222 réponses à ce sujet

[xXDWARFAREXx]

Pfft, Gaider. I'd much rather have a forum where the devs never post and I feel like they don't give a damn about any input, or the community whatsoever. Just a nice, subliminal corporate "Shut the hell up and give us your money and we'll put out another game in a couple years, maybe." Oh, wait, that sounds terrible.



Yeah, keep on truckin', Gaider!

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Developers posting and responding to people on these forums is the reason linger. Because you get news from the horses mouth and clarification.



Gaider a nuisance? I think not. Especially given the number of adolescent retards that seem to enjoy spouting off crap and prefer to do their talking through their rectums as opposed to using their braincells. Sometimes, said people really need to be reminded that they really are morons. In a very diplomatic, polite way.



Who knows. It might encourage them to use the other side of their digestive tract to speak.



So I hope the developers will continue being "nuisances". These boards would not be worth visiting if they didn't.

[LaztRezort]

A nuisance, IMO, would be someone who posts with (perceived, implied or declared) authority, and spouts off misinformation or brain-numbing nonsense.  I see a lot more of this from the community than from David.  In fact, all of the dev posts here seem to be informative, or at least offer a glimpse into the minds of the professionals whose business is to create games.

Disagree with him?  Find his posts "snarky"?

Who cares --  it's better than the PR spam you get almost everywhere else.  Like someone else said earlier in the thread, he is not our waiter.  (sorry, too lazy to go back and find the quote)

The community should feel grateful for the feedback (feed-feedback?) it gets from developers.

And by the general tone of this thread, it seems the majority does.

[DraconisCombine]

Whats that?Developers responding to their community?Oh my gosh the horror!-

Good for Gaider.Shame on some MMOs who shall remain nameless.Its fun watching devs shoot down elements of the community who are - shall we say disruptive? to the say the least.

[Xandurpein]

There are two reasons why people post opinions on this forum. Either for a genuine wish to be party to a debate that can shed new light on things in the game so we can all learn, or to simply state their own opinions as facts and igonre or abuse whoever thinks differently.
I doubt anyone in the first category would have any problems with a developer with inside knowledge explaining things even if it happens to go counter to what they thought up until then.
If mr Gaider at the same time devotes some of his energy to use his authority and try and rebuke the more disruptive elements on the forum, all I can say is good job!
The title "David Gaider vs the Community" is in itself very persumptious, as it implies that those few who take offense at mr Gaiders posts, speak for the majority. To me it seems that the large majority of the community welcomes mr Gaiders input. Cheers and keep up the good work Gaider!

Modifié par Xandurpein, 14 février 2010 - 11:05 .

[lisakover]

David stop posting on the forums and start writing a third DA novel =D

[ggRechen]

I say: David Gaider ftw! I love how he and other Bio-guys get in touch with us personally and do not hesitate to speak their mind openly and clearly.

I dislike the usual slick, 'professional' approach to community-interaction that some other companies show. Always be perfectly over-polite, never say anything binding, rather ignore complaints than getting involved.



Everyone who speaks his mind openly and stands by his statements will receive both love and hate.

So David, please keep it up and stay in touch. Just because the 'haters' are sometimes louder, doesn't mean they are the majority.

[Kalfear]

ggRechen wrote...

I say: David Gaider ftw! I love how he and other Bio-guys get in touch with us personally and do not hesitate to speak their mind openly and clearly.
I dislike the usual slick, 'professional' approach to community-interaction that some other companies show. Always be perfectly over-polite, never say anything binding, rather ignore complaints than getting involved.

Everyone who speaks his mind openly and stands by his statements will receive both love and hate.
So David, please keep it up and stay in touch. Just because the 'haters' are sometimes louder, doesn't mean they are the majority.

Yup, I respect those that speak their mind honestly.
I dont respect those that say company lines or make up nonsence statements.

Might not always agree with gaider but at least he tells us how he sees it.
Unlike others the will go unnamed that flat out lied to get more sales for their products.

If you removing something or not having something in your game, straight out say so and why, dont **** foot around making it sound like "maybe its there"

Oh and the haters are definately the majority for ME2 comments. Definately the minority for DA:O (unless talking DLC)

Modifié par Kalfear, 16 février 2010 - 08:00 .

[David Gaider]

Kalfear wrote...
If you removing something or not having something in your game, straight out say so and why, dont **** foot around making it sound like "maybe its there"

I'll just point out that none of us here are at liberty to discuss elements of any project until they are OK'd by the powers that be, who will sometimes want to figure out how to say something. Information release on games is done gradually, and sometimes we need to be careful with it because answering questions can just cause more questions -- so just because someone can ask about a project on these forums does not mean we are being deceptive by not being able to immediately answer.

