77 réponses à ce sujet

[Malanek]

The only companion I am struggling to see any reason to recruit (other than to see the content), is Morinth.

[Erucolindo]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

 Seriously, how the heck can I justify bringing this crazy woman on my ship as a paragon?  I've tried and tried to come up with a good in-game reason and I just can't do it.  "She's powerful" and "I feel sorry for her" don't cut it.  I'm paragon, but not a gullible idiot.  I know she's not as crazy as she looks and once you get to know her she's not that bad, but my character doesn't know that when she meets her.  Help me out here.

I play the game first as a nearly pure paragon. I made some choices that gained me some minor renegage points, but basically I played as a pure Paragon, continuing as a hero from ME1.

So I understand your delima, but as you yourself stated your character basically knows nothing about Jack. On the surface she seems violent and angry, but you have no idea why. So you free her because you need her to help suceed at the suicide mission, but you can also find out what makes her tick and reach out to her. When you first meet her, you promise to give her data files (as a paragon) and you keep that promise once on the ship.

Once you gain the loyalty of any team member, they will not betray you. So your worries of her going nuts against you are gone at that point. 

As a paragon my hardest person to except was Zaeed, and his loyalty mission was even harder. Because of my Paragon state, I failed at the mission but was able to steal convince him to stay with me and be loyal. Even though I denied him his revenge, and only used him on like one other mission, he survived the suicide mission and I had him escort the survivors back to Normandy.

So think of it this way I guess: You are going to recruit everyone in his files, reguardless of what kind of person they may be because you need their help to save billions. Once you have them on your team, you can convince them to see the light, bring out there calmer less evil sides.

As a Paragon, starting out with Miranda is problematic cause she's a die hard cerberus girl and does a very renegade action when you first meet her, but by the time of end game, she was seeing things my way and quit cerberus. I'm willing to bet that had I been a renegade and won her over, she would still be loyal to Cerberus.

They give us party memembers ready to be shaped to our thinking, at least in this game.

[DarthCaine]

'cos you must recruit her to advance the plot?

And you're not paragon, you're paragon stupid (in Shepard's words: the more people you have on your side the bigger your chances of success)

Besides, why would you want to miss out on parts of the game?

Modifié par DarthCaine, 11 février 2010 - 10:09 .

[Maj Gant]

Jack brings a much different perspective to the game. I found her character and back story to be better than the others and less cookie cutter. I think Bioware did a better job with her than they did with Miranda who was supposed to be a more central character. If you are a paragon you can go on the belief that she was forced to be who she is and that makes her worthy of redemption. As a Vanguard Paragon I spend the second half of the game, including the ending, with her and Grunt at my side. Although she is opposite of me in just about ever way, I am extremely glad Bioware choose to include her. If everyone is going to look and act like me, the game would be pretty boring.

[Skilled Seeker]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

You need all of the help you can get, that justifies it.

Being a Paragon doesn't mean you won't recruit possibly dangerous people, you had Wrex on your team afterall.

If you're a good leader than you would know how to keep anyone in line.

You don't have to have Wrex on your team. You can finish ME1 with only 3 squadmates remaining (No Garrus, Wrex or Kaiden/Ash).

And you don't need Jack. Don't recruit her if you don't want to.

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 11 février 2010 - 10:08 .

[UBER GEEKZILLA]

beacuse u need all the help u can get fer the suicide mission..dosent matter if jack is a psycho or a **** if shes a powerful ally u need her for this..and to be honest shes not such a bad person if u get to know her better
after all it makes sense shes the way she is..she was abused all her life

[raist747]

Just throw her down a tech tunnel later.

[marshalleck]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

77boy84 wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

Why recruit Thane, he is a cold blooded assassin?

Why recruit Samara, she has a code that allow's her to kill any one who does any thing she view's as wrong before she even has all the fact's about what happened?

I agree with Samara's code almost entirely.  Plus she swears an oath to serve me.  Thane himself explains things perfectly "assassin's are weapons.  If you kill someone with your gun do you hold the gun responsible. No one hired him to kill me.  In fact, I hired HIM."

Thane's gun arguement is so silly...
Guns can't think and choose. Thane can say "Oh, it's not my fault!" but at the end of the day he chose to take on jobs to kill people. He is not innocent.

Not in his philosophy, it doesn't.  What he is basically saying is "I kill without malice."  To me, killing with malice is the definition of murder.  Anyway, he also proves he only assassinates really horrible people like Nassana.  And as I said, I play a kind of Garrus lite character.  She's all for sniping folks like Nassana between the eyes form 300 yards.  Anyway, Thane isn't the point of the thread.  Suffice to say I have been able to justify bringing Thane, but not Jack.  I think what that other person said about Jack also hating Cerberus is the best reason so far.

Thane's "justification" is pure sophistry, pseudo-philosophical mumbo jumbo that allows him to deny any agency in the affairs of killing people. It's hogwash.

Not that I disapprove of killing really, sometimes bad things need to happen to bad people. That doesn't mean one can't take responsibility for their actions.

[Valmy]

Maj Gant wrote...

