179 réponses à ce sujet

[Darth Obvious]

Frotality wrote...

"just spamming endless slugs out of your AR like you could in ME1"

which is exactly what i do in ME2. 

Then you are doing it wrong.

[obie191970]

Dethateer wrote...

obie191970 wrote...

Dethateer wrote...

Obie, you do know a hybrid system was initally used in the game, right?

Are you talking in ME1?  Technically it was, but it never came into play.

No, I am talking ME2. Initially, heatsinks cooled down, and you can reenable it yourself.

Then no, I wasn't aware.  What do you mean initially?

[Dethateer]

It's unballanced, some weapons regen ammo much faster than others, and iirc only when you have them in-hand, plus you can't reload on-demand, you have to actually overload a sink.

[lukandroll]

No its not better. Its not realistic considering the timeline.



The ammo system needs to be hybrid, you could eject the heat sync, or wait till the weapon its cold again.

[dragonic9100]

technically you still have 1000s of bullets per clip, its just thermal clips are ejected to get rid of heat

[Frotality]

Darth Obvious wrote...

Frotality wrote...

"just spamming endless slugs out of your AR like you could in ME1"

which is exactly what i do in ME2. 

Then you are doing it wrong.

the point im making is that in comparison to single fire weapons, ARs allow you to spray bullets everywhere and still get full ammo back with 1 clip, 2 if you really missed alot. the imbalance of the current ammo system means i have as little reason to conserver AR shots as i did in ME1, even on insanity i get back every bullet fired at the end of a fight.

[Dethateer]

Except that the only weapon you can endlessly fire without ever fearing you'll run out of ammo is the Revenant. If you continously (and randomly) spray your AR, you'll run out of ammo long before the fight is over, especially on the higher diff levels, on which single enemies require whole clips.

[yoomazir]

oh yeah,looking for ammo is now the new loot in ME2...just bring back the system from ME1 tyvm.

[Darth Obvious]

Endless? Its not endless if you only have so much ammo and have to reload.



And then there is the fact that the slugs in ME2 actually feel like slugs. In ME1, for example, the pistol ammo was like throwing big blobs of imprecise energy downrange, which made it feel all kinds of Halo/kiddie game cheesy. In ME2 it feels like you are putting actual precise slugs downrange instead of imprecise blobs.



HUGE improvement.

[obie191970]

Dethateer wrote...

It's unballanced, some weapons regen ammo much faster than others, and iirc only when you have them in-hand, plus you can't reload on-demand, you have to actually overload a sink.

Ahhh.  I was unaware of that.  I can see the argument for both sides of this issue and there must be some solution out there that keeps the gameplay in balance and makes everyone happy - I know it's a pipe dream, but....  The elevators are the only thing I have seen removed from the first game that has yet to garner a thread complaining about it's removal.

[Dethateer]

Wrong:

http://social.biowar...5/index/1144234

*ahem*

As for the mod...

http://www.annakie.com/me/mods.htm

Be forwarned that it does not affect heavy weapons or DLC stuff, those have their own defining files, which you'll have to edit yourself.

[LoweGear]

Frotality wrote...

no other game has ever limited a sniper as much as ME2, it doesnt encourage anything tactical, it doesnt encourage using other weapons (why is this good again? what if we like the weapon we have?), it forces me to spray everything with an smg or spam powers instead of firing my incredibly restricted sniper or pistol.

How are snipers limited in ME2? Because of ammo?

I've tried playing as a sniper rifle only player in Mass Effect a few times, and I find it incredibly tedious and frustrating: the excessive wobble of the Sniper Rifle meant that even with a steady hand you could hardly hit anything reasonably, which combined with the Sniper Rifle's low damage meant that you required several shots to kill anything. It's mitigated a bit by Assassination, but it still made the Sniper Rifle an unappealing affair in ME1, and I'm the type of person who likes sniper rifles.

