114 réponses à ce sujet

[Gold Dragon]

ervanol wrote...

Another thing I do not understand is why Soris, your companion in the City Elf origin, isn't recruited. He fights alongside you your way into the castle. I think in my game he even made the killing blow to Vaughan, yet he isn't good enough for the Grey Wardens and takes the heat of the crimes you have committed together with him.

One of the Options that you can tell the Guards is that YOU (the PC) did it alone.  Since you step forward, and no one will counter your statement (The Elder even understands), Soris doesn't get arrested.

You DO get Betrayed by Eva (I think that's her name, she's the surly elf) if you try to keep quiet, however.  I imagine that she gets evicted by the Elder after you depart under those circumstances, otherwise is taken by the Tevinters.

[fchopin]

elearon1 wrote...

Okay, you know, people need to get a grip on the fact that not all endings are happy, not all diseases can be cured, not all zealots are honest. Becoming a Warden is a death sentence, but it is better than seeing the world overcome by darkspawn - you are not given a choice because to the Wardens there is no such thing ... when the darkspawn come you either die fighting or you die running ... the idea of those in power making life and death decisions for those beneath them is not new.

I am not asking for a good ending but a logical one, everyone will die in the end.
 
If i was king in the game and i knew about the wardens i would probably wipe out the wardens first so there would be no new monsters and after the darkspawn.

[Nonvita]

fchopin wrote...

elearon1 wrote...

Okay, you know, people need to get a grip on the fact that not all endings are happy, not all diseases can be cured, not all zealots are honest. Becoming a Warden is a death sentence, but it is better than seeing the world overcome by darkspawn - you are not given a choice because to the Wardens there is no such thing ... when the darkspawn come you either die fighting or you die running ... the idea of those in power making life and death decisions for those beneath them is not new.

I am not asking for a good ending but a logical one, everyone will die in the end.
 
If i was king in the game and i knew about the wardens i would probably wipe out the wardens first so there would be no new monsters and after the darkspawn.

The Grey Wardens aren't the ones becoming the darkspawn. Even if some do, they are not that many. Most die in battle or make sure they are killed fighting darkspawn in the Deep Roads. Most of the darkspawn come from the Broodmothers... So how on earth would it be good to wipe out the only people who can actually defeat the archdemons? More than that, the only people who can stand the taint of darkspawn blood... You'd rather the darkspawn continue to infect and kill the masses, rather than only those willing to become Grey Wardens?...

[fchopin]

Nonvita wrote...

The Grey Wardens aren't the ones becoming the darkspawn. Even if some do, they are not that many. Most die in battle or make sure they are killed fighting darkspawn in the Deep Roads. Most of the darkspawn come from the Broodmothers... So how on earth would it be good to wipe out the only people who can actually defeat the archdemons? More than that, the only people who can stand the taint of darkspawn blood... You'd rather the darkspawn continue to infect and kill the masses, rather than only those willing to become Grey Wardens?...

According to some people if the pc is female there is a chance she could become a broodmother

[Nonvita]

fchopin wrote...

According to some people if the pc is female there is a chance she could become a broodmother

And there are very few female Grey Wardens, as commented on several times. Grey Wardens going to the Deep Roads is not what's making all the darkspawn. I highly doubt the Grey Wardens contribute to a fraction of the darkspawn. The darkspawn existed well before the GWs, in very large numbers. Meanwhile the GWs are basically the only hope of actually defeating the darkspawn. Goodness knows the dwarves are losing that battle. So there are plenty of reasons why someone would become a GW even knowing what the Joining entails, because the GWs are going to do way more to stop the blights than contribute to them. So your argument falls flat.

As for Jory, he likely had more confidence when he was back in his element and felt comfortable. His problem was that he already couldn't stand being away from home, which then led to becoming completely gutless at the Joining. He may have been a good fighter when at home, but as far as my characters are concerned he's "not very smart."

[fchopin]

Nonvita wrote...

fchopin wrote...

According to some people if the pc is female there is a chance she could become a broodmother

And there are very few female Grey Wardens, as commented on several times. Grey Wardens going to the Deep Roads is not what's making all the darkspawn. I highly doubt the Grey Wardens contribute to a fraction of the darkspawn. The darkspawn existed well before the GWs, in very large numbers. Meanwhile the GWs are basically the only hope of actually defeating the darkspawn. Goodness knows the dwarves are losing that battle. So there are plenty of reasons why someone would become a GW even knowing what the Joining entails, because the GWs are going to do way more to stop the blights than contribute to them. So your argument falls flat.