I found her character and back story to be better than the others and less cookie cutter.

Really?  She was horribly abused and then went out and broke stuff until she was locked up.  I mean she wasn't the worst character in the world but...

Modifié par Valmy, 11 février 2010 - 10:13 .

[Llandaryn]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

 Seriously, how the heck can I justify bringing this crazy woman on my ship as a paragon?  I've tried and tried to come up with a good in-game reason and I just can't do it.  "She's powerful" and "I feel sorry for her" don't cut it.  I'm paragon, but not a gullible idiot.  I know she's not as crazy as she looks and once you get to know her she's not that bad, but my character doesn't know that when she meets her.  Help me out here.

You are now working for Cerberus. As a Paragon, you are suspicious of everything The Illusive Man tells you. But you don't want him to know that you're as suspicious as you are. You decide to play along with his games for now. You decide to recruit the team-members that he suggests, to give him the impression you're playing along.

If you recruited Jack, please turn to page 12. If you did not recruit Jack, turn to page 42.

[Sharn01]

Thane only kill's people he considers deserving when you meet him. He has killed many innocent's in the past, at least that is what I gathered from talking to him, he turned over a new leaf so to speak at some point in his life, probably after his wife's death or during their meeting.

Besides, you do not know his philosophy until you actually recruit him and talk to him, before that he is just some assassin.

Modifié par Sharn01, 11 février 2010 - 10:17 .

[Sharn01]

Apologies for the double post.

Modifié par Sharn01, 11 février 2010 - 10:18 .

[Conway044]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

boardnfool86 wrote...

she's a powerful biotic, one of only two who can successfully complete a task during the suicide mission... she's useful indeed

metagaming though...That's the problem.  I can only justify it via metagaming.  I hate metagaming.

Your information on Jack prior to recruiting her is that she is a biotic with a criminal past.  So either your character refuses to work with anyone with a criminal past (this removes most of your companions) or you are in fact using your OOC knowledge of Jack and her personality to justify your dislike for her. 

So metagaming is ok if you don't like the character I guess? 

[Wynne]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

 Seriously, how the heck can I justify bringing this crazy woman on my ship as a paragon?  I've tried and tried to come up with a good in-game reason and I just can't do it.  "She's powerful" and "I feel sorry for her" don't cut it.  I'm paragon, but not a gullible idiot.  I know she's not as crazy as she looks and once you get to know her she's not that bad, but my character doesn't know that when she meets her.  Help me out here.

Holy crap, this is nothing. Try Dragon Age. Try finding a reason to take Zevran along. I like the character, but I could never find a good motivation for keeping him alive with how I play. The Subject Zero question is so easy.

How about because the prison ship Purgatory is owned by a madman who wants to imprison YOU, a complete innocent, for CASH? You think you know why he imprisoned Jack, you're going to take his word for it all? Someone who eats through new employees in a sort of revolving door to hell, making them brutalize others until they lose their humanity and then leaving the machine as bad as any convict themselves? Yeah, Jack's a prisoner... but how do you know she really deserved imprisonment if he would try to imprison and auction off a hero like the great Paragon Commander Shepard?

How about because she doesn't attack YOU on sight, only the mechs and guards, implying that she's more scared and defending herself rather than firing off biotics just for the sheer fun of trying to kill things? She's reasonable and you can talk to her even though she HATES Cerberus with all her heart--if she were truly CRAZY, rather than just an aggressive fighter, why would she be talking and not trying to blow you out the windows with the power of her mind? When you're on a freaking Cerberus ship?

How about because you're wise enough to know that it's not the loudest barking dog you have to be afraid of, it's the quiet and cagey one?

How about because you see something buried deep in her eyes--something sad and lost and pained, something that she squashes down and tries to pretend isn't there? Something like a grown-up Talitha, if you're a colonist. Something like the animal desperation of Toombs when you first saw him.

She's covered in tattooes, she has a scar on her lip, her head is shaved, she's got this fierce caged-animal look and you can hear in her voice that she's trying to pass off a defense as an offense. She's obviously a person who's lived through a lot. Any Paragon Shepard, if astute, can read her body language, face, and voice for all the subtle signs of trauma.

If a person was brainwashed, tortured, beaten like the prisoner you see being beaten in the first cell... is it really their fault if they go a little insane from it? There's no way to know if you just kill them. And if they're not attacking innocents willy-nilly, if they see that you're holding back and they hold back too--why is there any reason to judge that person an insane, dangerous, evil criminal in a place like Purgatory where the guards are on average just as bad?

Killing a truly sociopathic priss who had everything and murdered or raped because they thought it was fun to play with others like toys is one thing. Prematurely killing a damaged human being who could recuperate and see reason is quite another.

Besides, who do you want to bring on a suicide mission, heavenly innocent humanitarian saints or people for whom doing a last act of good might be a form of redemption for all the evils they'd done before? At worst, you're taking out the problem anyway, just a little later down the line. At best, you're giving them a second chance at knowing what it's like to be a hero instead of a villain. Look at what Helena Blake does with her life. Sometimes a person on the borderline can change, can learn for the first time what it's like to be constructive and productive instead of wallowing in cynicism and looking out for themselves.