In ME2, Sniper Rifles are actually useful because of

1. Locational Damage, which allows headshots which deal extra damage to enemies, which Snipers are able to exploit fully
2. No scope wobble, which mean increased ease of aim
3. Overall enhanced bullet damage, which meant a single shot now deals way more damage than in ME1, and hence requires less shots to kill enemies

In fact, even using just the initial Mantis Sniper Rifle you can kill most enemies with a single headshot, provided they don't have Barriers or Armor, or anything not Krogan.

As an Infiltrator, I've used and been more successful wth Sniper Rifles in ME2 than I have in ME2, which allows me to actually keep at a distance. Combined with abilities like the Tactical Cloak, getting idea positions from which to snipe enemies from is a breeze compared to ME1.

Also, in my experience trying to simply spray and pray in ME2 doesn't work too well: While I did say that aiming in ME2 is easier, the weapons all have various offsets to compensate: the Avenger AR and the Tempest SMG both have incredible bullet rise and wide groupings that makes them inadequate at long-range combat, and even in short range just spamming your SMG with no fire discipline is a waste of ammo likely to get you killed quickly.

Given the overall higher DPS of weapons in ME2 + improved accuracy for certain weapons, having an unlimited ammo system for the current state of the weapons would be like handing the endgame on a silver platter to you: it'd be no fun at all. Well, there is a different sort of fun at having unlimited ammunition (I enjoyed the mechanic in Resident Evil games for instance - but there, you had to EARN the right to have unlimited ammo), but as a core gameplay mechanic, if I had to to choose between limited ammo, high damage weapons over unlimited ammo, low damage weapons, I'll take the former.

Modifié par LoweGear, 11 février 2010 - 09:28 .

[Dethateer]

I'd like to point out, in the defense of ME2's sniper rifles, that they actually cause immense amounts of damage, which more than make up for their low ammo capacity.

[obie191970]

Dethateer wrote...

Wrong:
http://social.biowar...5/index/1144234
*ahem*

*weeps for humanity.  Perhaps Cerberus has a point....

[Dethateer]

Meh, they care too little about the other species for me to care about them.

[SolitonMan]

I actually found the overheating mechanic in ME1 a refreshing change from all the ammo-scarce war games I'd been playing. I have no problem having infinite ammo with appropriate upgrades, but then I'm not looking for "realism" in terms of the resources available to a character in a game. When I want that type of realism, I quit playing games and just, ya know, live my life.



I will admit, however, that while I was unhappy to hear that ME2 would revert to an ammo-based system for weapons, in practice it doesn't place that much of a burden on you, and it does encourage more skillful use of shots, thus improving player talent (whether we want it to or not!).



I agree with others that both ammo and medigel should be fully replenished when you return to the Normandy. ESPECIALLY for heavy weapons - I WANT to use them, but they're so ammo-nerfed that I end up conserving them for the "big" bad guys - and then never use them.

[King_Rob]

I got tired of playing "find the ammo" so I just modded my game to give me unlimited sniper rifle ammo.



I also thought the ammo mechanic of ME1 was a refreshing change from the norm in shooter type games. Granted, certain mixtures of skills and mods gave unlimited firing on some weapons, but that's just a design flaw of the game that needed to be tweaked IMO.



The way it's implemented doesn't even make sense. When I pick up one cooling rod, it increases the shot count in all of my guns. I'm presuming that it doesn't split into twos threes or fours so they're saying it universally fits the guns. The issue I have is that if it's universal, everytime I fire my sniper rifle once, it should take a "clip" worth of ammo from my other guns.

[Terminus Pi]

Nothing against the new system, but I wish they came up with a more believable system that doesn't sound like the ammo system of every other FPS out there.

If the excuse is "the gun gets too hot and needs thermal clips to cool down" then they should have come up with a solution that actually takes heat into consideration, instead of a solution that looks more like you're adding bullets to your gun's magazine. I can understand how a portable heatsink can sustain, for example, 20 consecutive shots before getting too hot and needing to be replaced. But I can't understand how me firing 2 shots now will actually reduce my firing capacity to 18 if I use that gun again after half an hour. The gun doesn't cool down during that period? The heat stays trapped? What a ridiculous cooling system.

