13 réponses à ce sujet

[Raze48]

I see most people say to pump up Strength at first to get massive armor usage, then go to magic. But if I were to take AW as a secondary spec, that makes Magic take over as your Strength modifier, correct? If so, would it be better to just pump pure Magic and suck until level 14? lol

Does the Magic used as Strength modifier apply to Shape changed form damage as well, or just applies to being able to use armor?

[TBastian]

The AW's first skill only allows your magic replace your strength when activated. Otherwise, your magic only works for determining armor requirements instead of strength. Note that changing forms automatically disables all sustained spells.

A pure magic Shapeshifter's forms remain useful throughout the game. It doesn't suck at all, and early on it will actually be doing more damage than most warrior/rogues because:
a) the forms never miss as long as you're using a staff
the forms have skills that are the equivalent of tier 3 warrior/rogue skills
c) the forms have very high armor penetration when you're using a staff
d) their starting bonuses make them quite powerful for a while

The main downside is that the forms can't heal on their own, but as long as you use your nukes, DoT's, AoE's, CC's and have your warrior use Taunt before casting Force Field on him/her before changing forms, you shouldn't have any problem at all. Check the wiki for other bonuses the forms have, what stats they get at specific levels and if you wanna know how Shapeshifting really works.
Changing back to human form happens instantly, so if you think your spells/lyrium pots have finished cooldown you can switch back and resume nuking, casting spells, etc.

The form-centric Shapeshifter build (the one that pumps strength a lot) is a unique build, although it works well if you have a healer.

Modifié par TBastian, 11 février 2010 - 06:45 .

[mosspit]

As far as Shapeshifting is concern, check out x-president's http://social.biowar...66/index/739982
There is a ton of info in there.

[TBastian]

Here's the link to the wiki. It's gone through a major overhaul in the last few months, and most of the info has been cross-checked/confirmed.

Modifié par TBastian, 11 février 2010 - 07:03 .

[x-president]

Shapeshifter/Arcane Warrior is not a good combo imo.  Shapeshifter/Blood Mage works better just for the stat boost alone.


You don't hve to constantly boost strength, but I'd get it to at least 38 so you can use pretty much any armour.  If you can get a spellscore around 50 you shoudl be fine for the entire game if plan to use a lot of shapeshifting.  Like using the bear or spider for tanking.

If you are going with PC Shapeshifter, a 2strength 1 magic is a nice steady build as oyu level up.  By the time you reach lvl 14 you should have a strong bear and spider along with master shapeshifter you get overwhelm.

I'd reccomend for a strong shapeshifter build to stop magic around 35 so you can access all spells, then just boost strength for high bear and spider dmg.

If you wanna use more spell casting, then just swap the number to like 2 magic 1 strength.  No need to add dex or constitution.  The boost you get form shapeshifitng will be plenty good.

[TBastian]

No, I wouldn't recommend being a hybrid of the pure magic and strength-build Shapeshifter. I think that both are good builds, but you have to choose between either since you can't have both. If your strength is too low, the pure magic Shapeshifter's stats will replace that. And even if your hybrid's strength manages to replace the pure magic Shapeshifter's, your strength will only be 5 or so points better than the pure magic Shapeshifter's form's default strength. This implies that you'll have sacrificed 15 points or so (around 5 levels worth) of stats points just to have your strength 5 or so points higher than the form's default stat points . That's a lot of wasted points. The pure magic Shapshifter's other stats (dex and con) will also be much higher.

Shapeshifter/Arcane Warrior works well for the pure magic Shapeshifter. This basically makes you as tough as the strength-build Shapeshifter but your damage will be much lower. You'll have your spells, though, and your damage remains decent and constant even when you're fighting heavily armored opponents. Since you won't be spending as much time Shapeshifted, however, this isn't a serious problem as your spells should be working on the background.

Edit: Shapeshifting table.
From the table we know that at 70 spellpower the Bear has 28 strength.
A human with 15 strength (+bonuses) who adds 1 strength per level will have 15 (with bonuses) +19 (levels)=  34 strength by level 20. But a pure magic mage will have 17 (+bonuses) + 57 = around 70 spellpower by level 20. But that's not even including the spellpower you get from staves and other items, and Spell Mastery. So a pure magic Shapeshifter's bear could have around 30-32 strength in the end.
I really don't think  you'll want to sacrifice 19 stat points just to have your strength 2-4 points higher than the pure magic Shapeshifiter's, while your dexterity and constituion attributes are much lower and your spells are not as powerful.

Modifié par TBastian, 11 février 2010 - 08:35 .

[x-president]

I'd agree you wanna go one way or the other.  For tanking I'd reccommend a strong shapeshifter build.  With a strongshapshifter build you can still easily get a spellscore of 50.

