143 réponses à ce sujet

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

KainrycKarr wrote...

The same thing happened with Ashley/Kaidan and Liara. And you didn't really get a crystal clear break-off point once it was initiated.

It wasnt quite the same in ME1. They still had some dialogue after you turned them down in ME1, and you could still converse with characters who werent romanceable by your Shepards gender (My Shepard befriended Kaidan for example, whereas Garrus had two conversations and then the loyalty mission stuff).

It is fairly similar, but I stand by my point, and I dont for a second believe the squadmates in ME2 were a major improvement over ME1. At best Tali and Garrus role preserved what I liked about them in ME1, and at worst they occasionally irritate me with their almost complete reliance on romancing them.

JrayM16 wrote...

Except that that was the same amount you
got from anyone in ME1 as well.  I can see how you have a problem, what
I don't get is why you're giving ME1 a free pass on this problem which
it definetely also has but ME2 gets damned by you for it.

See above. ME1 had simialr problems, but due to more dialogue and better execution, I came away feeling I got so much more out of each character. They all had about nearly 6-7 dialogues.

In ME2, I had about at least 2, if pushing 3 dialogues each for Miranda, Jack, Tali and Garrus.

You do the math.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 12 février 2010 - 09:14 .

[jlb524]

KainrycKarr wrote...

The same thing happened with Ashley/Kaidan and Liara. And you didn't really get a crystal clear break-off point once it was initiated.

Liara flat-out asks you if you are interested in her.    You can say:  'Yes', 'I just want to be friends', or 'HECK NO!!'

It's quite clear.

With Kaidan, I can break it off with him in the first or second dialog (I know b/c I do this every time I play).  It's quite clear. 

[LN19]

Nozybidaj wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...

Really?  I got tons of dialogue from all of them, and i only romanced Miranda.

No you didnt actually. You got two or three dialogues at most, possibly one more until you were willing to finally say there is no romance, and then you got a loyalty mission. After that they dont really contribute much. Their roles on the suicide mission are interchangeable, and not personalised in any way other than who succeeds and who fails.

The same thing happened with Ashley/Kaidan and Liara. And you didn't really get a crystal clear break-off point once it was initiated.

I think Virmire'ing Ash/kaidan was pretty clear.  And you can clearly tell Liara you aren't interested.

That, and with Kaidan the clear dialogue option of "I want to keep this professional".

[Mossa_missa]

I miss old Liara to much to pick the new Crew.

[Scrimgeour10]

For me it isn't so black and white as "new crew better than old crew" or vice versa...it's too general to say that. There are characters in each game that I liked, some that I really enjoyed playing with, and others that I thought were just plain dull and uninteresting. I think it's just down to personal opinion - nobody will like everyone.

From ME1, I loved Ashley, Garrus and Wrex, but found the other three bland and a bit boring. (My party was actually normally made up of two from Garrus, Ashley and Liara, but the latter was only due to the mechanics of biotics.)

However in the second game, I really liked where they had taken Tali's character. in ME1 I just viewed her as a walking VI on quarian culture and history, but liked how the character was developed in ME2. And despite the apparent lack of popularity on these boards, I thought Jack was great - loved everything about the character and how she was implemented and developed throughout the game. However again, there were characters that were less interesting to me, such as Jacob, Samara, Zaeed.

I think many of the arguments over "what crew is better" stem from the (understandable) outrage or annoyance of the disgrunted people who really became attached to Kaidan/Liara/Ashley and who are therefore less accepting towards the crew who, in essence, "replaced" them. And the other side is the people who really liked Garrus and Tali and are therefore happy to see them back as part of the new squad, making them more accepting of all the new characters as their favourites are included.

I may be wrong, but I don't think anybody likes ALL the characters, and I doubt Bioware designed the characters with that intention in mind. There are firm favourites from both games, and characters that are less interesting in both games...but these characters will be different for everybody that plays the games. I don't think we can say that one crew is necessarily better than the other...the range of characters is too wide (in my opinion) for such a generalisation.

[JrayM16]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

The same thing happened with Ashley/Kaidan and Liara. And you didn't really get a crystal clear break-off point once it was initiated.

It wasnt quite the same in ME1. They still had some dialogue after you turned them down in ME1, and you could still converse with characters who werent romanceable by your Shepards gender (My Shepard befriended Kaidan for example, whereas Garrus had two conversations and then the loyalty mission stuff).

It is fairly similar, but I stand by my point, and I dont for a second believe the squadmates in ME2 were a major improvement over ME1. At best Tali and Garrus role preserved what I liked about them in ME1, and at worst they occasionally irritate me with their almost complete reliance on romancing them.

