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[ShadowWolf_Kell]

I've been using the Vindicator BR since I picked it up.  Just on a whim, I decided to try out various different combinations with both my team, and myself on the Artifact retrieval mission in Insanity mode.  What I discovered was quite interesting.

First of all, Adrenaline Rush doesn't speed up how quickly you can actually fire a weapon.

Secondly, Adrenaline Rush doesn't speed up how quickly you can reload either.

My tests involved Grunt specced with AoE Concussion Shot, and Krogran Pureblood (for the hitpoint regen) and Garrus specced for Turian Rengade (for the damage) with Lv2 Concussive Shot.

For myself, I opted for Squad Incendiary Ammo and Commando (the power bonus applies to ammo types.)
The only AR mod I have at this point is:  AR Damage 1/5

My first test involved going through the level with Avenger ARs equipped on everyone.  At lower difficulty levels, your squad does a pretty good job of laying down sustained suppressing fire.  When armed with Vindicators, the AI seems to get a little confused at times and simply fires off their special and goes back behind cover if they're taking heavy fire.  I fiddled around with this for quite awhile, just letting them all do their own thing while watching.

Anyway my team didn't do as well as I'd hoped.  The intensity of the damage the Blue Sun mercs were shelling out was just a tad much for my squad.  This applied both at the landing zone as well as inside the facility (there are 3 main stages.)

I did discover something very very interesting, but we'll get to that in a moment.

Quicksave reload, same parameters and everyone armed with Vindicator BRs.  This time around the squad did quite a bit better.  The only alteration I did was squad placement orders at the landing zone.  Inside, I used the same cover spots I'd used in the previous test for continuity.

The transitions throughout the complex stages whent quite a bit easier, though we did get bogged down in a few places.  Overall, it went as expected since this is my default loadout anyway.

Quicksave load #3.  Same parameters as before, except I swapped out my Vindicator for an Avenger.  I started off the LZ pretty much identically as I did the previous run, using the same cover spots since they seemed to work better.

The special thing I'd noticed on the first run is that the Avenger allowed my to cycle through targets, catching them on fire and basically disabling them briefly with incendiary rounds.  While they were panicing, they weren't moving nor were they firing.  I used my pistol with Heavy Disruptor ammo to drop shields quickly, then swapped to my Avenger and provided covering fire for the squad.  Rather than go specifically for headshots, I simply fired a 3-5 round burst at each target without shields.  Effectively, the enemy Blue Sun squad was put out of commission 
while Grunt and Garrus ripped them to shreds.

Inside the complex I repeated the same procedure.  Grunt's AoE concussive shot simply made it easier for me to nail a whole group without suffering return fire.

This run ran the smoothest of all.  In fact, none of us ever even lost shields.

Quicksave load #4.  Identicle setup as #3.  This run I decided to forego using Adreneline Rush extensively and solely for firing off bursts at enemies.  Instead, I tossed in Concussive Shot on my own as well as used quick bursts from behind cover on unshielded enemies.  Didn't even bother using the barrel sight.  Just left click, hold for a second and release.

This last run went even smoother than the third, required less ammo overall and never really had me waiting on cooldowns.  While I did use Adrenaline Rush, I didn't rely on it exclusively to hit targets aside from Blue Suns Commander (I used a Carnifex with Heavy Disruptor ammo to drop his shielding in all of the above tests) and to take out the Blue Suns on the platform leading to the last area.

Now I'd noticed something similar to this with the Revenant, but didn't really consider the Avenger being able to accomplish the same thing.  In fact, when you get the Vindicator, there's really no point in using the Avenger.  These tests changed my mind.

Disruptor Ammo Lv3 and above can accomplish the same thing for Synthetics.  In effect, this gives you some consistantly reliable crowd control without cooldowns.  As for damage, the Avenger seemed to take opponents down almost as quickly as the Vindictor.  The main difference was the clip size.  I could afford to use 5 round bursts and not even reload between Adrenaline Rush cooldowns.  It generally took 3-4 headshot bursts with a Vindicator + Adrenaline Rush to take down the lowliest of the Blue Sun grunt without shields.  That's more than half a clip.