As for Jory, he likely had more confidence when he was back in his element and felt comfortable. His problem was that he already couldn't stand being away from home, which then led to becoming completely gutless at the Joining. He may have been a good fighter when at home, but as far as my characters are concerned he's "not very smart."

Edit: My argument falls flat for you but not for me.

If i was king i would sooner or later would wipe all the wardens and make sure none would be left, or find a cure to stop this disease.
 
But anyone infected would be put to death immediately. Not a nice thing to do i know but how else are you going to stop this disease.
 
As for Jory i would probably do the same thing if i found myself in the same spot, and it has nothing to do with being afraid

Modifié par fchopin, 11 février 2010 - 10:57 .

[Sarielle]

fchopin wrote...

Edit: My argument falls flat for you but not for me.

If i was king i would sooner or later would wipe all the wardens and make sure none would be left, or find a cure to stop this disease.
 
But anyone infected would be put to death immediately. Not a nice thing to do i know but how else are you going to stop this disease.

Then it's a damn good think you aren't king in the Dragon Age universe. :B

You make it sound like "finding a cure" is just something nobody's bothered to think of/try before. You'd also be killing the only people who could end a blight. The fact that your companions don't die of the taint/fall ill is strictly a game mechanics flaw, nothing more.

Wardens aren't diseased in the sense that they could just spontaneously become a ghoul any second. For a long time (30 years-ish) they're the master of the taint (-middleschool giggle-) and perfectly "safe" to be around.

Then there's the whole fact that there are always darkspawn around, and now you have no one to fight them who more or less WON'T immediatley sicken/become a ghoul...

[fchopin]

Well this is a game so it doesn’t have to make perfect sense, and it is a great game so let’s just leave it as is for now.

[Sylvius the Mad]

fchopin wrote...

If i was king in the game and i knew about the wardens i would probably wipe out the wardens first so there would be no new monsters and after the darkspawn.

But the king doesn't know that about the Wardens.  NO ONE knows that about the Wardens except for the Wardens.  And they keep it secret.

Not one person in history has willingly chosen to become a Warden knowing what that entails.  Every single one of them got snookered into it.  The PC, Alistair, Duncan, Sofia Dryden - every last one.  Only the first Wardens didn't, and they probably didn't know what the consequences were either because no one had ever done it before.

[Nonvita]

Sarielle wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Edit: My argument falls flat for you but not for me.

If i was king i would sooner or later would wipe all the wardens and make sure none would be left, or find a cure to stop this disease.
 
But anyone infected would be put to death immediately. Not a nice thing to do i know but how else are you going to stop this disease.

Then it's a damn good think you aren't king in the Dragon Age universe. :B

You make it sound like "finding a cure" is just something nobody's bothered to think of/try before. You'd also be killing the only people who could end a blight. The fact that your companions don't die of the taint/fall ill is strictly a game mechanics flaw, nothing more.

Wardens aren't diseased in the sense that they could just spontaneously become a ghoul any second. For a long time (30 years-ish) they're the master of the taint (-middleschool giggle-) and perfectly "safe" to be around.

Then there's the whole fact that there are always darkspawn around, and now you have no one to fight them who more or less WON'T immediatley sicken/become a ghoul...

QFT.

fchopin I think you missed the part where normal people exposed to the darkspawn taint are killed or turned. The magic involved in the Joining makes it so Grey Wardens don't just turn into darkspawn. They are the only ones resistant to the taint, so they easily make the best fighters against hordes of darkspawn. The darkspawn would not go away if you just destroyed all the Grey Wardens; instead, they'd multiply since fewer people would be capable of fighting them. And you'd have way more people getting killed or turned because they are not Grey Wardens. Killing off the Grey Wardens would essentially mean destroying the lands- as much as Loghain likes to think GWs aren't necessary, they are.

At least for now. If that changes, we'll see. But as for your reasoning, it is incredibly flawed and if you were leader of Ferelden it would have been destroyed. I really don't understand how you could play through the game and come to your conclusion...

[fchopin]

Nonvita wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Edit: My argument falls flat for you but not for me.

If i was king i would sooner or later would wipe all the wardens and make sure none would be left, or find a cure to stop this disease.
 
