inferior.

I can overlook most of my issues with ME2. Just not this one. 

Silger wrote...

Need answers..
Clips supposed to be universal. Fact. Written in codex.
Problem. Pistol out of heat clips. Bad, cant shoot.
Still have rifle heat clips, Dont want to use rifle. Need heat clips.
Enemies closing, cant use rifle heat clip for pistol? Does not compute!
Universal ammo lies! Could be. Oversight possible too.

I even read it in my head with his voice.

Modifié par Akimb0, 11 février 2010 - 06:18 .

[obie191970]

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...

LoweGear wrote...

If you don't view the combat as integral to the story, but are getting taxed by combat, then that's what the Casual and Normal difficulty settings are for: So that for people who'd like to get on with the combat quickly without a challenge can breeze right through without a problem. At Normal difficulty running out of ammo for your Assault Rifle or SMG is almost unimaginable.

I'm playing on Casual already. When I say I'm a crap shot, I'm not exaggerating. Yet somehow, I managed to get by on Normal in ME1. To me, that's a damning statment on the changes to combat.

In ME1, you could run into any situation and just start blasting away without using your squad at all and in ME2 I think your squad can be a lot more helpful.  They all have pretty useful skills.  If you use them and the cover wisely, you can get through a lot of areas without having to fire your weapon much at all.  I'm sorry you're having a bad experience, but being an older gamer myself - I know where your coming from.

[AtreiyaN7]

Yes, I prefer the new ammo system because it forces you to be tactical. The Codex explanation bothers some people, and others just want to be able to spam their weapons to death like in the good old (non-tactical and unchallenging) ME1 days.

[Dethateer]

Silger wrote...

Need answers..
Clips supposed to be universal. Fact. Written in codex.
Problem. Pistol out of heat clips. Bad, cant shoot.
Still have rifle heat clips, Dont want to use rifle. Need heat clips.
Enemies closing, cant use rifle heat clip for pistol? Does not compute!
Universal ammo lies! Could be. Oversight possible too.

For the last time, that happens because otherwise you'd end up like in Deus Ex: Invisible War, when if you ran out of ammo for one weapon, you ran out for all. Which sucked, since in the last level, in particular, there were no ammo drops whatsoever.

[glen55]

I don't know about "realistic." Well, maybe it is realistic and I just can't tell because I don't understand it. But how you can pick up one clip and have it fill up your ammo numbers for all gun, and then fire the guns individually without using any of the ammo for the other guns is just a bit over my head.



Realistic or not, though, I like it. It adds a strategic element to gameplay by forcing me to rotate through my weapons.