Personally in my experience, Arcane Warrior is not worth combining with Shapeshifter no matter what.  They don't complement each other.  If you are goona use Arcane Warrior there is no reason to shapeshift and just being able to have some better armor sooner is not worth it imo.

I have yet to find a good reason to use that combo where it benefits a shapeshifter even with a low strength build.

Modifié par x-president, 11 février 2010 - 08:46 .

[TBastian]

The Arcane Warrior is a warrior or a mage, he cannot be the extremes of both at the same time (not only in theory, but in practice because of skill cooldowns, fatigue, sustained mana consumption, low mana regen etc). Most people take Arcane Warrior talents to turn their mages into warriors, but a pure magic Shapeshifter/Arcane Warrior only has Arcane Warrior talents so he could better defend himself better in human form and so he can use better gear to boost his shapeshifting. First and foremost this character is a nuker, so actually turning him character into a sword-wielding, heavy-armor using spellsword (no matter how tempting that is) is not an option since he already has a specific function in the party. If your party already has the single-target DPS and tanking taken cared off, and only lacks AoE and crowd control, why would you deny it that? Mages are also quite frail in their human form, so AW is a good option to have.
Perhaps it can be argued that a warrior-type Arcane Warrior would be better for solo, but that's another topic. Solo gameplay is very different from playing with a party.

Modifié par TBastian, 11 février 2010 - 09:25 .

[x-president]

TBastian wrote...
 If your party already has the single-target DPS and tanking taken cared off, and only lacks AoE and crowd control, why would you deny it that? Mages are also quite frail in their human form, so AW is a good option to have.
Perhaps it can be argued that a warrior-type Arcane Warrior would be better for solo, but that's another topic. Solo gameplay is very different from playing with a party.

Yea, I agree it would work good, but then you are putting shapeshifting to the side.  You are focusing more on Arcane Warrior talents and casting spells.

If you only want use shapeshifting and not worry about casting spells more then 25% of the time, then combining it with Arcane Warrior really isn't gonna benefit you as a shapeshifter.  Even the short amount of time you are out of shape, doesn't really effect if you change to different shapes right away.


I do not have a lot of experience with Arcane Warrior.  I have yet to dig deep into that class.  I have only set Morrigan up with it once to see how well it would benefit a shapeshifter and I basically never used it and saw no benefits using shapeshifting forms.  But I was constantly turning Morrigan into either a Spider or Bear.

[Mr_Raider]

The best shapeshifter gear is the final reason staff (huge spellpower bonus) and maybe the reaper's vestments for the con and armor bonus, and fire resistance. Neither require any strength to equip. The only reason I see to go with AW is to equip weapons with rune damage, but then you loose auto-hit ability.



I agree SS/BM is the best option for the high spellpower build. Cast from will power, then cast from HP, drop blood wound, and if anything is left standing switch to swarm for AoE damage and watch your HP restore.



If don't want BM, get SH for the +2 magic and health regen bonus.



For the Sterngth build, what do people recommend as afinal Str/magic natural score?

[TBastian]

Yea, I agree it would work good, but then you are putting shapeshifting to the side. You are focusing more on Arcane Warrior talents and casting spells.

I actually meant using both specializations as support and using nuking as your main. You are a mage, after all. You are not putting shapeshifting to the side, you are just saving it for when the time comes to use it - when you have nothing better to do since your spells aren't ready yet, when someone needs to tank the dragon since you can't be grabbed (you can boost your resistances and armor to do this) or when you want to attract the attention of all archers in the vicinity and stay alive while doing it. The same goes for the AW skills. Note that the pure magic Shapeshifter relies more on the form's skills rather than their normal attack (since their strength is lower). Since Spider and Flying Swarm do nature damage, if you're fighting something undead for example and you've already used Bear Form then you're pretty much stuck in human form. The AW skills can help you survive if you should accidentally attract aggro at this point. Although I've never actually taken AW with my Shapeshifter (I personally prefer Spirit Healer for Revive) I have indeed found myself in situations wherein I was forced to remain in human form, and the best I could do at that point was run around in circles. So both specializations can actually work well together.

I agree SS/BM is the best option for the high spellpower build. Cast
from will power, then cast from HP, drop blood wound, and if anything is
left standing switch to swarm for AoE damage and watch your HP restore.

In practice SS/BM is great for form-centric Shapeshifters since their armor/resistance should help mitigate incoming damage, but pure magic Shapeshifters will very quickly lose Flying Swarm form if they use it without the proper setup first (and especially if your mana is low). The theory of BM-cast-spells->Flying-Swarm fails in practice for the pure magic Shapeshifter because the form ends as soon as your mana is completely depleted, which will happen quickly if your armor and defense are low... probably unless you took AW levels and are wearing some tactical set (never tried). Besides, you can't have both constitution, spellpower or other items at the same time. If you go pure magic and take BM you'll need to rely on items with constitution boosts. Finally it's the BM that is the one specialization that would actually put Shapeshifter to the side. It's OK for strength Shapeshifters who need the spellcasting boost, but if you're a pure magic Shapeshifter you'll be constantly forced to choose whether you should shapeshift or not.  This I've tried, and it's like that in practice.