But anyone infected would be put to death immediately. Not a nice thing to do i know but how else are you going to stop this disease.

Then it's a damn good think you aren't king in the Dragon Age universe. :B

You make it sound like "finding a cure" is just something nobody's bothered to think of/try before. You'd also be killing the only people who could end a blight. The fact that your companions don't die of the taint/fall ill is strictly a game mechanics flaw, nothing more.

Wardens aren't diseased in the sense that they could just spontaneously become a ghoul any second. For a long time (30 years-ish) they're the master of the taint (-middleschool giggle-) and perfectly "safe" to be around.

Then there's the whole fact that there are always darkspawn around, and now you have no one to fight them who more or less WON'T immediatley sicken/become a ghoul...

QFT.

fchopin I think you missed the part where normal people exposed to the darkspawn taint are killed or turned. The magic involved in the Joining makes it so Grey Wardens don't just turn into darkspawn. They are the only ones resistant to the taint, so they easily make the best fighters against hordes of darkspawn. The darkspawn would not go away if you just destroyed all the Grey Wardens; instead, they'd multiply since fewer people would be capable of fighting them. And you'd have way more people getting killed or turned because they are not Grey Wardens. Killing off the Grey Wardens would essentially mean destroying the lands- as much as Loghain likes to think GWs aren't necessary, they are.

At least for now. If that changes, we'll see. But as for your reasoning, it is incredibly flawed and if you were leader of Ferelden it would have been destroyed. I really don't understand how you could play through the game and come to your conclusion...

I did not miss that i just avoided the blood infection, just that would make the first fight with the king a bit silly don’t you think, even if the king wins everyone will probably be infected.
 
That is why i invented a cure. If there is no cure then there is no solution to the darkspawn.
 
But let’s see what bioware come up with in the expansion.

[guytza]

fchopin wrote...

Edit: My argument falls flat for you but not for me.

If i was king i would sooner or later would wipe all the wardens and make sure none would be left, or find a cure to stop this disease.
 
But anyone infected would be put to death immediately. Not a nice thing to do i know but how else are you going to stop this disease.
 
As for Jory i would probably do the same thing if i found myself in the same spot, and it has nothing to do with being afraid

I think your misunderstanding some of the details, Darkspawn arent like werewolves or vampires where they turn men into them. Its more like fighting a plague of insects. They breed and spawn their own at a startling rate. It's not a disease, its an infestation. When they take people away, they use them either for meat or for breeding purposes (see: Broodmother). Destroying darkspawn entirely would be more like fumigating a house than fighting an infectious disease but given their strength, numbers, and the scope of the deep roads, gassing the entire lot of them isn't really feasible.

Grey Wardens are a specialized unit capable of fighting and destroying darkspawn like no others, they risk their lives and are granted the power to sense darkspawn, listen in on their plans and can warn of invasions or blights before its too late. If you still want to consider the darkspawn a disease, then Grey wardens would be the guys who were given a vaccine or perhaps the ones running around in haz-mat suits. Regardless, they dont create darkspawn, they destroy darkspawn and due to their unique existance are the only known way to kill an archdemon and end a blight.

So to kill all the grey wardens would result in you as king:
A) not knowing when a blight was forming
not knowing where they are coming from or where the archdemon is.
C) not having soldiers that are immune to the poison the darkspawn use.
D) in the event of a blight, having no way to end the blight.

All in all, not a good position to be in.

[Sarielle]

fchopin wrote...
I did not miss that i just avoided the blood infection, just that would make the first fight with the king a bit silly don’t you think, even if the king wins everyone will probably be infected.
 
That is why i invented a cure. If there is no cure then there is no solution to the darkspawn.
 
But let’s see what bioware come up with in the expansion.

What do you mean you "invented a cure." Are you talking for the sake of argument?

Again...I'm sure if the Grey Wardens thought a cure was possible, they'd have looked for one. Avernus has spent hundreds of years trying, and he still hasn't managed.

The "solution" to the Darkspawn are the Grey Wardens. Who die before turning, 30 years or so after they join. EDIT: And to clarify, most people flat out die from Darkspawn blood. It's more a poison, than a disease.

If bioware magically makes up a cure in Awakenings, it's going to cheapen everything that's led up to it.

Modifié par Sarielle, 11 février 2010 - 11:54 .

[fchopin]

If by fighting darkspawn kills or infects normal people then there is no way to win unless there are only a few of them.



