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[Default137]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Loghain's role will obviously be more weak-minded, irrational fear of Orlais, cowardly acts of treason, selling his own citizens into slavery, hiring apostate maleficarum assassins, and betraying the Wardens in general.

Considering the amount of foreshadowing we saw in DA:O about Orlais attacking Ferelden...... ( Lord Foreshadow and his notes )

As I said though, he's a dick, but he's the person I'd most want in charge of training the Gray Wardens for anything that comes up, Alistar is nice and all, but funny little quips do not win wars, battle-tested soldiers with years of training under their belt will.

Also, I refuse to kill a potentially innocent man who has great use to my cause because my current second in command has the maturity of a four year old, and is willing to damn everything he has ever loved or cared about because he couldn't get his way and kill a man who even if he was as evil as is made out to be should be imprisoned for his crimes.

Modifié par Default137, 19 février 2010 - 07:37 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Default137 wrote...
Also, I refuse to kill a potentially innocent man who has great use to my cause because my current second in command has the maturity of a four year old, and is willing to damn everything he has ever loved or cared about because he couldn't get his way and kill a man who even if he was as evil as is made out to be should be imprisoned for his crimes.

He's not potentially innocent... Not by a long shot.
Jowan says he was hired by Loghain himself; Loghain admits to selling the elves into slavery.  So that's slavery, assassination, and "interfering with a templar's sacred duty" that he's assuredly guilty of, and a boatload of other things. Loghain was defiant until the very moment he lost the duel. He called the entire Landsmeet traitors for disagreeing with him and didn't come close to relenting until his back was against the wall and he was beaten.

I wouldn't trust that man to weed my garden, let alone give him any form of power or chance to actually follow through with his plan to stop the Wardens from his delusions about Orlais. He dies each and every time.

Say what you will about Alistair, and, yes, he's quite childish, but Loghain is cripplingly stupid.

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 19 février 2010 - 07:45 .

[Vicious]

Better to have him alive and useful, especially considering the Darkspawn aren't going to be the minor fairy tale threat they were in the past.



Anyway, I figure he will have a minor role like Alistair/Wynne: Basically just there to give you the 'mission briefing' and send you on your way.

[Default137]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Default137 wrote...
Also, I refuse to kill a potentially innocent man who has great use to my cause because my current second in command has the maturity of a four year old, and is willing to damn everything he has ever loved or cared about because he couldn't get his way and kill a man who even if he was as evil as is made out to be should be imprisoned for his crimes.

He's not potentially innocent... Not by a long shot.
Jowan says he was hired by Loghain himself; Loghain admits to selling the elves into slavery.  So that's slavery, assassination, and "interfering with a templar's sacred duty" that he's assuredly guilty of, and a boatload of other things. Loghain was defiant until the very moment he lost the duel. He called the entire Landsmeet traitors for disagreeing with him and didn't come close to relenting until his back was against the wall and he was beaten.

I wouldn't trust that man to weed my garden, let alone give him any form of power or chance to actually follow through with his plan to stop the Wardens from his delusions about Orlais. He dies each and every time.

Say what you will about Alistair, and, yes, he's quite childish, but Loghain is cripplingly stupid.

You'd kill a man for keeping a political rival out of the way, and selling second class citizens during a time slavery carried very little stigma to keep his country together? Especially if he is the greatest hero/general the country and possibly the world has ever known, and you are about to launch a major attack on an enemy stronghold using armies?

Loghain made all the right moves in the game, to the point the only reason we think he is guilty is because he "betrayed" us, however, if you actually look at the evidence presented, he may not have even done that, and Flemeth could have been using us, and Alistars limited intelligence to get rid of him for her own goals.

At first, I saved him because my character would, she was born of noble bloodline, and would have met and heard about Loghain before as a great man, and would have grown up on that, so she wouldn't have been so willing to believe Flemeth when she said he betrayed them, and would have started to pin everything on Howe's doing as she went through the game. But after I actually saved him, I found out I was right, he is an amoral ass, but he was not as evil or guilty as many people want to make him out to be, and sure as hell doesn't deserve death.

Modifié par Default137, 19 février 2010 - 08:08 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Default137 wrote...

You'd kill a man for keeping a political rival out of the way, and selling second class citizens during a time slavery carried very little stigma to keep his country together? Especially if he is the greatest hero/general the country and possibly the world has ever known, and you are about to launch a major attack on an enemy stronghold using armies?