For the Sterngth build, what do people recommend as afinal Str/magic natural score?

Read x-president's guide, the link is on the third post.

Modifié par TBastian, 12 février 2010 - 03:13 .

[x-president]

Mr_Raider wrote...
For the Sterngth build, what do people recommend as afinal Str/magic natural score?

For just a strong build, magic no higher then 35 is needed so you can get all spells unless you want Death Hex which is the only spell that requires lvl 36.  Every other point into strength, but I generally like to have a spellscore around 50.  So do that by added more magic poitns or boosting from gear.

My guide has more detailed leveling system and such.

[x-president]

TBastian wrote...

Yea, I agree it would work good, but then you are putting shapeshifting to the side. You are focusing more on Arcane Warrior talents and casting spells.

I actually meant using both specializations as support and using nuking as your main. You are a mage, after all. You are not putting shapeshifting to the side, you are just saving it for when the time comes to use it - when you have nothing better to do since your spells aren't ready yet, when someone needs to tank the dragon since you can't be grabbed (you can boost your resistances and armor to do this) or when you want to attract the attention of all archers in the vicinity and stay alive while doing it. The same goes for the AW skills. Note that the pure magic Shapeshifter relies more on the form's skills rather than their normal attack (since their strength is lower). Since Spider and Flying Swarm do nature damage, if you're fighting something undead for example and you've already used Bear Form then you're pretty much stuck in human form. The AW skills can help you survive if you should accidentally attract aggro at this point. Although I've never actually taken AW with my Shapeshifter (I personally prefer Spirit Healer for Revive) I have indeed found myself in situations wherein I was forced to remain in human form, and the best I could do at that point was run around in circles. So both specializations can actually work well together.

I agree SS/BM is the best option for the high spellpower build. Cast
from will power, then cast from HP, drop blood wound, and if anything is
left standing switch to swarm for AoE damage and watch your HP restore.

In practice SS/BM is great for form-centric Shapeshifters since their armor/resistance should help mitigate incoming damage, but pure magic Shapeshifters will very quickly lose Flying Swarm form if they use it without the proper setup first (and especially if your mana is low). The theory of BM-cast-spells->Flying-Swarm fails in practice for the pure magic Shapeshifter because the form ends as soon as your mana is completely depleted, which will happen quickly if your armor and defense are low... probably unless you took AW levels and are wearing some tactical set (never tried). Besides, you can't have both constitution, spellpower or other items at the same time. If you go pure magic and take BM you'll need to rely on items with constitution boosts. Finally it's the BM that is the one specialization that would actually put Shapeshifter to the side. It's OK for strength Shapeshifters who need the spellcasting boost, but if you're a pure magic Shapeshifter you'll be constantly forced to choose whether you should shapeshift or not.  This I've tried, and it's like that in practice.

Yea, using AW like that would work.  I really do not have a lot of experience with that class.  Most of my games ahve been use shapeshifting or nothing.  If all fails mix in some spells.  That is mostly due to testing reason, but if one new how to play a shapeshifter and when to use it, then tossing in AW for whe nit would be needed would work great.

And yea some situation you just have to use spells.  It's either because you have to go through a cutscene, load, or just don't have the time.


I choose BM most of the time, but I never get the spells in that line.  I basically take it for the stat boost only.  That way I get +2 Constitution and +2 Spellscore for my Shapeshifter.  Personally I am not a big fan of BM.  I just can't see the purpose in killing myself.

And the whole use swarm to heal after casting just doesn't work as good as it sounds.  In theory it sounds awesome, but most of the time a fight will not last that long and if it does it can be hard to get all your health back.  I've did some testing with it and it is just better to go spider or bear and clean up the enmies that are left.

[Mr_Raider]

x-president wrote...

Mr_Raider wrote...
For the Sterngth build, what do people recommend as afinal Str/magic natural score?

For just a strong build, magic no higher then 35 is needed so you can get all spells unless you want Death Hex which is the only spell that requires lvl 36.  Every other point into strength, but I generally like to have a spellscore around 50.  So do that by added more magic poitns or boosting from gear.

My guide has more detailed leveling system and such.

Afte analyzing the situation, I would suggest a minimum magic score of 36. This would allow you to equip teh highest tier of staves and obtain the best armor penetration.

Modifié par Mr_Raider, 12 février 2010 - 08:46 .