JrayM16 wrote...

Except that that was the same amount you
got from anyone in ME1 as well.  I can see how you have a problem, what
I don't get is why you're giving ME1 a free pass on this problem which
it definetely also has but ME2 gets damned by you for it.

See above. ME1 had simialr problems, but due to more dialogue and better execution, I came away feeling I got so much more out of each character. They all had about nearly 6-7 dialogues.

In ME2, I had about at least 2, if pushing 3 dialogues each for Miranda, Jack, Tali and Garrus.

You do the math.

Thane, Samara, Grunt, counted about 4-5 dilaogues w/out romance.  Mordin I counted 6-7.  Legion @ about 4, though I think there's more cause you dont get him till so late.  Not to mention(well we disagree on this so it wont mean much to you) ME2 has better dialogue.  Quality over quantity.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

JrayM16 wrote...

Thane, Samara, Grunt, counted about 4-5 dilaogues w/out romance.  Mordin I counted 6-7.  Legion @ about 4, though I think there's more cause you dont get him till so late.  Not to mention(well we disagree on this so it wont mean much to you) ME2 has better dialogue.  Quality over quantity.

The only dialogue quality ME2 exceeds ME1 in is in terms of the cinematic presentation. Characters were too static in ME1, and in ME2 they walk and talk, and seem more lifelike.

In terms of actual dialogue writing itself, ME2 had less quality and less quantity to boot. Even my favourites Mordin and Samara felt quite lacklustre in comparison to Liara or Wrex for example.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 12 février 2010 - 09:25 .

[Cutlass Jack]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

In terms of actual dialogue itself, ME2 had less quality and less quantity to boot. Even my favourites Mordin and Samara felt quite lacklustre in comparison to Liara or Wrex for example.

You must have played an entirely different set of ME games than I did.

[Nozybidaj]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...

Thane, Samara, Grunt, counted about 4-5 dilaogues w/out romance.  Mordin I counted 6-7.  Legion @ about 4, though I think there's more cause you dont get him till so late.  Not to mention(well we disagree on this so it wont mean much to you) ME2 has better dialogue.  Quality over quantity.

The only dialogue quality ME2 exceeds ME1 in is in terms of the cinematic presentation. Characters were too static in ME1, and in ME2 they walk and talk, and seem more lifelike.

In terms of actual dialogue writing itself, ME2 had less quality and less quantity to boot. Even my favourites Mordin and Samara felt quite lacklustre in comparison to Liara or Wrex for example.

Agreed, the execution of the dialogue and the digital acting I think is superior in ME2 not the dialogue and the characters themselves.  Even agree that aside from Mordin and Samara (I liked Grunt too) the rest of the new characters were rather boring.

[JrayM16]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...

Thane, Samara, Grunt, counted about 4-5 dilaogues w/out romance.  Mordin I counted 6-7.  Legion @ about 4, though I think there's more cause you dont get him till so late.  Not to mention(well we disagree on this so it wont mean much to you) ME2 has better dialogue.  Quality over quantity.

The only dialogue quality ME2 exceeds ME1 in is in terms of the cinematic presentation. Characters were too static in ME1, and in ME2 they walk and talk, and seem more lifelike.

In terms of actual dialogue itself, ME2 had less quality and less quantity to boot. Even my favourites Mordin and Samara felt quite lacklustre in comparison to Liara or Wrex for example.

While Liara gets alot of crap she doesnt really deserve(from me included) I cannot fathom her being more well liked then someone like Mordin.  Even if you do turn down the romance she still sounds like a nervous teen slowly building up to asking out a boy she likes, along w/ weirdly seductive explaantions of asari culture.  Wrex was awesome though.

[Ghostano]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

ShadyKat wrote...

I'd say the new crew is better. The orginal crew was no where near as fleshed out. You can even see that in Garrus and Tali from ME1 to me2, how much they both grew.

Too right. When Garrus and Tali said next to nothing to me in almost the entire game in ME2 because I couldnt/wouldnt romance them, I thought to myself "boy they really have gone to town in ME2 with character development".

Same goes for Miranda and Jack. One they realise you wont let them in your pants, they constantly feed you the "busy" line.

Speaking to Ashley or Liara beyond one or two conversations resulted in a romance. I literally had to ignore Liara in particular NOT to start her romance so I'd be single for ME2.

 You do know you can tell her you are not intrested very easly. There is no romance but she will still talk to you. To be honest I did not know ashley was romancable because I had to read on the forums you could. Do not remeebr what I was doing that killed it but was real easy for me to do it.