Loghain made all the right moves in the game, to the point the only reason we think he is guilty is because he "betrayed" us, however, if you actually look at the evidence presented, he may not have even done that, and Flemeth could have been using us, and Alistars limited intelligence to get rid of him.

Eh? He's astronomically guilty. The reason I think he's guilty is because he specifically says he's guilty, because all the witnesses and evidence specifically says he's guilty, and because he is guilty. He spends the entire game trying to assassinate all his rivals. That's the act of a tyrant, and Loghain specifically shows he has absolutely no concern for the actual citizens of Ferelden. He has some manical patriotism for the theory of the country, but he doesn't give a rat's ass about the actual people that represent that country, so who cares if he's trying to "hold his country together"?

Saying Loghain "is the greatest hero the world has ever known" is extreme hyperbole, so I won't comment much further on that. Yeah, he's a hero; that doesn't excuse his crimes in any way.

So, yes, I will kill him. He was a constant threat to the stability of Ferelden; he tried to eliminate the Grey Warden order; he displayed not even a shred of concern for Ferelden's people; and he has shown constantly that his irrational fear of Orlais cripples his political mind.
The man can not be trusted. Of course I will kill him. It's far too risky to let him live at the Landsmeet after all he's done, let alone have him join the order.

I mean, Christ... "You tried to kill us left and right and you wanted to kill me 5 seconds ago, but, hey, let's have you join us now! Makes perfect sense, doesn't it? Sure, Riordan, he can be 'useful'! That more than makes up for the enormous risk involved with keeping him alive and letting him join us!"

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 19 février 2010 - 08:15 .

[casedawgz]

That's what so great about Dragon Age. There really isn't anyone who's totally in the right. Maybe if somebody had explained the specifics of how Grey Wardens kill the archdemon instead of just whining about how then nobody would want to join, people would take them seriously BEFORE the 11th hour. Does anyone really think Loghain's actions would have been the same if the Grey Wardens hadn't been such secretive bastards and explained everything to him? What he did was wrong, but so was withholding the information that could have prevented it.

[Default137]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Default137 wrote...

You'd kill a man for keeping a political rival out of the way, and selling second class citizens during a time slavery carried very little stigma to keep his country together? Especially if he is the greatest hero/general the country and possibly the world has ever known, and you are about to launch a major attack on an enemy stronghold using armies?

Loghain made all the right moves in the game, to the point the only reason we think he is guilty is because he "betrayed" us, however, if you actually look at the evidence presented, he may not have even done that, and Flemeth could have been using us, and Alistars limited intelligence to get rid of him.

Eh? He's astronomically guilty. The reason I think he's guilty is because he specifically says he's guilty, because all the witnesses and evidence specifically says he's guilty, and because he is guilty. He spends the entire game trying to assassinate all his rivals. That's the act of a tyrant, and Loghain specifically shows he has absolutely no concern for the actual citizens of Ferelden. He has some manical patriotism for the theory of the country, but he doesn't give a rat's ass about the actual people that represent that country, so who cares if he's trying to "hold his country together"?

Saying Loghain "is the greatest hero the world has ever known" is extreme hyperbole, so I won't comment much further on that. Yeah, he's a hero; that doesn't excuse his crimes in any way.

So, yes, I will kill him. He was a constant threat to the stability of Ferelden; he tried to eliminate the Grey Warden order; he displayed not even a shred of concern for Ferelden's people; and he has shown constantly that his irrational fear of Orlais cripples his political mind.
The man can not be trusted. Of course I will kill him. It's far too risky to let him live at the Landsmeet after all he's done.

Guilty of what?

Did he sell Elves? Sure, but as I said, this is a time when slavery is not exactly immoral or wrong, and he needed that money to keep Ferelden even running at a basic level due to your actions.

Did he keep a Eamon out of the way? Sure! But he says himself he didn't plan to kill him, just keep him sleeping while he rebuilt the military up for an Orleasian invasion during Fereldens weak period, which is what a general would IMMEDIATLY THINK ABOUT after the majority of the countries armies just died.