I tend to simply avoid such discussions altogether, but those who work in a more official capacity have to address them as best they can.

Modifié par David Gaider, 16 février 2010 - 08:13 .

[Kalfear]

David Gaider wrote...

Kalfear wrote...
If you removing something or not having something in your game, straight out say so and why, dont **** foot around making it sound like "maybe its there"

I'll just point out that none of us here are at liberty to discuss elements of any project until they are OK'd by the powers that be, who will sometimes want to figure out how to say something. Information release on games is done gradually, and sometimes we need to be careful with it because answering questions can just cause more questions -- so just because someone can ask about a project on these forums does not mean we are being deceptive by not being able to immediately answer.

I tend to simply avoid such discussions altogether, but those who work in a more official capacity have to address them as best they can.

I understand the thought process and company guidelines behind it david, I just dont agree with it (probably why I sucked so bad playing the corperate ladder game).

To me, honestly is always the best policy.

Ill use ME2 as a example. If they had come straight out and said we have diminished the RPG elements greatly for what we feel is better gameplay, I would have still probably bought game and tried it and been alot less disappointed as I would have known what I was getting.
Instead they said everything we loved from ME1 is still there, and that simply wasnt true on any level and (barring major changes for ME3) has cost them a future customer in that franchise.

I get the corperate identity thing but for me (and I would guess a great many people) just be honest. You can do no worng just being honest and upfront.

Actually heres a better example as I know you cant comment on ME2.

Awakenings, now im not thrilled about no romances and all that but you came out and told me.
I still plan to buy Awakenings and you know what I personally will never compain about regarding that game?
No romances. Because you were upfront and honest.
If you instead had taken the route used for nudity in DA:O where different sources hinted and teased at there being nudity (Romance in this case) then id be upset as it was falsely used to raise expectations.

hehe, mommas old advice of "honesty the best defence" stays true to this day!
Probably why I get so passionate about some posting threads, I see others twisting words and meanings to try and get their own version out and it drives me nuts. Just be honest!

Modifié par Kalfear, 16 février 2010 - 08:26 .

[David Gaider]

Sure, but if you're going to point at me and say you appreciate that I "tell it like it is" but that others are "dishonest" then you also have to respect the fact that I am simply not going to discuss things I'm not allowed to talk about. I'm no more "honest" than anyone else who comes here in an official capacity -- they're simply obligated to discuss things that I don't have to. So while I appreciate the thumbs-up, it certainly isn't because I'm discussing things that otherwise wouldn't get discussed.

[Sabriana]

I wish I had millions and millions to throw at you, David. I also wish you girls and guys wound never had to join up with a certain publisher, I have such bad memories about that. I appreciate yours and all the others who made a great game. However, the practices to milk the customers for all they are worth is saddening.

We might just be a niche market, but we are loyal. Until we realize that we are taken for a ride. Not by you. or anyone we so fondly remember, but by the urge to milk us for whatever you can get out of us. That's not what we remember. Be as kind to us, as we are loyal to you. I've already done the unthinkable, I won't buy any DLC. Because it's not what it should be. WK was alright, RoO is terrible., in my (personal opinion).



The people who will buy anything with BioWare on it are in multitude on these forums. The silent majority is not. How much easier is it to just shrug it off and move on to another game? It's so easy to say we made X amount of money. It's so hard to say we could've made X + X amount of money? I guess I just don't want BioWare to die just as Maxis an Westwood, and many others. I would be so very sad.

[David Gaider]

Sabriana wrote...
I wish I had millions and millions to throw at you, David. I also wish you girls and guys wound never had to join up with a certain publisher, I have such bad memories about that. I appreciate yours and all the others who made a great game. However, the practices to milk the customers for all they are worth is saddening.
We might just be a niche market, but we are loyal. Until we realize that we are taken for a ride. Not by you. or anyone we so fondly remember, but by the urge to milk us for whatever you can get out of us. That's not what we remember. Be as kind to us, as we are loyal to you. I've already done the unthinkable, I won't buy any DLC. Because it's not what it should be. WK was alright, RoO is terrible., in my (personal opinion).

The people who will buy anything with BioWare on it are in multitude on these forums. The silent majority is not. How much easier is it to just shrug it off and move on to another game? It's so easy to say we made X amount of money. It's so hard to say we could've made X + X amount of money? I guess I just don't want BioWare to die just as Maxis an Westwood, and many others. I would be so very sad.

Is there a reason you're addressing this to me? I have nothing to do with DLC.

