43 réponses à ce sujet

[highcastle]

Let's not forget that no one can predict when a Blight will start, either. (Well, except Flemeth, but there's only one of her running around.) You need Grey Wardens at all times so you can be ready for the Blight. As others have said, it's a matter of having reserves. Yes, they sacrifice quite a bit to be what they are. I'm sure they consider it necessary to preparing for a Blight.

[lqutois]

No actually they wouldn't. Human history teaches us otherwise. You seem to be not apprecaiting that the fluf is part of the game. ESPECIALLY in role playing games. The sense of urgency and fear comes from the fluff as much as anything else. No we don't see the darkspawn killing dwarves but we here about it and we see the two cities they are in now and the places they were. Also yes the dwarves currently are not afraid of being overrun all the darkspawn are focused on the surface not the underground. Play on nightmare if you don't think the game is hard enough...I find it plenty hard at that level. Remember listen to the conversations read the notes and the history it PART of the game not separate from it. This is a role playing game not a role playing light shooting game like mass effect (who I think your avatar is from)

[T-Kay]

lqutois wrote...

No actually they wouldn't. Human history teaches us otherwise. You seem to be not apprecaiting that the fluf is part of the game. ESPECIALLY in role playing games. The sense of urgency and fear comes from the fluff as much as anything else. No we don't see the darkspawn killing dwarves but we here about it and we see the two cities they are in now and the places they were. Also yes the dwarves currently are not afraid of being overrun all the darkspawn are focused on the surface not the underground. Play on nightmare if you don't think the game is hard enough...I find it plenty hard at that level. Remember listen to the conversations read the notes and the history it PART of the game not separate from it. This is a role playing game not a role playing light shooting game like mass effect (who I think your avatar is from)

It's kind of foolish to attack my RPing experience based on my avatar. It's probably safe to say I have more RPG experience than most of the people here since I was playing role playing games before some of them were even born.

The difficulty level has nothing to do with the atmosphere the game creates. Besides going about fluff with a codex system doesn't really do it for me. Sure you read stuff here and there, but with hundreds of codexes listed only as numbers it's impossible to find the one you're looking for. I rarely use the codex system unless its a quest related one. It takes a fair amount of time to find the correct one. It's just really badly done.

The game is perfect for creating atmosphere and I don't want to taste that atmosphere by picking up a codec. It's like trying to envision WWII by blundering around in a library. No it's a game, it can show you. So it should do that. Codexes should be used only as background fluff, not as a game story catalyst.

Modifié par T-Kay, 12 février 2010 - 10:32 .

[Sabriana]

Kolgar's "Your nightmare is my every-day." Pretty much tells me that all is not well in the dwarven kingdom. They are losing ground which they have to constantly battle for to regain.
As for the companions not dying, I RP with the book in mind:

*****Book Spoiler******


******there'll be spoilers*****


*******last chance to avert your eyes************

The mages gave Maric a concoction that made him temporarily immune to darkspawn blood. Mind you, not a GW, but the blood didn't sicken him. Much like the Kennel master can cure the sick Mabari with potions and that flower.


*******phew! Spoiler over************

So there are ways to cure it if done early enough, as well as a temp. immunity.

Modifié par Sabriana, 12 février 2010 - 11:17 .

[nYshak]

@ T-Kay: Codex entries are part of the game for me. They serve the purpose of letting us know about all the things that did not make it into the game because of real life limitations. Yes, we don't see dwarves fighting darkspawn, yes Orzammar does not seem to be at risk from from an external source when we enter the city. But we know from the history (codex) of the world that the dwarves are slowly dying out. The Legion of the Dead, while pretty elite, have lost their fortress Bownammar to the Spawn, just about 30 years ago. The golems are gone. The Deep Roads collapsed. Its pretty hard to NOT get the impression that the dwarves have been losing this war for centuries if you keep track of all the game has to over.

Modifié par nYshak, 12 février 2010 - 12:01 .

[T-Kay]

Maybe they should have enabled opening a codex by default so you are forced to at least look at it. As it is now, the blinking button at the bottom is easily overlooked and once it's gone (after seconds) it's nearly impossible to find said codex in the codex system.