Did he betray us at Ostagar? Nobody knows! He tells the king he should not go fight at the front, and tells your Gray Warden that you will be a fine Warden in the future if your female, and that he'll be interested in your progress, implying he never planned to kill either you or the King, and if you actually talk to him later, he tells you that Ostagar was a massive-****up, and he never planned to retreat, but did so because the mages had already left, and he knew a frontal charge would kill the majority of his army, and he couldn't leave Ferelden defenseless against Orleas to wipe out a "minor darkspawn threat"

So what exactly did he do again that makes him guilty enough for death? His paranoia is justified because he is a General, and as one, you would know never to let 3/4ths of your total military die in a stupid suicidal charge while you live next door to a neighbor that has conquered you while your pants were down before, no matter how many years of peace you've had since you fought them off.

[bzombo]

Rafaelan wrote...

If Loghain is conscripted but survives the final battle, then he becomes a major recruiter for the Grey Wardens before eventually venturing into the Deep Roads to die fighting the darkspawn.

It doesn't mention in the epilogue how many years eventually actually means....

if loghain eventually made it to the deep roads and died there, how freakin old would he be? maric died in his 40s i think, and loghain was older than maric. jeez......he'd have a walker, an aarp membership, and say, "oh my aching back!" every time he swung his sword.

[bzombo]

Default137 wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Default137 wrote...

You'd kill a man for keeping a political rival out of the way, and selling second class citizens during a time slavery carried very little stigma to keep his country together? Especially if he is the greatest hero/general the country and possibly the world has ever known, and you are about to launch a major attack on an enemy stronghold using armies?

Loghain made all the right moves in the game, to the point the only reason we think he is guilty is because he "betrayed" us, however, if you actually look at the evidence presented, he may not have even done that, and Flemeth could have been using us, and Alistars limited intelligence to get rid of him.

Eh? He's astronomically guilty. The reason I think he's guilty is because he specifically says he's guilty, because all the witnesses and evidence specifically says he's guilty, and because he is guilty. He spends the entire game trying to assassinate all his rivals. That's the act of a tyrant, and Loghain specifically shows he has absolutely no concern for the actual citizens of Ferelden. He has some manical patriotism for the theory of the country, but he doesn't give a rat's ass about the actual people that represent that country, so who cares if he's trying to "hold his country together"?

Saying Loghain "is the greatest hero the world has ever known" is extreme hyperbole, so I won't comment much further on that. Yeah, he's a hero; that doesn't excuse his crimes in any way.

So, yes, I will kill him. He was a constant threat to the stability of Ferelden; he tried to eliminate the Grey Warden order; he displayed not even a shred of concern for Ferelden's people; and he has shown constantly that his irrational fear of Orlais cripples his political mind.
The man can not be trusted. Of course I will kill him. It's far too risky to let him live at the Landsmeet after all he's done.

Guilty of what?

Did he sell Elves? Sure, but as I said, this is a time when slavery is not exactly immoral or wrong, and he needed that money to keep Ferelden even running at a basic level due to your actions.

Did he keep a Eamon out of the way? Sure! But he says himself he didn't plan to kill him, just keep him sleeping while he rebuilt the military up for an Orleasian invasion during Fereldens weak period, which is what a general would IMMEDIATLY THINK ABOUT after the majority of the countries armies just died.

Did he betray us at Ostagar? Nobody knows! He tells the king he should not go fight at the front, and tells your Gray Warden that you will be a fine Warden in the future if your female, and that he'll be interested in your progress, implying he never planned to kill either you or the King, and if you actually talk to him later, he tells you that Ostagar was a massive-****up, and he never planned to retreat, but did so because the mages had already left, and he knew a frontal charge would kill the majority of his army, and he couldn't leave Ferelden defenseless against Orleas to wipe out a "minor darkspawn threat"

So what exactly did he do again that makes him guilty enough for death? His paranoia is justified because he is a General, and as one, you would know never to let 3/4ths of your total military die in a stupid suicidal charge while you live next door to a neighbor that has conquered you while your pants were down before, no matter how many years of peace you've had since you fought them off.

ummm.....it is mentioned in the game that slavery is outlawed in ferelden. loghain went behind everyone's back to have a deal with the tevinters. not exactly a time when there was no stigma.  loghain is a patriot who let his loyalty to his country ruin him. it's a classic story, but it does not absolve him of all guilt. he killed the son of the man he swore to protect. pretting damning to me.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

I'll tackle things individually here.

Default137 wrote...