While that might not seem that big of a deal, on this particular mission you get flanked from multiple sides.  It actually came in handy preventing my squad from getting flanked.

My main gripe here is that it's not reliable with your squadmates on Insanity.  You simply can't keep a large group of enemies (especially spaced out) locked down long enough for them to barrage them with sustained fire.  They worked much better with Vindicators.  For the player though, this enables you to proactively control the battlefield without a swarm of biotic powers.

Another gripe I have is ammo for the Vindicator.  I don't care what people say, you can go through a whole area, fire only with Adrenaline Rush going and never miss.  You'll still run into ammo issues in a lot of areas.  This is especially true if you have no way to dropping shielding outside of using a weapon (pistol, sniper, whatever.)  Sure, you can rush ahead to snag a clip or two but that's exposing you and your squad to more fire while breaking a solid defensive position.  No wonder so many people have such a hard time on Insanity.

With the Avenger, I never really had the same problem with ammo.  In fact, I was so bloated with ammo that Insanity felt more like Normal mode.  And no, it wasn't because I became more familiar with the level.  I'd already run it through with Miranda, Jacob and Jack with various biotic permutations, as well as myself with Reave, Nerve, Slam, etc to try out biotic combos.  Some of those runs were quite funny too, but not applicable to these results hehe.  I knew it so well already, that's what gave me the inspiration to actually fiddle around with all this.

I may try all this again on Tali's loyalty (or even recruiting) mission and see how it pans out with Disruptor ammo.  Geth Hunters should make things interesting.
 
Another combo that might be interesting is using Squad Cryo ammo in place of Squad Incendiary, and then using Inferno ammo for myself.  I'd have to drop Heavy Disruptor ammo to squeeze it in.

I haven't really been interested in playing for the sake of the "optimal" group or build combination.  Rather, I've been playing this run solely on preference and for fun.  Come on, Grunt shouting "I...  AM...  KROGAAAN!" and then smashing faces is always fun to watch. 

Jacob was a bit of inspiration for this since it's so hard to find a reason to take him...  especially as a Solider (though Pull + Slam do seem to synergize.)

Modifié par ShadowWolf_Kell, 11 février 2010 - 10:44 .

[infinite bias]

The avenger is a very underrated weapon indeed. Most don't learn how to use it properly and dump it as soon as the vindicator shows up. But properly pulsed it can reach vindicator levels of accuracy without the ammo handicap.



Another thing I've noticed is that soldiers, ironically, of all the classes are probably at the most disadvantage once the vindicator runs out of ammo. Without any real damage powers such as warp or a SMG the other weapons are too specialized to be effective. Sniper rifle: won't work if you're getting flanked. Shotgun: don't bother, for vanguards only. Carnifex: fire rate too slow/ too low ammo capacity for regular firefights.

[Riot Inducer]

Interesting findings! I've always felt similar, I did something similar on Grunt's recruitment mission, in that situation there was more merit to taking the Vindicator however as enemies were often a good distance away and the accuracy difference between the two started to show a lot, still the Vindicator has such a limited ammo supply I found it hard to use it as my main weapon and ended up switching to the pistol and sniper a lot of the time.

[SonsofNorthWind]

I wonder if with the Eviscerator out, and shotguns therefore getting a little more range, whether the soldier is sell suited to Vindicator/Eviscerator/Widow. Seems like enough redundancy that your shouldn't have huge ammot problems.



Avenger is certainly my weapon of choice for Engineer on Insanity.

[ShadowWolf_Kell]

SonsofNorthWind wrote...

I wonder if with the Eviscerator out, and shotguns therefore getting a little more range, whether the soldier is sell suited to Vindicator/Eviscerator/Widow. Seems like enough redundancy that your shouldn't have huge ammot problems.

Avenger is certainly my weapon of choice for Engineer on Insanity.

I don't know.  I haven't actually used it myself yet.  I've been making a chronicle of this playthrough with massive amounts of screenshots.  As such, the Eviscerator looks out of place.  I have let Jacob use it though and it's been a huge improvement for him.

As for the Widow...  Originally I'd intended to get it when I started tihs playthrough.  I've been using the Mantis over the Incisor (haven't gotten the Viper yet) but I'm finding myself using the Mantis less and less.  I think that's mostly due to only getting one shot and then having to wait for Adrenaline Rush to recycle before using it again.