And, to be honest, if your supposition is that it's the "multitude on these forums" that are buying it and the silent majority that are not I think you you have it backwards. If the silent majority was not interested in DLC then it wouldn't sell and it wouldn't be made. What we have on these forums is a very vocal minority that oppose the idea of DLC being made for anybody because they believe everybody should only want more extensive content and that that's all we should be spending our time on. I get it, but I'm not sure why these people also believe they are speaking on behalf of others any more than the people in favor are. At the end of the day it's your right to decide what's worth your purchase and what isn't -- as it is theirs -- and the sales will dictate whether we as a company decide to move forward with this type of content. As it should be, if you ask me. Which you are.

[kyles3]

it was probably addressed to you because (whether or not you have the answers people are looking for) nobody else at bioware seems to be listening.

[soteria]

I understand the thought process and company guidelines behind it david, I just dont agree with it (probably why I sucked so bad playing the corperate ladder game).



To me, honestly is always the best policy.

I'm guessing you also mean "full disclosure" from the way you're saying that. Although as a player I kinda agree that I'd prefer they just gave us the information, I've seen from other games (notably WoW) that giving out details about upcoming changes is a bad idea. I remember Blizzard tried being more open with their plans for future changes at one point, and it ended up blowing up on them. Despite multiple caveats about the information being subject to change, when it did change (they were unable to implement some changes on the schedule they wanted to for technical reasons), there was a huge uproar.



Sure, intelligent members of the community understood that things happen and Blizzard wasn't maliciously yanking our chain or trying to trick the community, the powers that be decided that from a risk/reward standpoint giving the community more information just wasn't worth it. A company like Bioware or Blizzard has very little incentive to going into details on upcoming projects, and at least one very big reason not to--the backlash if they're unable to deliver content or a feature as "promised." From their POV it's best to just take the safe path and be vague about future changes (like patches) until they're here.

[David Gaider]

kyles3 wrote...
it was probably addressed to you because (whether or not you have the answers people are looking for) nobody else at bioware seems to be listening.

If by "listening" you mean "doing what I personally want", then I suppose you're correct. If by "listening" you mean "willing to come here and engage in a debate about it", then you're also correct -- the matter isn't up for debate. If, however, by "listening" you mean "aware of how some community members feel", then you're wrong. That's the point of the forums, to allow people to express their opinions, and we'll always take them into consideration when we can.

Modifié par David Gaider, 16 février 2010 - 11:21 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

David Gaider wrote...

So while I appreciate the thumbs-up, it certainly isn't because I'm discussing things that otherwise wouldn't get discussed.

During development, you (and Mary, Sheryl, and Georg) would routinely discuss minutia that were never going anywhere near a press release.  There were long discussions about inventory management (which you mostly avoided), camera control, and conventions of story-telling that I doubt would have ever reached the community through official channels.

And this isn't unique to the DAO team.  Patrick Weekes and Chris L'Etoile discussed ME's dialogue wheel with me at great length.  This is a feature of BioWare generally, and it's terrific.

[devSin]

David Gaider wrote...
And, to be honest, if your supposition is that it's the "multitude on these forums" that are buying it and the silent majority that are not I think you you have it backwards. If the silent majority was not interested in DLC then it wouldn't sell and it wouldn't be made.

Come back and say that when you guys actually make some DLC, yeah?

Modifié par devSin, 16 février 2010 - 11:33 .

[Tsuga C]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
This is a feature of BioWare generally, and it's terrific.

^ Thumbs up to this observation. 

[MerinTB]

David Gaider wrote...

Sabriana wrote...
I wish I had millions and millions to throw at you, David. I also wish you girls and guys wound never had to join up with a certain publisher, I have such bad memories about that. I appreciate yours and all the others who made a great game. However, the practices to milk the customers for all they are worth is saddening.
We might just be a niche market, but we are loyal. Until we realize that we are taken for a ride. Not by you. or anyone we so fondly remember, but by the urge to milk us for whatever you can get out of us. That's not what we remember. Be as kind to us, as we are loyal to you. I've already done the unthinkable, I won't buy any DLC. Because it's not what it should be. WK was alright, RoO is terrible., in my (personal opinion).

The people who will buy anything with BioWare on it are in multitude on these forums. The silent majority is not. How much easier is it to just shrug it off and move on to another game? It's so easy to say we made X amount of money. It's so hard to say we could've made X + X amount of money? I guess I just don't want BioWare to die just as Maxis an Westwood, and many others. I would be so very sad.

Is there a reason you're addressing this to me? I have nothing to do with DLC.

And, to be honest, if your supposition is that it's the "multitude on these forums" that are buying it and the silent majority that are not I think you you have it backwards. If the silent majority was not interested in DLC then it wouldn't sell and it wouldn't be made. What we have on these forums is a very vocal minority that oppose the idea of DLC being made for anybody because they believe everybody should only want more extensive content and that that's all we should be spending our time on. I get it, but I'm not sure why these people also believe they are speaking on behalf of others any more than the people in favor are. At the end of the day it's your right to decide what's worth your purchase and what isn't -- as it is theirs -- and the sales will dictate whether we as a company decide to move forward with this type of content. As it should be, if you ask me. Which you are.