Thane is dying. Samara has lived a long time. Jacob and Miranda signed on for this. Mordin is very old for his species. Grunt was bred in a tank and is a freaking krogan supersoldier. Garrus and Tali believe in your mission hard because they know you and they'll watch your back. And Jack... yeah, she's a convict. So what? These are the kinds of people you find for a mission like this, not people who have children and families and long lives to look forward to. Not people who've never gotten their hands dirty. Not the best and brightest of the Alliance, which is trying to pretend the Reaper thing never happened anyway--those people would tell you to screw off the second they heard the word Cerberus!

You take what you can get. You take the best and the hardest, not the brightest and the shiniest. So you take Jack. You give her a chance instead of just shooting her in the head before you have a chance to know anything about what she's really like in terms of actions vs. the big overblown "tough guy" talk. Instead of judging a scared person not even attacking you to be senseless, crazy evil, you avoid carrying out a murder that would be senseless, crazy evil.

Seriously, if you're really this into the roleplaying, I don't see why it's hard to come up with a non-metagamey reason to take her along. Paragons build and heal. That's their good side. Why would you just want to just shoot her before even asking whether you should?

Modifié par Wynne, 11 février 2010 - 11:11 .

[Mondo47]

Criminals are expendable... remember the Dirty Dozen? She's a mean little thing and losing her wouldn't mean squat in the grand scheme of things. Almost everyone the Illusive Man forwards to you is either expendable, an expert in a required field, or a Cerberus employee. He's just hedging his bets on no-one coming back at all.

[Malanek]

Good answers Wynne.

[sergio71785]

The main reason is because you can't recruit Tali until all 4 original team members are recruited.

[Hepzi3]

Her romance (particularly the end scene) is the best in ME2.

[Wynne]

Thanks, Malanek.

[Maj Gant]

Valmy wrote...

Maj Gant wrote...

I found her character and back story to be better than the others and less cookie cutter.

Really?  She was horribly abused and then went out and broke stuff until she was locked up.  I mean she wasn't the worst character in the world but...

If you played her personal quest you would see there is more to it than that.  I am not saying it was as good as it could have been, but the fact is that there are so many characters that Bioware didn't do anyone justice.  I found her to be the most "different" which made it more interesting as a result.  Personally I would prefer Bioware to have fewer deeper characters and interactions versus a huge shallow party.  DA:O was somewhat similar in that I felt I needed a social coordinator to keep my massive personal army in check.  I found Morrigan to be the most interesting there and perhaps Jack isn't too far from her.  There would be no real difference between say Miranda and Tali as a love interest, for example.  The female characters, except Jack, had a lot more similarities than differences.  Jack could be flat out evil or potentially redeemable.  I didn't feel the same was really true of the others. 

Modifié par Maj Gant, 12 février 2010 - 01:00 .

[ToiletBomber]

marshalleck wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

77boy84 wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

Why recruit Thane, he is a cold blooded assassin?

Why recruit Samara, she has a code that allow's her to kill any one who does any thing she view's as wrong before she even has all the fact's about what happened?

I agree with Samara's code almost entirely.  Plus she swears an oath to serve me.  Thane himself explains things perfectly "assassin's are weapons.  If you kill someone with your gun do you hold the gun responsible. No one hired him to kill me.  In fact, I hired HIM."

Thane's gun arguement is so silly...
Guns can't think and choose. Thane can say "Oh, it's not my fault!" but at the end of the day he chose to take on jobs to kill people. He is not innocent.

Not in his philosophy, it doesn't.  What he is basically saying is "I kill without malice."  To me, killing with malice is the definition of murder.  Anyway, he also proves he only assassinates really horrible people like Nassana.  And as I said, I play a kind of Garrus lite character.  She's all for sniping folks like Nassana between the eyes form 300 yards.  Anyway, Thane isn't the point of the thread.  Suffice to say I have been able to justify bringing Thane, but not Jack.  I think what that other person said about Jack also hating Cerberus is the best reason so far.

Thane's "justification" is pure sophistry, pseudo-philosophical mumbo jumbo that allows him to deny any agency in the affairs of killing people. It's hogwash.

Not that I disapprove of killing really, sometimes bad things need to happen to bad people. That doesn't mean one can't take responsibility for their actions.

Oh, pure nonsense. There's no "denying any agency" in in his line of work. Not only does Thane take responsibility for his actions, he seeks atonement for each murder he incurs.

Cultural relativism dictates just that - philosophies and beliefs differ greatly among different peoples, presumably wildly across inter-galactic space-faring races (even if Bioware made the races made to resemble human stereotypes).

Besides, Thane was an assassin, a contract killer hired to murder other people; E.G., a service providor hired by others to accomplish their own goals. His worldview of taking lives isn't all that nonsensical.

And yes, I know this is in response to a post that's over 3 years old. It's rare the sheer idiocy, the sheer ignorance and arrogant assumption of a written statement make me respond to a necro thread.