Guilty of what?

Did you play the game? He's guilty of a LOT of things...

Did he sell Elves? Sure, but as I said, this is a time when slavery is not exactly immoral or wrong, and he needed that money to keep Ferelden even running at a basic level due to your actions.

Erm, no, he wanted that money to keep Ferelden running after his own actions caused a civil war. The Warden didn't cause a civil war, Loghain did. Loghain ****ed up royally by ignoring the darkspawn and inciting civil war, and he resorted to slavery to drag his own ass out of the financial gutter. What he did is monstrous. Slavery is illegal in Ferelden, and it is insanely amoral. I am always astonished how fervently Loghain supporters try to justify what he did here. Try as you like, you can't justify slavery (even in Ferelden) without looking like a complete tool. No specific offense meant, but, come on!

Did he keep a Eamon out of the way? Sure! But he says himself he didn't plan to kill him, just keep him sleeping while he rebuilt the military up for an Orleasian invasion during Fereldens weak period, which is what a general would IMMEDIATLY THINK ABOUT after the majority of the countries armies just died.

He hired an apostate assassin to poison Eamon because he didn't want someone challenging him. He's a tyrant who tries to force his subjects in line under his own personal vendettas. Yeah, what a swell guy... Perfectly normal and respectable thing to do...

Did he betray us at Ostagar? Nobody knows! He tells the king he should not go fight at the front, and tells your Gray Warden that you will be a fine Warden in the future if your female, and that he'll be interested in your progress, implying he never planned to kill either you or the King, and if you actually talk to him later, he tells you that Ostagar was a massive-****up, and he never planned to retreat, but did so because the mages had already left, and he knew a frontal charge would kill the majority of his army, and he couldn't leave Ferelden defenseless against Orleas to wipe out a "minor darkspawn threat"

He did betray the Grey Wardens, Cailan, and the troops at Ostagar. UNDOUBTEDLY. He planend the retreat before-hand. That's not a guess; that's how it is. How do I know this? Simple: it's said so in game.
Look at the evidence. Highever was attacked before Ostagar. You can try to argue that this was Howe's doing alone, and that Loghain had nothing to do with it, but that seems naive.

But even if you ignore that, Ser Donal specifically says that Arl Eamon was poisoned BEFORE Ostagar. Why would Loghain posion the Arl before the king died unless he specifically PLANNED to kill the king!? There's no need to try and keep the Arl out of his political way unless he knew the king would die. Loghain knew Cailan would stay on the front lines, and Loghain CLEARLY planned to kill the king.

So what exactly did he do again that makes him guilty enough for death? His paranoia is justified because he is a General, and as one, you would know never to let 3/4ths of your total military die in a stupid suicidal charge while you live next door to a neighbor that has conquered you while your pants were down before, no matter how many years of peace you've had since you fought them off.

Let's recap:
Slavery, assassination, regicide, tyranny, cowardism, enabling Howe and all Howe's torture, murder, abductions, etc, throwing the kingdom into civil war for his personal fears, trying to kill the Grey Wardens, arrogance to call his entire jury of peers traitors for simply disagreeing with him...

The list goes on. The man deserves many deaths, if you ask me.

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 19 février 2010 - 08:35 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Here we go again. Not going to waste my time.

To answer the op. Loghain's role is a senior Grey Warden most probably. Although the epilogue says he is a recruiter, which seems to be your job. So I would presume he is a trainer of some sort. Plus, he only has a few months to live, so he either goes to the deep roads in this expansion or in the next one.

I am looking foward to the Loghain cameo.

[_Ermehtar_]

Agreed Loghain has no reedeming qualities. The only reason to keep him alive, is to get another ending (Got to see em all). He is by far the biggest coward in the game. Even if I play a evil jerk, Loghain dies. Having him as a general is a bad choice, considering his past history with betraying his betters.. I wouldn't trust him to wash Flemeths underwear.

[Morroian]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

He hired an apostate assassin to poison Eamon because he didn't want someone challenging him. He's a tyrant who tries to force his subjects in line under his own personal vendettas. Yeah, what a swell guy... Perfectly normal and respectable thing to do...

Plus he's ultimately responsible for the damage and murder the blood mages he let loose caused from Redcliffe to the Mages Tower. I've left him alive in 1 play through but he's clearly guilty of enough to justify being executed. Plus while he didn't want Howe to do what he did he certainly condoned it and continued to support Howe afterward.