What I find most insulting are those people who post claiming that those of us who decide we like the DLC and are willing to pay for the given price for it are "hurting ourselves" and that those same people have to crusade against DLC to "save" those of us who "don't know any better" because we are "fanbois".

The nerve.  They can like or dislike whatever they want - but when they start claiming that I don't really know what I like or want and they have to decide for me...

Thanks for trying to speak rationally and patiently with such people, David.  It's really beyond me on all but my best days.

[David Gaider]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
During development, you (and Mary, Sheryl, and Georg) would routinely discuss minutia that were never going anywhere near a press release.  There were long discussions about inventory management (which you mostly avoided), camera control, and conventions of story-telling that I doubt would have ever reached the community through official channels.

And this isn't unique to the DAO team.  Patrick Weekes and Chris L'Etoile discussed ME's dialogue wheel with me at great length.  This is a feature of BioWare generally, and it's terrific.

Well, this is true -- but these are not what I would call "information sensitive" topics. I certainly enjoy coming here to discuss these sorts of things, as do other Bioware folk, and getting that type of feeback is important so we aren't developing in a complete vacuum.

[purplesunset]

Sabriana wrote...
However, the practices to milk the customers for all they are worth is saddening.

We might just be a niche market, but we are [b]loyal[/b]. Until we realize that we are taken for a ride. Not by you. or anyone we so fondly remember, but by the urge to milk us for whatever you can get out of us. That's not what we remember. Be as kind to us, as we are loyal to you. I've already done the unthinkable, I won't buy any DLC. Because it's not what it should be. WK was alright, RoO is terrible., in my (personal opinion).

The people who will buy anything with BioWare on it are in multitude on these forums. The silent majority is not. How much easier is it to just shrug it off and move on to another game? It's so easy to say we made X amount of money. It's so hard to say we could've made X + X amount of money? I guess I just don't want BioWare to die just as Maxis an Westwood, and many others. I would be so very sad.

So you made a heartfelt post, and what was Mr. Gaider's response? "Money is the bottomline. Sales, not sentiment will determine our plans for DLC."

Hopefully that was  a wake up call to you. My wake up call was much more harsh than that.

[akkaze]

i skimmed this thread and skimmed the article (i dont think it was attacking DG at all myself, was it? i read it just as a summary of some of the interesting issues that have come up in forums and DG's take on them), and i was going to write a reply along the same lines as most other people, about how DG's posts are always fun and interesting and I don't think any of the bioware posters have been rude or anything like that at all, quite the contrary, admirable in their restraint and patience and general good-naturedness...



but then i read that post a ways back about how DG with the story in DAO broke that posters heart and stomped on it... and then i started thinking about my first playthrough, and now i just need tissues



-stumbles off-

[David Gaider]

purplesunset wrote...
So you made a heartfelt post, and what was Mr. Gaider's response? "Money is the bottomline. Sales, not sentiment will determine our plans for DLC."

Hopefully that was  a wake up call to you. My wake up call was much more harsh than that.

If that's how you wish to characterize my post, than so be it. I have no input when it comes to DLC, but if a "wake up call" is required for someone to realize that a business will be run as a business -- whether it is EA or Bioware without EA -- then I guess it's required. Our place as a developer is to make sure we make the content we put out there as high quality as we can, whether it be shot or long.

[the_one_54321]

purplesunset wrote...

Sabriana wrote...
However, the practices to milk the customers for all they are worth is saddening.

We might just be a niche market, but we are [b]loyal[/b]. Until we realize that we are taken for a ride. Not by you. or anyone we so fondly remember, but by the urge to milk us for whatever you can get out of us. That's not what we remember. Be as kind to us, as we are loyal to you. I've already done the unthinkable, I won't buy any DLC. Because it's not what it should be. WK was alright, RoO is terrible., in my (personal opinion).

The people who will buy anything with BioWare on it are in multitude on these forums. The silent majority is not. How much easier is it to just shrug it off and move on to another game? It's so easy to say we made X amount of money. It's so hard to say we could've made X + X amount of money? I guess I just don't want BioWare to die just as Maxis an Westwood, and many others. I would be so very sad.

So you made a heartfelt post, and what was Mr. Gaider's response? "Money is the bottomline. Sales, not sentiment will determine our plans for DLC."

Hopefully that was  a wake up call to you. My wake up call was much more harsh than that.

Or he could have lied and said that he pays his bills with the hugs and positive sentiment of his fans.

I'm not entirely happy with some of the things BioWare has been doing lately, but if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it probably is a duck. And I don't see a whole lot wrong looking like, quacking like, and being a duck. For the present, anyway.