 I tihnk that is one of the things I like the most about talking to Samara I can talk to her and learn were she si comeing from. To me the new romance feel more like "booty calls" (yeah have no idea what it is called these days so shot me). Just as I thought I was getting to know Jack she was liek you not going to do me then fine "f*** off". Could it been that hard to have them have more to talk about. Silly me was kindy hopeing to see her go"I know you are going to use me but you seem to act like you care about me more then most." Yeah I know it is lame but is this suppose to be save the galaxy story or cheap porn "banging my way though the galaxy" game

 Oh well just ignore me I know there is something wrong with me since the only teammate I lok foreard to getting is Samara.


 Oh yeah Still pefer the Old Crew with Samara on speed dail

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

You must have played an entirely different set of ME games than I did.

Possibly, since Id love to play this "perfect" ME2 a few folks rave about.

My copy of ME2 had some massive flaws and a hugely disappointing plot by comparison to ME1.

Still, I had been thinking of replaying ME1 soon. Im already sick of ME2, and DLC seems to be taking its sweet time, since crappy bonus gear does nothing for me.

[JrayM16]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

You must have played an entirely different set of ME games than I did.

Possibly, since Id love to play this "perfect" ME2 a few folks rave about.

My copy of ME2 had some massive flaws and a hugely disappointing plot by comparison to ME1.

Still, I had been thinking of replaying ME1 soon. Im already sick of ME2, and DLC seems to be taking its sweet time, since crappy bonus gear does nothing for me.

I'd love to see this "superior ME1 dialogue" you speak of.  My copy of ME1 must be defective cause there's some pretty janky writing and characters, no where near as good as ME2's.

Modifié par JrayM16, 12 février 2010 - 09:36 .

[Blameless77]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Blameless77 wrote...

I liked how the new crew was written, but if I had to choose I guess I would go with the old crew. The new crew (for the most part) feels like a group professionals who are going about a job. The old crew had a kind of "unlikely heroes" vibe going for it that appealed to me.

A cop, a scientist, and some Marines are unlikely heroes...? The bounty hunter, okay, I'll give you that.

Outside of Shepard no one on the original team seems like true hero material when you first encounter them. Ashley starts out as a colony based marine in what is essentially the middle of nowhere. Liara is both extremely young for an Asari and a scientist who has likely had little exposure to combat. Tali is a Quarian on her pilgrimage. Garrus is basically the cop who hates regulations and wants to make a difference.

Compare this to the squad from ME2. The best assassin in the galaxy (Thane), the best mercenary in the galaxy (Zaeed), an ex STG member (Mordin), two operatives for a shadow organization (Jacob and Miranda), a
genetically engineered super soldier (Grunt), etc.

So I'd say the old crew has a bit more 'unlikely hero' thing going for it.

[Nozybidaj]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Possibly, since Id love to play this "perfect" ME2 a few folks rave about.

My copy of ME2 had some massive flaws and a hugely disappointing plot by comparison to ME1.

Still, I had been thinking of replaying ME1 soon. Im already sick of ME2, and DLC seems to be taking its sweet time, since crappy bonus gear does nothing for me.

Think I am doing the same.  I did a SingleShep/tali run and my male & femShep/Liara runs.  Don't really see much of a reason to do any more.

Gonna go back and do a nice long ME1 run to see if I can get this bad taste out of my mouth.

[JrayM16]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

You must have played an entirely different set of ME games than I did.

Possibly, since Id love to play this "perfect" ME2 a few folks rave about.

My copy of ME2 had some massive flaws and a hugely disappointing plot by comparison to ME1.

Still, I had been thinking of replaying ME1 soon. Im already sick of ME2, and DLC seems to be taking its sweet time, since crappy bonus gear does nothing for me.

DLC taking its sweet time huh, cause ME1 is a great example of swift dlc.

Modifié par JrayM16, 12 février 2010 - 09:42 .

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

JrayM16 wrote...

I'd love to see this "superior ME1 dialogue" you speak of.  My copy of ME1 must be defective cause there's some pretty janky writing and characters, no where near as good as ME2's.

I feel sorry for you then. To be stuck with ME2s clunky and contrived squad whos only reason for being there is "TEH SOOEYSYDE MISHIN!!!!"

Ill stick with well rounded and written characters who have meaningful entry points into the plot, and have a much more sizeable impact.

In ME2 they are pawns to be manipulated in a battle against the collectors. In ME1 they are companions on an unfolding mystery.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

JrayM16 wrote...

DLC taking its sweet time huh, cause ME1 is a great example of swift dlc.

Jray please, now youre looking pathetic and desperate. This isnt a 1 up over ME1/2 argument. This is bringing to light ME2s obvious inferiority in the ways they are actually true.