Still what they did is make an empty story and to fill in the gaps they added codex. It's not impossible to put all this stuff in the game itself. I find it discouraging that everyone always looks for how things aren't possible. I think even Morrigan comments on that in the game. Look for solutions people. Ways to go forward, ways to improve. Always accepting what you get is never going to help anyone.

Modifié par T-Kay, 12 février 2010 - 12:06 .

[Darkannex]

I disagree. I think they did not make an empty story. What they did is give you a present world - and offered you codex entries for those that want to learn more. The entries are optional and SHOULD be optional. Im sorry, I don't play a game to be interrupted constantly by popups - my browsing experience online gets enough of that.



If you choose to 'overlook' the indication that an entry has been added, that is your own choice. At the end of each location I'll normally go through the codex and see which entries are new (they blink for you).



Im not sure what you are expecting really, Orzammar overrun entirely? That would make the Origins there a bit difficult - and not truly add to the storyline IMO. The Nobles in Orzammar are in the most protected center of everything. Of course that would be the only 'safe' ish place. Eventually that too will fall - but it will be the last place to go. Like a castle keep. Orzammar's noble quarter is a fortress.



The dwarves have been living with the darkspawn for as long as they remember. Of course they don't view it with alarm, denial is a potent thing. You become insensitive to the threat, because the threat is always there. In this, I think it was well written. You can understand in part why the dwarves are going to die out-like Harrowmont-they are trapped in the past.

[Sabriana]

Morrigan is snarking Allistair with her "if we stand here thinking how things are not possible" remark

The dwarven dilemma is pretty well impressed upon players throughout the Orzammar quest-line. The PC can ask a lot of questions, the codex is good source of information, and so are the books (codexes) in the shaperate.
Branka's ranting all through, and especially at the end is also a good indication of the dwarfs being in danger of losing everything, so is the conversation between Oghren and Shale:

• Shale: I do get it, yes. My question is this: had the Anvil
  of the Void not been destroyed, does it believe the dwarves would have
  used it?
• Oghren: Hmm. You mean to create more golems? Oh yes, faster than you could squish a nug.
• Shale: Even knowing the agony that it caused? They would still inflict it on others?
• Oghren: No need to inflict it. There'd be plenty ready
  and willing to sign up, just as you did. There's fewer and fewer of us
  each year, and the darkspawn never run out. If it meant saving
  Orzammar? There'd be plenty who'd become a golem, sure.
• Shale: Does it think it was wrong to destroy the Anvil, then?
• Oghren: (Sigh) No... sometimes people need to be kept from doing stupid things, even for good reasons.

I agree, it isn't presented on a silver platter, but it is certainly talked about, and can be read up upon.

[Arkwright99]

T-Kay wrote...

why not go with the fluff and let your partymembers and NPC's die? You'll stay true to the fluff and you'll have a more interesting game alltogether. I think the Dalish origin story involves tainting by darkspawn and having the Grey Warden ritual being the cure. So all in all you could still make Grey Wardens out of your party if they became tainted. I still wonder why none of them were set up to become Grey Wardens. Like Morrigan said, even Alistair became one.

The reason you can't make any of your companions Grey Wardens is because - as Alistair says when you ask him about it - you don't know how to perform the Joining. Yes it involves Darkspawn blood and lyrium(?) but there's a big magic component required and Alistair isn't a mage and doesn't know the formula. Riordan does, which is why Loghain can be recruited after the Landsmeet, but before that it's simply not an option.

However, there are gaps in the game as you say. Why is it that your party can enter the Brascilian Forest and yet at no point do any of you get infected with the werewolf curse? Given the number of werewolves you fight, it's unrealistic for that not to be a real danger and it would have added a much needed sense of urgency if you suddenly had a personal reason for lifting the curse rather than only doing it because you need (or want) the Dalish Elves to help fight the Blight.

[T-Kay]

Guys you cling to pointless aspects of the game just so you can tell me why things cannot be done. By changing small things they become possible.



- Having an option to turn popup codexes off and on would solve the issue.