That and it takes multiple shots pretty much to kill anything.  Though to be fair, I haven't been using the headshot visor, nor have I been optimizing my armor specifically to bump damage and whatnot.

At this point, I think I'm going to pick up the Revenant again.  I'll have to wait and see how things go up till that point, and which I seem to need more.  The Collectors on Horizon didn't seem too bad with the Mantis once their barriers were down. One thing I like about the Mantis is that due to it's ammo size, you really can't afford to miss.  It gives me incentive to abort a shot if needbe.  I know that sounds like a double standard compared to the Vindicator but the Mantis isn't my primary weapon.  It's my ace in the hole.

[SmilingMirror]

i like the avenger better on my Sentinel.

[Athenau]

The Geth Pulse Rifle is basically an avenger with a higher ROF (it inherits from the assault rifle entry in coalesced.ini) so if you like the Avenger you might try switching to that when you get it.

The Vindicator's ammo issues are really painful on insanity, but it is a better weapon when you have the ammo.

Modifié par Athenau, 11 février 2010 - 11:48 .

[SmilingMirror]

Athenau wrote...

The Geth Pulse Rifle is basically an avenger with a higher ROF (it inherits from the assault rifle entry in coalesced.ini) so if you like the Avenger you might try switching to that when you get it.

The Vindicator's ammo issues are really painful on insanity, but it is a better weapon when you have the ammo.

It also is weaker against armor, which makes it significantly worse on insanity.

[Riot Inducer]

SonsofNorthWind wrote...

I wonder if with the Eviscerator out, and shotguns therefore getting a little more range, whether the soldier is sell suited to Vindicator/Eviscerator/Widow. Seems like enough redundancy that your shouldn't have huge ammot problems.  

The range improvement on the Eviscerator alone makes it the only shotgun worth taking as a soldier, it has a rather slow RoF, but with a 3 shot clip and damage that is effective against all forms of protection (they weren't kidding when they labeled this thing as an armor-piercing shotgun) this is easily the best shotgun for general use.

[Athenau]

It also is weaker against armor, which makes it significantly worse on insanity.

No, see gameplay data topic the devs posted. The GPR has an armor multiplier of 1.15x. The avenger has an armor multiplier of 1.25x. Per shot the Avenger is 8.6% better against armor, but the GPR fires 17.6% faster, which reverses that deficit.

[Atmosfear3]

Vindicator is not good on higher difficulties due to the sheer amount of bullets you may need to take down certain targets. On the lower difficulties its decent. On my first playthrough as a soldier I didn't even bother, stuck with the avenger the whole game, even forgoing the Revenant in favor of the Widow.



Also, the Geth Pulse Rifle is good on a teammate as long as either you or your second teammate packs good firepower. Absolutely shreds shields.

[SonsofNorthWind]

Athenau wrote...

It also is weaker against armor, which makes it significantly worse on insanity.

No, see gameplay data topic the devs posted. The GPR has an armor multiplier of 1.15x. The avenger has an armor multiplier of 1.25x. Per shot the Avenger is 8.6% better against armor, but the GPR fires 17.6% faster, which reverses that deficit.

According to the data on Gamefaqs, the base damage on the Avenger is 10.8 per round, while Geth Pulse Rifle damage is 3.7.  Avenger ROF is 850, GPR ROF is 1000.  If these are true, shield vs. armor damage % is of negligible importance.  

[infinite bias]

Geth pulse's dps is too low to be worth it for me. The large ammo capacity and no barrel climb is nice but doesn't outweigh its lack of stopping power.

Also, 40 round magazine + 1000 Rof = lots of reloads.

[Zoe Dedweth]

I personally like the avenger as well for the reasons op stated. I will however give honorable mention to the Geth Pulse rifle - with maxed inferno ammo I find it great for ripping biotic barriers/shields/armor apart without having to change weapons. It's als got a tight recoil and very high rate of fire that only gets better the closer your opponent is.

[cruc1al]

Why revive a 3 month old thread about a subject that's been beaten to death multiple times?

Modifié par cruc1al, 29 avril 2010 - 01:29 .