[Nial Black-Knee]

Loghain, he's a no good dirty dealing scumbag. Beheading's too good for him, hanging's too good for him. He needs to be torn into little itty bitty peices and buried alive!!!

[Alandros]

He needs to be put on a leash and used as Darkspawn bait, let them get a bite or two before moving on to the next one.

[Wackysmack]

Best character in the game/DAO world to me. Hope his role in Awakening will reflect a changing attitude toward the Grey Wardens. Also hoping that perhaps they will give him or Alistair/Anora a role bigger than simply saying hello at the start of the game and describing the new situation that you are now facing.

Modifié par Wackysmack, 20 février 2010 - 12:01 .

[Feraele]

NKKKK wrote...

Assuming he's alive and well in the epilogue like the one in my Dalish Elf's, what will his role be?

I don't know ..but I've killed him off in 12 play-throughs so far.....guess I have to unfortunately let him live once to find out what his role is.   hehehe   But I detest him ..so its going to be hard for me to do that.

[lisakover]

I always harden Alistair and let Loghain sacrifice himself against the Archdemon, it just feels right.

[Dick Delaware]

_Ermehtar_ wrote...

Agreed Loghain has no reedeming qualities. The only reason to keep him alive, is to get another ending (Got to see em all). He is by far the biggest coward in the game. Even if I play a evil jerk, Loghain dies. Having him as a general is a bad choice, considering his past history with betraying his betters.. I wouldn't trust him to wash Flemeths underwear.

A person with no redeeming qualities is somebody like Arl Howe, not Loghain.

How is he a coward? He did some terrible, immoral things that Mystranna laid out very well, but the man is willing to duel you to the death and has fought in war all his life. He is paranoid, he's definitely arrogant - but a coward? And even if you do decide to kill him, he accepts his fate without any hesitation, saying that the country is safe in your hands. That's not cowardly either.

Why is it evil to spare him? Giving a man who's done wrong, has surrendered, and is willing to atone a chance to redeem himself is very noble, if you ask me. I understand the rationale for executing him, don't get me wrong, but saving him is hardly on the same level as say, giving the Desire Demon Connor's soul in exchange for blood magic.

I would think that a goody-two-shoes PC  would be jumping at the chance to spare Loghain.

I think in Awakening he'll be a very devoted Grey Warden. Regret can change the nature of a man (brownie points if you know where that's from) and I think that Loghain will want to make amends. He's been spared from death, realized the error of his ways, and now that he's a Grey Warden, his old life his gone. He has no real political power any more, so he couldn't really do any damage to Ferelden if he even wanted to.

Modifié par Dick Delaware, 20 février 2010 - 01:35 .

[_Ermehtar_]

Dick Delaware wrote...
A person with no redeeming qualities is somebody like Arl Howe, not Loghain.

Arl Howe was and oppertunist, but atleast he's somewhat honest with what he's doing. He won't stand and lie you in the face when confronted. And his standoff is more honourable then Loghins. While I understand that Loghain won't spill his guts on the landsmeet, he still denies everything when you first meet him in Denerim.

Dick Delaware wrote...
How is he a coward? He did some terrible, immoral things, but the man is willing to duel you to the death and has fought in war all his life. He is paranoid, he's definitely arrogant - but a coward? And even if you do decide to kill him, he accepts his fate without any hesitation, saying that the country is safe in your hands. That's not cowardly either.

He is willing to duel you when his brick-wall of lies are crumbling.. It's his only option,he's  like a injured dog when it's backed against the wall. He betrays his King, the son of his so called best friend, and all the people he leaves to die in Ostagar, among them you. He ends up sacrifice Lothering, well basically everything not called Denerim is left for the blight. He goes into civil wars with those that wont accept him.
How can you trust a guy like that to be a warden? To lead anyone into battle again? It all comes down to how we interpretive his action, and personality.

Dick Delaware wrote...
Why is it evil to spare him? Giving a man who's done wrong, has surrendered, and is willing to atone a chance to redeem himself is very noble, if you ask me. I understand the rationale for executing him, don't get me wrong, but saving him is hardly on the same level as say, giving the Desire Demon Connor's soul in exchange for blood magic.