- Allowing you to find a way to do the ritual solves that problem

- Letting Orzammar be overrun is never what I said, but it can still be done in the later stages. Origins only go until Ostagar for the most part.



Geez you guys. No one is going to win a war with your attitude. "We can't do this because it's written here. Boohoo." That's the spirit!

[RangerSG]

T-Kay wrote...

Guys you cling to pointless aspects of the game just so you can tell me why things cannot be done. By changing small things they become possible.

- Having an option to turn popup codexes off and on would solve the issue.
- Allowing you to find a way to do the ritual solves that problem
- Letting Orzammar be overrun is never what I said, but it can still be done in the later stages. Origins only go until Ostagar for the most part.

Geez you guys. No one is going to win a war with your attitude. "We can't do this because it's written here. Boohoo." That's the spirit!

T-Kay,

There's no sense Orzammar is losing? Do you not talk to anyone in Orzammar? The whole city gives off the "doomed" vibe of Minas Tirith in Lord of the Rings. Anyone who is willing to look past the politics will tell you the city is going to die if things don't change.

Or did you not hear Oghren when he said Ortan Thaig and Aeducan Thaig used to be "inside" Orzammar? How does that not convey the notion of a Kingdom in decline?

Even Bownammar used to be inside Orzammar's defenses. Now it's a waste. So yes, there's clear evidence the Dwarves are losing.

[Darkannex]

T-Kay wrote...

Guys you cling to pointless aspects of the game just so you can tell me why things cannot be done. By changing small things they become possible.

- Having an option to turn popup codexes off and on would solve the issue.
- Allowing you to find a way to do the ritual solves that problem
- Letting Orzammar be overrun is never what I said, but it can still be done in the later stages. Origins only go until Ostagar for the most part.

Geez you guys. No one is going to win a war with your attitude. "We can't do this because it's written here. Boohoo." That's the spirit!

Now you are just being silly. I'll credit you with not actively trying to troll, but seeing your post history leads me to believe you're not here except to ruffle feathers. 
 - The option to turn off popups solves the problem for you. I do not have a problem, as I realize that there is a codex entry there that flashes in big white letters in the CENTER OF MY SCREEN that an entry has been added, and even gives me a link to click on to bring me to that entry.  While I don't see adding this option as a problem - they really DO make it hard to miss that you've gotten a codex entry.  PEBKAC? 
- Why would I want to make my fellows Grey Wardens? Who even says they want to be? I've been a recruit for less than a month and I'm going to try to force a right of conscription on Morrigan, Lei, Sten? Um, no. Plus, with the GW being suddenly outlawed, I don't see us being able to function in any other way than clandestined. I agree the fact noone in the party gets ill from Darkspawn blood is sort of a fubar concept not explained in game, but I really do not see Morrigan puckering up for some Joining action. 
- My comment was in regards to your statement that Orzammar lacks a sense of urgency. As you seem to think big and bombastic options are the only things to have 'impact', I went to the extreme. I already allowed that losing only Lothering in the Blight was fairly deflating - but in a gameplay aspect it makes sense because closing off too much of the map closes and paints you into a corner. Lots of players like to revisit areas to finish side-quests. If we kept losing areas it would stunt alot of playstyles. Could it be done? Sure. But you are not going to find a solution to make everyone happy. 

As for 'pointless' aspects - you yourself are citing the aspects, we are merely responding to them. Also, changing a million different small things makes them stop being small. Noone is arguing this is 'Great Expectations' in game form. In terms of plot and playstyle there is nothing earth-shatteringly new presented. This is, however; a highly enjoyable game that gets many things right. 

Modifié par Darkannex, 12 février 2010 - 03:50 .

[T-Kay]

Darkannex wrote...

T-Kay wrote...

Guys you cling to pointless aspects of the game just so you can tell me why things cannot be done. By changing small things they become possible.

- Having an option to turn popup codexes off and on would solve the issue.
- Allowing you to find a way to do the ritual solves that problem
- Letting Orzammar be overrun is never what I said, but it can still be done in the later stages. Origins only go until Ostagar for the most part.

Geez you guys. No one is going to win a war with your attitude. "We can't do this because it's written here. Boohoo." That's the spirit!