DLC in ME1 sucked. DLC in ME2 sucks until proven otherwise. Thats what it takes now. I will fully respect Bioware and their ability to provide good DLC when its in front of me and Im playing it, and more importantly: enjoying it.

[Nozybidaj]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...

I'd love to see this "superior ME1 dialogue" you speak of.  My copy of ME1 must be defective cause there's some pretty janky writing and characters, no where near as good as ME2's.

I feel sorry for you then. To be stuck with ME2s clunky and contrived squad whos only reason for being there is "TEH SOOEYSYDE MISHIN!!!!"

Ill stick with well rounded and written characters who have meaningful entry points into the plot, and have a much more sizeable impact.

In ME2 they are pawns to be manipulated in a battle against the collectors. In ME1 they are companions on an unfolding mystery.

This, the crew in ME1 were companions.  The crew in ME2 are resources.

[JrayM16]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...

DLC taking its sweet time huh, cause ME1 is a great example of swift dlc.

Jray please, now youre looking pathetic and desperate. This isnt a 1 up over ME1/2 argument. This is bringing to light ME2s obvious inferiority in the ways they are actually true.

DLC in ME1 sucked. DLC in ME2 sucks until proven otherwise. Thats what it takes now. I will fully respect Bioware and their ability to provide good DLC when its in front of me and Im playing it, and more importantly: enjoying it.

Not meant to contribute to actual discussion.  It was just an easy dig.

Anyway, back to primary discussion. 

[Lord Atlia]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...

I'd love to see this "superior ME1 dialogue" you speak of.  My copy of ME1 must be defective cause there's some pretty janky writing and characters, no where near as good as ME2's.

I feel sorry for you then. To be stuck with ME2s clunky and contrived squad whos only reason for being there is "TEH SOOEYSYDE MISHIN!!!!"

Ill stick with well rounded and written characters who have meaningful entry points into the plot, and have a much more sizeable impact.

In ME2 they are pawns to be manipulated in a battle against the collectors. In ME1 they are companions on an unfolding mystery.

This, the crew in ME1 were companions.  The crew in ME2 are resources.

Really!?...Really? Because right now my Shepard counts Tali, Joker, Chakwas, and Garrus as true friends seeing as they didn't bail on him when he needed their help. 

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Nozybidaj wrote...
Gonna go back and do a nice long ME1 run to see if I can get this bad taste out of my mouth.

Likewise. Its amazing how much of a chore ME2 is to replay.

Probably since a massive portion of the game is "take cover/emerge from cover/shoot/return to cover". Would be more bearable if powers were as worthwhile as they were in ME1, but on higher difficulties Bioware deicded it would be a good idea to break biotics, and render them useless in ME2s eternal battle of rock/paper/scissors combat.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 12 février 2010 - 09:56 .

[Nozybidaj]

Lord Atlia wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

This, the crew in ME1 were companions.  The crew in ME2 are resources.

Really!?...Really? Because right now my Shepard counts Tali, Joker, Chakwas, and Garrus as true friends seeing as they didn't bail on him when he needed their help. 

In relation to the new crew, you are correct.  I tend to count Tali and Garrus and the others as part of the Old Crew.

[Nozybidaj]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...
Gonna go back and do a nice long ME1 run to see if I can get this bad taste out of my mouth.

Likewise. Its amazing how much of a chore ME2 is to replay.

Probably since a massive portion of the game is "take cover/emerge from cover/shoot/return to cover". Would be more bearable if powers were as worthwhile as they were in ME1, but on higher difficulties Bioware deicded it would be a good idea to break biotics, and render them useless in ME2s eternal battle of rock/paper/scissors combat.

I actually like the combat and mechanics in ME2.  The story and the characters just aren't strong enough to carry multiple play throughs.  The simple fact that there is no Liara means this game will be collecting lots of dust.

[JrayM16]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...
Gonna go back and do a nice long ME1 run to see if I can get this bad taste out of my mouth.

Likewise. Its amazing how much of a chore ME2 is to replay.

Probably since a massive portion of the game is "take cover/emerge from cover/shoot/return to cover". Would be more bearable if powers were as worthwhile as they were in ME1, but on higher difficulties Bioware deicded it would be a good idea to break biotics, and render them useless in ME2s eternal battle of rock/paper/scissors combat.

While I agree biotics were nerfed, I actually like the whole "rock, paper, scissors" gameplay because it forces you to have a ablanced squad and to actually utilize squaddie's abilities to succeed.  It feels far more tactical.  Could it ahve been better balanced, yes, is it perfect, no, is it broken, no.