I never said it was evil to spare him. I said that I end up killing him even when I'm playing a evil jerk.
I can kinda understand your comparison of the Connor situation. But in Connors case the ends justifies the means. You got to have and army to defeat the blight, one soul is a little price to pay for ending the Archdeamon and it's horde. But yes, I did that option once or twice, due to not having any mages in the circle to help me. (I also needed to unlock the bloodmage class)

Dick Delaware wrote...
I would think that a goody-two-shoes PC  would be jumping at the chance to spare Loghain.

I'm usualy more grey than a goody-goody-two--shoes. I'm trying to be more like Duncan whose main concern is to end the blight, and not be a super hero. Although the game more or less forces you to play like a hero, or a schoolyard bully..Else you won't end up with much of  an army.. 

 (Why can't we ever be the sneaky evil guy, like the emperor in SW)

[Phantom_1]

Mmm this all speaking bout Loghain.
I love this char so much especially coz Simon Templeman made me love it, as old player i still remember " Soul Reaver "
Other than that there are some question which commes in mind when you think bout Loghain :

- Loghain is guy which is on very responsible function , he cant allow himself to be either romantic or emotive bout his decisiouns and things he is doing , he is responsible bout safety of entire Feralden and all the ppl-
I never had impression bout him in the game that he is power hungry like Morrigan or Anora for example.

And in Ostagar as someone mentioned that battle was phail battle in front before even started chances where slim to win, one should ask himself what would happend if Loghain marched blindly in the battle and that 3/4 of Feralden army died there, that would have some serious consequences.
I cant blame Loghain for not having trust in Orlais , as we know Orlais have huge army and what things where in past between those two countrys you cant blame him for his obsession when  you consider what happend to him at his early age .

In start when you comme to Ostagar and speak to king he makes impression on you like he is some dreamer kid , and fool.

Bout selling slaves in Feralden , well as ppl know those elves where never free citizens in first place and they never had all rights like the rest , but those elves never did standed for themself like Dalish for that cause i dont have much respect for em.
And Loghain did sold em for his goal , to make money for mercenarys in army in war times.

Also throught game you offer redemption for bloody assassin Zevran who did killd who knows how many ppl and enjoyed his job and also you give redemption to Sten which did kill entire family of farmers with kids included, so why wouldnt you offer redemption to Loghain also his the man which loves his country, proven tactician and commander in war especially when in time like that you need every capable man for your cause.

And also want to add that Alistair proved as very emo person , i dont want guy like that to command my armies , he in end leaves you if you decide to spare Loghain , he leaves the wardens in their cause for defending against blight just coz the need for personal vengeance.

Modifié par Phantom_1, 20 février 2010 - 10:57 .

[Morroian]

Wackysmack wrote...

Best character in the game/DAO world to me. Hope his role in Awakening will reflect a changing attitude toward the Grey Wardens.

How can he have any large role when the majority of people probably killed him in DAO?

[fanman72]

Capt. Obvious wrote...

Maybe he'll be Anora's Hand?

More like the other way around.  Loghain was calling the shots when Maric, Cailen, Rowan, and Anora were all King or Queen.

[FieryDove]

SinYang wrote...

So chances are he is in the deep roads somewhere, if not dead already.....


The taint takes 30 years to kill a Grey warden, Loghain has more lifeforce left than the Warden himself.

Not if your already an old battered evil man. Even in the ending where he lives it says he recruits wardens and shortly after the taint is too much for him so he walks the walk.

Honestly he was a great character, I just want him dead that much more because his character and story was so...good.

[Meihem808]

I love Loghain as a character. At first I was like most posters and thought he was just so cruel and I still think some of the things he consents too are quite extreme, but after reading The Stolen Throne and The Calling you get a better understanding of Loghain.



Needless to say, if Loghain wasn't suspicious about Orlais, Maric would've died (you can't even count how many times Loghain saves his butt and this nation), Alistair would not have been born and Cailan -- well his childhood would have been drastically different.



The books really do give you a greater understanding of not only Loghain, but Duncan and Rowan and even Flemeth! This is why I always spare Loghain and give him the chance to redeem himself. I don't think Loghain will have a large part (if any) in Awakening however due to the current character progression. He either dies at your hand, or is spared and dies killing the Archdemon or shortly after. Either way, this character is amazing and even if you never spare his life, reading the books will definitely give you a better understanding of his motivations.