Now you are just being silly. I'll credit you with not actively trying to troll, but seeing your post history leads me to believe you're not here except to ruffle feathers. 
 - The option to turn off popups solves the problem for you. I do not have a problem, as I realize that there is a codex entry there that flashes in big white letters in the CENTER OF MY SCREEN that an entry has been added, and even gives me a link to click on to bring me to that entry.  While I don't see adding this option as a problem - they really DO make it hard to miss that you've gotten a codex entry.  PEBKAC? 
- Why would I want to make my fellows Grey Wardens? Who even says they want to be? I've been a recruit for less than a month and I'm going to try to force a right of conscription on Morrigan, Lei, Sten? Um, no. Plus, with the GW being suddenly outlawed, I don't see us being able to function in any other way than clandestined. I agree the fact noone in the party gets ill from Darkspawn blood is sort of a fubar concept not explained in game, but I really do not see Morrigan puckering up for some Joining action. 
- My comment was in regards to your statement that Orzammar lacks a sense of urgency. As you seem to think big and bombastic options are the only things to have 'impact', I went to the extreme. I already allowed that losing only Lothering in the Blight was fairly deflating - but in a gameplay aspect it makes sense because closing off too much of the map closes and paints you into a corner. Lots of players like to revisit areas to finish side-quests. If we kept losing areas it would stunt alot of playstyles. Could it be done? Sure. But you are not going to find a solution to make everyone happy. 

As for 'pointless' aspects - you yourself are citing the aspects, we are merely responding to them. Also, changing a million different small things makes them stop being small. Noone is arguing this is 'Great Expectations' in game form. In terms of plot and playstyle there is nothing earth-shatteringly new presented. This is, however; a highly enjoyable game that gets many things right.

You don't have to defend what you did. It just seems that whenever someone voices an opinion on this forum that is not directly in line and maybe even opposed to the game or it's mechanics people claim it's impossible to execute. "it's too much programming work". "Alistair said this and that", "The orzammar origin story makes it impossible". Those are pointless arguments and have nothing to do with what is possible or not. I understand the fact that you can't make everyone happy. 

The codex system is annoying. Yeah you get an "in your face" message that you obtained a new codex. But I'm doing something else, exploring and looting and killing. The message is more of an annoyance and the link disappears too fast. That and the way it is listed in the library makes it an enormous chore to read it. "I know I read something about this earlier in a codex... let's see, was it number 165? Nope, 167 nope. Wait was it listed under number 14, nope... nevermind.". Seriously if you go through the trouble of creating all this fluff at least allow easy access and reference.

Yeah people in Orzammar talk about doom and destruction and such, but they're just hanging about. The city is not "alive". Nothing happens. At least in Lothering I had the idea that people were preparing for the coming blight.

I agree that the game is very enjoyable. I would not have created so many characters if I thought it sucked. Much of my criticism is just however, perhaps worded slightly too harsh, but that's the way I am. I do miss the weaponry and different fighting styles though. You get three melee styles and a bow and spell style. Of which the spell style is the most customizable. The three melee styles are all built on using swords and daggers. The game has maces and axes and mauls, but the animation is not built for them. You can't stab someone with a maul or a mace. For instance, take a look at the flurry two weaponstyle talent. It always does the same thing no matter what type of weapon you have equipped. I also miss halberds, morning-stars and spears. I truly hope DA2 has more depth in terms of gameplay. It just feels the game really wasn't finished when they released it. Let's not forget animation of women. They move exactly like men, it's appalling to watch.

At any rate. There still is a big Grey Warden continuation issue that is never addressed in the game. I was really hoping to find out more about them. Perhaps in a second game.

Modifié par T-Kay, 12 février 2010 - 06:04 .

[Addai]

Why is the continuation of the Grey Wardens an issue? In-game you learn that they used to be much more powerful, but have declined as people have forgotten how terrible Blights are. Nevertheless their vigilance is necessary because they can sense a Blight long before anyone else knows it's happening. The sacrifice they make in order to maintain that vigilance is a hard one. However, any military has training deaths, especially in the Special Forces- which is what the Grey Wardens are.  Considering that a Blight can literally destroy the world, losing a few recruits to the Joining is a small price to pay.