[OniGanon]

Well. Is that worse than making a new topic on a subject that's been beaten to death multiple times?



On the subject: I think the key to making the Vindicator work is to use ALL your weapons, doing your best to use the right weapon for the job at all times, and when that's not a possibilty, knowing how to use the wrong weapon for the job in desperate times.

[cruc1al]

Well... my point was sort of that blaze0000 didn't have any input worth creating a new thread for, and hence not worth reviving an old one either

[Brako Shepard]

Whislt adrenaline rush doesn't speed you up when the enemy slows down, what it does seem to do it increase headshot power. When in adrenaline rush, on most normal enemeies,you can actual fire a brust of ammo at the head with incinerate and it will 9-10 kill them in one go.

[cruc1al]

Brako Shepard wrote...

Whislt adrenaline rush doesn't speed you up when the enemy slows down, what it does seem to do it increase headshot power. When in adrenaline rush, on most normal enemeies,you can actual fire a brust of ammo at the head with incinerate and it will 9-10 kill them in one go.

It increases damage generally by 100%, or 140% for heightened. So, total damage is roughly doubled during AR, not just headshots.

Modifié par cruc1al, 29 avril 2010 - 06:17 .

[Grand_Commander13]

Blaze0000 wrote...

I like the Avenger, never really like the Vindicator with its five burst. Just got to know to fire in short controlled bursts or the accuracy is going to be terrible at long range

If you think the Vindicator has a five-round burst then you've obviously never used it.

A single burst from the Vindicator is devastating, and it's accurate enough for easy headshots before the accuracy upgrade.  The Avenger never even comes close.

[implodinggoat]

The Vindicator is my favorite weapon in the whole game; but on higher difficulty levels (particularly insanity) the ridiculously low ammo reserve causes me to constantly run out of ammo if I try to use it as my primary weapon. I'm damned accurate with it too and even if I fire it only during heightened adrenaline rush and score nothing but headshots, I still run out of ammo all the damned time.



So I basically have to use my Widow as my main weapon then use the Vindicator to polish off the leftovers which is ridiculous since the obscenely limited ammo reserve the game handicaps me with is making me use an assault rifle like a backup sniper rifle.



Bioware needs to release either a patch or some DLC with weapon specific upgrades including one that doubles the Vindicator's ammo reserve. I love my Vindicator; but I really don't think Bioware play tested it on Insanity difficulty cause that low ammo reserve ****s things up and really gets in the way of my fun.

[implodinggoat]

SonsofNorthWind wrote...

I wonder if with the Eviscerator out, and shotguns therefore getting a little more range, whether the soldier is sell suited to Vindicator/Eviscerator/Widow. Seems like enough redundancy that your shouldn't have huge ammot problems.

Thats the loadout I roll with; but on Insanity the tougher enemies take so many shots to take down that the Vindicator still gives you big issues with ammo.  I only use my Vindicator for mid range engagements since whenever an enemy comes close I whip out the Eviscerator and whenever they're at range I use my Widow; but I still run low on ammo constantly and I spend half my time desperately searching the battlefield for clips (I wish the game would gather those for me once I clear all the enemies from an area).  The Vindicator is still a better weapon than the Avenger or any other assault rifle aside from the Revenant since it can drop an enemy at mid range quicker than anything; but the Widow.  

Still it pisses me off that they gimped the Vindicator's ammo so much, I mean having access to assault rifles is supposed to be an advantage for the Soldier; but with the Locust SMG out there SMGs are nearly as powerful as any assault rifle.  All the assault rifles (except the Revenant) need either a boost in damage or in the case of the Vindicator a big boost to its ammo reserve cause even with double its current reserve you'd still have to be accurate with it; but you'd at least be able to fire it outside Adrenaline Rush without running through all your ammo in the blink of an eye.

Modifié par implodinggoat, 30 avril 2010 - 07:58 .

[ObserverStatus]

This is my avenger assault rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

[OniGanon]

You're probably not using your shotgun enough.

If your shotgun doesn't feel like it's constantly low on ammo like the Widow and Vindicator is, you're not using your shotgun enough.

Modifié par OniGanon, 30 avril 2010 - 08:24 .