The wardens are not the solution as there are only a few of them so they need to use ordinary soldiers, and by doing this the soldiers are infected, it is a loop without end.



The only answer is for somekind of cure.

[Sarielle]

fchopin wrote...

If by fighting darkspawn kills or infects normal people then there is no way to win unless there are only a few of them.

The wardens are not the solution as there are only a few of them so they need to use ordinary soldiers, and by doing this the soldiers are infected, it is a loop without end.

The only answer is for somekind of cure.

It's been working for centures.

Most people do NOT become darkspawn (in fact, nobody actually becomes darkspawn) after getting poisoned. They die. Grey Wardens are an exception, because of the joining; others become ghouls (which are still not darkspawn, but they are mad and do sense the archdemon like the Wardens do) by eating the flesh.

I think maybe you just don't understand, lore-wise, how it works?

[Nonvita]

fchopin wrote...

If by fighting darkspawn kills or infects normal people then there is no way to win unless there are only a few of them.

The wardens are not the solution as there are only a few of them so they need to use ordinary soldiers, and by doing this the soldiers are infected, it is a loop without end.

The only answer is for somekind of cure.

By golly I think she's got it!

Until the Grey Wardens defeat the Archdemon, it basically is a loop with no end. (For the dwarves it always is one.) The first blight didn't end until they finally figured out how to defeat the Archdemon, which involved creating the process to become Grey Wardens. Without Grey Wardens, the blights thus far never would have been ended. You can imagine a magical cure in your mind, but that doesn't mean it actually exists in the game world.

Now maybe one will emerge during the series, but if it does I'm betting it's not going to be an easy answer, and it will still involve making sacrifices. Goodness knows the attempts at finding cures so far have not exactly been humanitarian...

[fchopin]

You say it has been working for centuries but the darkspawn are still with us so how can it be working



The darkspawn have to be eliminated for ever so they can not come back.



Maybe the cure is Morrigan’s devil child.

[Sarielle]

fchopin wrote...

You say it has been working for centuries but the darkspawn are still with us so how can it be working

The darkspawn have to be eliminated for ever so they can not come back.

Maybe the cure is Morrigan’s devil child.

A noble goal, but killing the Grey Wardens is the absolute worst way to go about it.

[fchopin]

well can you come up with a better solution?

[Templar Vilmon]

I personally think Jory is a sympathetic character. He's a strong warrior who can handle himself on the battlefield, but he's also very rigid in his thinking and doesn't do well with surprises.



It's easy to write Jory off as a big baby unless you put yourself in his shoes. First of all, he's sent out into the Kocari Wilds and what's the first thing he encounters? A dying soldier from a much larger patrol party. So right off the bat he must be thinking - wow, this guy was probably with a group of several dozen fighters and they got ROFLstomped. What chance does our little band have? Any soldier with half a brain would start to wonder if he was on a suicide mission at that point.



Then, he watches another Warden candidate die an agonizing death in front of him. Despite years of training and probably combat experience, Jory is not prepared for this. Think about it - how many Special Forces or Navy Seal recruits wouldn't freak out if they were told they had to drink Strychnine as a final test? Probably more than a few.



If Duncan made a mistake in recruiting Jory, it was to recruit a man who had a "normal" life back home. Compare this with the main character, who joined the Grey Wardens out of desperation.

[Sarielle]

fchopin wrote...

well can you come up with a better solution?

Yes. NOT killing the people who don't die from the darkspawn poison (IE, the Grey Wardens)?

[fchopin]

Sarielle wrote...

fchopin wrote...

well can you come up with a better solution?

Yes. NOT killing the people who don't die from the darkspawn poison (IE, the Grey Wardens)?

That’s no solution i am sorry to say.

[Sylvius the Mad]

fchopin wrote...

well can you come up with a better solution?

That's appallingly bad reasoning.

That we don't have a better answer than yours is not evidence that your answer is good.  Your answer is terrible, and we don't have a better one because there isn't an answer.

[fchopin]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

fchopin wrote...

well can you come up with a better solution?

That's appallingly bad reasoning.

That we don't have a better answer than yours is not evidence that your answer is good.  Your answer is terrible, and we don't have a better one because there isn't an answer.

No answer, so we are playing a game with no answers?
 
What is wrong with killing, be it wardens or darkspawn, my rogue likes action.