As for Orzammar, in-game their most pressing issue is their lack of a king. They are actually experiencing a respite from darkspawn activity because most of the darkspawn have moved/ are massing to move to the surface. Their sense of doom and decline is a more long-term, pervasive one and most clearly to be seen in the desperation to find the Anvil. All of this is easily grasped from in-game conversation. The guard at the Deep Roads comment on the fact that they are noticing a respite from darkspawn attacks, and you get to inform him that it's because the darkspawn have moved on the surface. Alistair comments that the Deep Roads are actually safer during Blights.  Ruck tells you that most of the dark ones have moved on to the south, leaving Ortan Thaig comparatively empty of darkspawn.  I don't know how you could miss this, actually.

I do think that codex entries are hard to find once they've been logged.

Modifié par Addai67, 12 février 2010 - 06:09 .

[Vicious]

The reason why your party members don't get sick/die from fighting Darkspawn and neither does anyone else... well it's real simple.



Gameplay > Story.



If your characters were poisoned by Darkspawn blood, well then the casual gamer would get butthurt when Leliana died because he took her into every single Darkspawn-related battle. If your characters got addicted to Lyrium potions because you overused them and then couldn't find anymore and found a certain battle too hard without them, well we can't have that, can we?



Real simple. In DAO Gameplay trumped Story. Which is kind of sad in a Bioware game. I was pleased in Mass Effect 2, at least, they stuck to their guns and let the player reap what he sowed up to the point of allowing their main character die.



That said, I hope DAO2 will take it to 11, as it were.

[Darkannex]

I've read your past complaints Re: the codex system. I agree definitely that there could be some improvement. I think you hit the nail on the head when you say your criticism comes across as too harsh. It comes off very much unconstructive. Instead of "this would have been more effective if..." you pretty much say "this sucks". Im stretching it a bit here to prove a point.



People are going to have different opinions. I felt as well that some towns felt too 'empty' and devoid. As I am a PC player I can mod to make it look a bit more populated. That makes it somewhat better. I feel that your critique of Orzammar is still incorrect, but that is your opinion, and you've right to have it. I subscribe to the Dwarves being stuck between then and now, and refusing to see fully how close to death they are. They talk about it, but still seem in the stage of denial that happens in the midst of cataclysm. The signs are there clear as day - but the Nobles still often pretend that nothing is amiss and there is plenty of time to fiddle as Rome burns.



When people say that things weren't done due to this and this reason, or that and that reason...it sometimes is backed up with proof. But not every eventuality can always be covered because people are just too different. It's why online MMO's release a patch and generally have to hotfix it. Because someone does something off the wall creative and suddenly find an exploit or some unforseen way of doing something that the devs did not consider. The same for DAO.

So while it is fun and interesting to think of what COULD be - the fact is that things are as they are. I feel that they do a credible job of trying to cover as many angles as posible. Perfect? Never.

[bzombo]

i think you're being too vague in your criticism, t-kay. you basically want everyone to think what you think is correct. when you're given solid reasoning for something, you blow it off as finding a reason not to do it. at the rate you're going, it would not even be the same game. the lack of infection is in large part because we'd have no one left to use. another thing to consider is the time it may take for a tiny amount of darkspawn blood to infect someone may take longer than the timeline of the game, which is roughly speaking about a year. maybe sten died when he gets back home. who knows? also, alistair and shale are immune. i don't think a rock can get infected by the taint. at least, not by ingesting a drop of blood. as far as the grey wardens when there is no blight, how can you have grey wardens during a blight if they disappear beforehand? the wardens are always fighting darkspawn. i think you're asking things of the game that it can't be unless it were a book, which it is not. there are spoilers from "the calling" that could also provide reasons for npcs not getting sick.

[darkmax1974]

just one question my fellow players.... Are you seeking too much realism in a high fantasy game?

[Darkannex]

In this day and age-I do not feel it too much to ask to have a fantasy game adhere to the rules it sets...so no, I do not think I am looking for too much realism I can suspend disbelief with the best of them - but if the game says something - then the game should stick with it.