They may call it whatever they want, but a fact is a fact - THERMAL CLIPS ARE EFFECTIVELY AMMUNITION CLIPS. Because of the way they were implemented in the game.

[Irenicusss]

Well from all ammo/thermal clips topics, not a single freakin' person had read the codex, the lore about this. I won't tell you, just hit the exe file load a save and read the codex entry...for Tali's sake It is well explained why thermal clips were made, but it still it has some flaws implementing it in the game itself. A hybrid version of both ME's ammo systems is the best choise for ME3 or some future updates. The ammo system, well the mass effect idea, the eezo, the techs and so on created with the first game was original and the thing that separated the game from the pile of same old games. The new ammo system made the game more dynamic, no doubt about that but a bit not loggical. Well I understand the logic of needing to produce more shots for less time with no waiting to cool down, but thermal clips acting like bullet ammo is low class implementation for the giants Bioware are !

[apollyon144]

SolitonMan wrote...

I actually found the overheating mechanic in ME1 a refreshing change from all the ammo-scarce war games I'd been playing. I have no problem having infinite ammo with appropriate upgrades, but then I'm not looking for "realism" in terms of the resources available to a character in a game. When I want that type of realism, I quit playing games and just, ya know, live my life.

I agree with this that is the whole point i believe what a lot of people think is this, mass effect is a game that broke almost every single mold, in gamplay, in mechanics and in storyline, It borowed a lot from other genres and games, but it was its on entity. I feel now that to gain popularity or credit they have switched to copy gears of war or halo, when they didn't need that. 90% of  the changes in me2 are amazing and well done, however the ammo issue is a glaring problem.

It works, you can def play the game and its fun however i just feel that bioware can do better then that.

that being said i can't wait to play me3!

[Terminus Pi]

Irenicusss wrote...

...read the codex entry...for Tali's sake

I DID read the codex, that's why I wrote what I did in my post. What is written in the codex and the way thermal clips actually work are two completely different things.
I guess Bioware devs should have read the codex when they implemented gun mechanics. <_<

[Kroniker81]

No. Simply no the 'new' system is stupid and it is far from being new. It is the most overused and boring mechanic in game history.

[Irenicusss]

Terminus Pi my bad. Guess we speak the same things here, but you are right. I'm starting to think that they made ME2 more for the casual nerds that play action crap than the real many fans of ME1. I mean... all the ideas in the game, the whole galaxy is the new Lucas story of our generation, well it could be. And the ammo "thermal bullet" system made it... ordinary which it isn't. I enjoy ME2, hell... I can't play anything else now 'cause it seems nothing compared to ME2 even with it flaws but...the ammo and biotics nerfing is a thing needs correction.

[Terminus Pi]

Oh, don't get me started on biotics. That's why I went for Incinerate/Inferno Grenade

[EvilChani]

Big_Stupid_Jelly wrote...

Dethateer wrote...

Which was a huge problem in the beginning, because snipers, for example wobbled around, and you had to wait for the perfect moment to press the trigger, which requires faster reflexes than this. Incidentally, I usually failed at that. My reflexes suck.

I have to agree with you about the Sniper Rifle, but then again it didn't require a 'baby and bathwater' approach to it either.

I don't understand the problem with the sniper rifle in ME1. In the beginning, when you had no skill using it, it made sense for it to wobble around. Once you get points in the skill, it got much easier. By the end, when I had maxed the ability, I could use the sniper rifle not just to snipe - easily and accurately - but I used it as a close range weapon and shot my enemies in the face, to their demise. That, really, is one reason I have complained about the combat in ME2. In ME1, Shep's shooting abilities were largely on her (or him); in ME2, it's all about the player. I prefer the former to the latter and, since this is supposed to be a RPG, then the playable character's abilities should definitely depend more on her/his skill rather than the player's abilities with a controller or keyboard.